Dobes with Thyroid - levels and dosing - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 05:09 PM
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Huh. My vet never told me to give it on an empty stomach. I've always thrown Lucky's in with his food. I've even told my vet that that's how I give it, and they never said anything.


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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 05:16 PM
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I just heard that recently also. For years I gave it with food and I'm pretty sure my vet knew.

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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DogsR4Life View Post
I asked my previous vet if I could use soloxine and he said he could not order it for me. Is it available in Canada? I'll have to ask my current vet.
Jasmine takes Soloxine. My vet can and does order it for me no problem, and it's cheaper!

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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 03:16 AM
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Dr.dodds told me categorically not with food, and it also says it in her book. However the vets told me with food, but I don't really take much on board of what they say nowadays!

I was under the impression that the calcium and soy binds to the thyroxine so it's not absorbed properly. I remember reading a case study where someone kept increasing the dosage because they were always being tested low because they gave rid meds with a big lump of cheese before dinner.

I don't have the book in front of me ATM, but wheni get home I'll try and find the bit about administration!



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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 12:56 PM
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Ok, so from Dr.Dodds book 'The canine thyroid epidemic' page 108;

''how and when you administer your pets thyroid medication will have a tremendous impact on the success of the treatment.

Because thyroxine binds to calcium and soy in foods, it must be administered at least one hour before food or at least three hours after his meal. If thyroxine is taken with food, it may be absorbed incompletely or too slowly, resulting in low readings on laboratory blood tests. Your vetinarian will inevitably increase your dogs dose as a result of the misleading readings, only to have detests continue to read low due to poor absorption.'



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post #31 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 06:20 PM
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I wouldn't hold that book up as gospel.

The drug is better absorbed on an empty stomach, but its not ineffective when given with food.

Furthermore, its one of the only drugs we actually MONITOR LEVELS on - if the dog has the adequate levels in the system, then that's what counts. If i end up giving slightly more because I dose with food than I would need on an empty stomach to keep my dogs value somewhere, its worth it because reliably giving meds on an empty stomach is very hard for most people (and giving soloxine in food is NOT hard at all).

Same with methimazole with cats - while I don't love all transdermal meds, I know for a fact that the creams I have cat owners apply to the ear DO work - maybe in larger amounts necessary than if the cats were on oral meds, but the fact is I se the change in the cats bloodwork.

Sorry I just don't drink the Dr. Dodds Kool-Aid - she doesn't do any special tests on her own. Her bloodwork is sent out to Antech, the exact same lab that runs my blood tests.


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post #32 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
I wouldn't hold that book up as gospel.

The drug is better absorbed on an empty stomach, but its not ineffective when given with food.

Furthermore, its one of the only drugs we actually MONITOR LEVELS on - if the dog has the adequate levels in the system, then that's what counts. If i end up giving slightly more because I dose with food than I would need on an empty stomach to keep my dogs value somewhere, its worth it because reliably giving meds on an empty stomach is very hard for most people (and giving soloxine in food is NOT hard at all).

Same with methimazole with cats - while I don't love all transdermal meds, I know for a fact that the creams I have cat owners apply to the ear DO work - maybe in larger amounts necessary than if the cats were on oral meds, but the fact is I se the change in the cats bloodwork.

Sorry I just don't drink the Dr. Dodds Kool-Aid - she doesn't do any special tests on her own. Her bloodwork is sent out to Antech, the exact same lab that runs my blood tests.
Thanks for this, Kim. I give Shanoa's thyroid meds with food, because it's easy for her to take them that way. My own vet said it may mean that her dose is slightly higher, but I don't need to be worried about it as long as her levels are good and she has no symptoms. It's just too hard for me to coordinate meds at different times than meals.


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post #33 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 03:27 AM
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Thanks for the info, Kim. It is a lot easier to throw Lucky's pills in his food than remember to give it seperately.

I had a cat that was on the methimazole gel. I probably could have pilled him (for a cat, he was pretty good about pills), but the gel was easier. He just hated having to have his ears cleaned.

ETA: Does the fact that I give Lucky a half of a Glyco-flex II tablet with his evening soloxine pill affect anything?


