remysdobys

I found one of the quotes that I have been using to form my opinion. Can't find the whole article online right now, but this was a quote from it.

Two doctors researching the White Doberman from the University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon Canada said, " It was suggested that "albino" Dobermans may have a mutation in tyrosinase, since that is the cause of many types of albinism in humans and mice. However, in a recently completed study, the entire coding sequence of TYR was normal in such Dobermans (GenBankAY336053) and also in blue and Isabella Doberman Pinschers."

remysdobys

mijnschatjedobermans.wetpaint.com/

This is one of the breeders that is and has done much research and is still working with scientist. I have not talked to her just read her website and found a lot of her information informative.

the_discowhore

"reputable breeded" MijnSchatjeDobermans puppy for sale

Un-freaking-BELIEVABLE!

White Doberman Breeder

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RedFawnRising

If you don't "want" to put the time and money into it, then you are not meeting bare minimum standards for evaluating your breeding animals and the results of your breeding program, moving forward.

I frankly don't give much of a crap if someone decides to take up, oh, say--woodworking--and doesn't ever really do things right or achieve much of a useful, sound, quality result--but there sure as heck oughta be a higher bar set when we're talking about bringing yet more dogs into an overcrowded world where taxpayers are footing the bill for killing millions of 'em, every single year.

Hehehe, I absolutely KNEW it was that hot mess where you were getting some of your information.


Also, FYI, tyronisase (sp?) is only one form of albinism.

I think if you search for more scholarly articles, you will find there is solid empirical evidence these dogs are albinos, not "white," and indeed, even simple common sense, looking at them, can say nothing else but that they are indeed albino.

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AgileDobe

Here is the article the quote is from: Australian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute, Inc.

If you are going to try and form a fact based opinion you should probably read the WHOLE quote -

"It was suggested that "albino" Dobermans may have a mutation in tyrosinase, since that is the cause of many types of albinism in humans and mice. However, in a recently completed study, the entire coding sequence of TYR was normal in such Dobermans (GenBankAY336053) and also in blue and Isabella Doberman Pinschers. These results suggest that the P gene may be the cause of this albinism. We did find that these same Isabella and red Dobermans were both homozygous for the TYRP1 proline deletion mutation indicating both are actually brown in base color. "

This post talks about it a little more: http://www.dobermantalk.com/749373-post38.html

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remysdobys

I have read those links before one of them isn't a thread about her. The other is one discussing how bad she feels that she made a mistake. The other is just people dogging her. They aren't helpful links at all. I understand that people have strong opinions about not liking white dobermans. I have not bought and don't know that I will buy one. I haven't bought a doberman yet because I am someone who does tons of research. As I have said I don't feel one way or another I am trying to obtain knowledge, because if I side with the people against whites then I really should be against fawns and blues as well. So maybe I should only buy a black or red.

LindaH

Apparently you don't know the knowledge base of this forum. AND, the "thanks" was in error. Everyone quite laughing at me!!!

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EmilyB

Maybe! Since those are the colors the reputable breeders breed !! Go figure...

remysdobys

"It was suggested that "albino" Dobermans may have a mutation in tyrosinase, since that is the cause of many types of albinism in humans and mice. However, in a recently completed study, the entire coding sequence of TYR was normal in such Dobermans (GenBankAY336053) and also in blue and Isabella Doberman Pinschers. These results suggest that the P gene may be the cause of this albinism. We did find that these same Isabella and red Dobermans were both homozygous for the TYRP1 proline deletion mutation indicating both are actually brown in base color. "

I have read the whole article and noticed that word as well.

remysdobys

Since we have already agreed that reputable is subjective, I don't see your point in that that is the colors they breed. There are some breeders out there who will only breed blacks and reds because they feel as strongly about fawns and blues as people do about whites. From what I understand the German standard of dobermans only allows for reds or blacks. So in many of their opinions I am sure some of your "reputable" breeders aren't reputable.

remysdobys

LindaH I have stated previously that I came here because I knew the knowledge of people here and wanted to glean from it.

the_discowhore

Most reputable breeders do avoid producing dilutes now that there is a genetic test for it.

Breeding albino dobermans is not that only thing that makes that breeder scummy.

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Jazi

There are actually some people who believe that dilute breeders are not doing their best for the breed. I remain neutral on that front, as I have always only wanted a black&rust and didn't realize dobes could also be red until a few years ago. I may fall for a red eventually however I do prefer the blacks. I would not have a dilute or albino as my first choice due to the trouble with skin and coat, but would not turn up any color if it appeared in the right place at the right time in a rescue.

I winced at the site with all the albinos. I wonder how they deal with same sex aggression in that house.

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RedFawnRising

You put the emphasis on the wrong section of words.

There, I fixed it for you.

The "cause of this albinism" is an indication by the scientists involved that the consensus and information so far shows that albinism is in fact what causes these Dobermans to appear "white," but they just haven't yet isolated definitively WHERE in the DNA the albinism originates.

You keep saying you really do your research. That's awesome, but make sure you're reading carefully, considering the value and potential bias of each source you read, and that you are going about your research in a valid and scholarly way.

Otherwise, I can say I'm "researching" the dessert tray, but really I'm just sampling everything that looks good to me.

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remysdobys

Thank you for this. I don't feel that any of your posts have been aggressive or condescending in anyway. I also respect the fact that you have the same opinion about the dilutes pretty much as about the whites.

remysdobys

In my original post I said that scientist have come to the decision so far that they are probably at least partial albinos. So I have said that I know that so far that is what is coming of the research, but since they haven't proven it either way and can't figure it out from what I have read. I am staying open to the subject.

remysdobys

And the reason I am staying open is because when cremellos first appeared in horses they were referred to as albinos because they weren't for sure. It over time was proven scientifically to not be an albino.

PatchworkRobot

It's not the albino dobermans that people hate - it's the people who breed them that knowledgeable doberman people greatly dislike.

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Jazi

I can get condescending and aggressive but it's finals week and I'm too tired for that. Plus I'm a generally pleasant person to deal with.

I don't have exactly the same opinion on the two. Albinos are not allowed by AKC or FCI. Dilutes are allowed by AKC, but not FCI. Albinos should not be bred, and Z-list dobes should all be altered and cease breeding immediately. I remain neutral on the dilute debate, especially since I haven't actually had to deal with their coat or skin issues myself, and they're allowed in this country's conformation shows. Though I have heard it told that they don't do as well in conformation as blacks and reds, nor do natural earred dobes. I'm not a conformation person so I cannot verify the claim. I didn't see any dilutes at the show I went to though.

I would not buy an albino, because by definition their breeders are breeding dogs out of standard and that is hardly a good decision, in my eyes. I do not think I would buy a dilute... really the only dilutes I like are cats and rats and they don't seem to have the same skin and coat issues as dilute dogs, and I don't like the weird grey ethics area on purposely breeding an animal you know is practically guaranteed to have health issues, allowed by standard or not.

That said, I don't think it's very likely that I would buy a red either, because a doberman has always been black&rust in my eyes. But I'm rescuing, so the point is now moot on what I would buy since I won't be adding another dog to my life for a while. If an albino desperately needing a home had turned up instead, I would have looked into skin/coat/eye issues and made the decision on whether I could deal with the health problems or not.

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RedFawnRising

There are indeed all sorts of color-masking genes in mammals.

There are also well-known and well-documented genetic health issues associated with many of them.

Familiar with double merle breedings? Harl to merle?

How about roan-roan and dal-dal, in guinea pigs? Micro-opthalmia?

How about OLWS in horses?

Why would anyone with common sense and ethics support indiscriminate breeding of these pet animals?

This minschatjewhatever person has animals that, sadly, have horrific conformation flaws, and yes that matters. It matters for the individual animal, in terms of soundness issues, and it matters because she continues to breed towards mediocrity, rather than attempting to move forward with quality. That's besides the albinism--these animals should not be bred. Anytime someone breeds primarily for color, the overall quality of the line deteriorates.

Not knowing any better doesn't excuse it. And all the fairy tales and pretty little lies these folks tell themselves don't matter at the end of the day, because anyone knowledgeable can look at the innocent animal and, based on results, come to the conclusion that the breeding should never have taken place.

FYI, I have always had misbegotten rescue Dobermans, adopted from shelters and rescue. I would not reward an albino breeder with any of my money.

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remysdobys

I do know of genetic combos that cause health problems. Most of the ones I know of are in ball pythons, but I know they do exist in mammals as well. But those are this to this breedings. So what about correctly conformed z factor to correctly conformed that have good health backgrounds? I know that not many probably exist but what if someone worked toward that goal?

I do realize that some of her dogs are not properly conformed and that really they shouldn't be bred but not just whites. I was just saying that I got some good information and links to information from her site. I have yet to find a site that has complete unopinionate information. Everyone has a stance on it and they are going to bring to light the information that best suits their belief. Once I find a site that has no opinion and points out that at this point we do not know for sure but states what has been done to test so far, I will be greatly appreciated. Maybe over the next year or two I will be able to gather enough provable information to have that site, one can only wish.

PatchworkRobot

How would one prove that these dogs were conformationally correct?
The reason that titles in conformation shows are important is because it proves that your dog has been judged to be correct by multiple experts.


Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I cannot think of one breed club (a legitimate breed club, not something that a breeder of albino dobermans made up) that doesn't disqualify Albino dobermans.
Even if I knew nothing about dobermans - if I heard that no breed club allowed a dog of that color than I'd guess that there is a pretty general agreement on why they are not allowed (and I'd be sure that it was more than "we just don't like that color").

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remysdobys

Z factor dogs can be shown just not whites. So why is it ok to show blues and fawns? They are proven to have skin issues and the German standard does not allow for them and that is where the doberman originated. So we are telling the people that created the breed that they are wrong.

Jazi

Is DPAA one of said invented clubs? That's the only one I know of that allows all colors.

The way I see it, you have to go back to what standard says and what the founder says. Since Mr Dobermann didn't give us much to go on, standard rules. Standard says no whites, so whites are bad. Standard also says no merles, harlequins, or piebalds by nature so if those suddenly appeared they would be bad too.

remysdobys, Germany also says dobes are no longer to be cropped or docked. America has not fallen suit on that one either, for better or for worse. At one point it's said that dobes needed working ability to be bred, and certainly the doberman of old is no longer the doberman loved by breed enthusiasts today. They were called devil dogs for a reason!

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remysdobys

But who is to say our standard is right? It isn't the same as the German standard. A standard is an OPINION of a group of people. The same people who for right now won't agree to restrict the registration of White and Z factor dobermans. If they think it is such a bad thing why don't they restrict the registration on them to cut back on the demand for them. I know there would still be demand but it definitely would cut it down some. They don't do it because as of right now there is not enough proof that it is bad for the breed, but argument could be made very strongly that blues and fawns are bad for the breed. Breed standards do change, so if the breed standard is perfect then why would it ever need to be changed? So just because the opinion of the AKC says they are bad then that means they are? So what about in the case of pomeranians? Merles are proven to have health issues and if bred to each other have huge issues, but they are allowed. So it is ok for a known color to have issues but one that is still being tested and has proof both ways not to be just because a group of people says? Sorry I see some bad logic in that reasoning. I am not saying that they should be able to be shown. I am just saying all the bashing on them until proper evidence comes to light is not good.

Once again. I don't favor one side over the other yet there is just nobody else standing up for the other side right now so I am bringing up points that are valid in my opinion and others as well (some that are against whites still feel that some of these points are valid and hope that they are discredited soon)