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post #34 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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When we had Syd retested, our vet said to give her pill exactly four hours before the appointment. We gave that one on an empty stomach, whereas I normally don't. Would that then skew the results?
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post #35 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
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When we had Syd retested, our vet said to give her pill exactly four hours before the appointment. We gave that one on an empty stomach, whereas I normally don't. Would that then skew the results?
My vet just aks me when Lucky had his last pill, so they can take that into account when they evaluate his levels.


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post #36 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 08:17 PM
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Thyroid tests are fasting tests. No food but pill 4-6 hours prior to the blood draw.


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post #37 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Thyroid tests are fasting tests. No food but pill 4-6 hours prior to the blood draw.


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Oh really!! Well, she did eat before the appointment. Crap. Maybe I misunderstood him.
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post #38 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
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I think what was meant was (depending on the laboratory used of course) a laboratory evaluated CBC and Chemistry comes standard with all wellness blood tests and does a full function check including T4 levels.

The only reason I would think a T4 would be sent out by itself would be to double check the levels to be sure that whatever the result was in fact was conclusive to the disease.

I have heard of a pre and post panel, but have never seen one run. Would you test pre medicating and post medicating to see if medication needs to be adjusted?

Otherwise, testing every six months is crucial to being sure the medication is working properly.

I guess you can say I just chimed in...
I am late to post but I will respond just in case someone refers to this post.

To clarify; yes, we added a T4 test to the wellness blood test and got a below normal result. Our vet requested a complete thyroid panel to confirm that he was hypo (through IDEXX)
Once they are on meds and controlled (T4 within range) he has us do pre and post T4 testing (twice-yearly or yearly at a minimum)

I will explain the pre and post T4 testing. The dog is fasted and blood is drawn before giving the am dose of medication (this will give the lowest T4 level). The am dose is then given to the dog and a second blood sample is drawn 4-6 hours later (which gives a good idea of the high end of the curve)
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post #39 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I will explain the pre and post T4 testing. The dog is fasted and blood is drawn before giving the am dose of medication (this will give the lowest T4 level). The am dose is then given to the dog and a second blood sample is drawn 4-6 hours later (which gives a good idea of the high end of the curve)
Thanks, I am going to have him do that when I next take her in. I think her thyroid is still a problem because I just CANNOT get any weight off her.
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post #40 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 07:29 PM
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Ivan is ~82 lbs. and on .8mg Thyrozine twice daily. He's going in for his first recheck on Saturday. Not sure if they'll do the full panel again or not. Once Ivan is stablized I need to shop around and see where the best place is to buy the stuff. I already know 1-800-PetMeds is half the price of my vet.
Please be careful. My vet warned me that 1800 Pet Meds was busted many times for selling fake medications, ie heartworm!
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post #41 of 50 (permalink) Old 04-18-2013, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
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I was chatting with Deb Romans today about Syd's thyroid treatment. My vet put her on .8mcg of Levothyroxine once daily. Deb said it should be twice a day.

I have to teach my vet quite often about dobe things (he's really the best guy I've found so far so I'm pretty patient, since he's open to new stuff).

She also mentioned we want to not just be on the low side of normal but mid range.

What drug is your dobe on, what is the dosage and how often is it given?

Can you arm me with some doberman specific info I can pass along to him?

How often do you recheck levels? Do you have to run the Dodds test each time?

How long before I should see "Ole Lightning" break into a run ?

(After recovery from spay of course)
Rocket is on Thyroxine, .7 mg twice a day. My vet likes to test once a year and adjust - his first recheck is coming up soon.

I saw an improvement within 6 weeks of starting his treatment - he was diagnosed when he was roughly 2 years old.


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post #42 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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A bump for a question:

My vet put Syd on meds without a full panel, actually without any panel. I found out the lab lost the results.

She came back high on a T4 test, I asked about a full panel and he said it was a moot point now.

I've been trying to get into a new vet, but I guess I am too complicated...

My question is this - once a dog is on thyroid meds, can you still do a full panel or do they have to come off the meds first?

I'm probably going to have to try Edmonton for a dobe vet I guess.
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post #43 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 11:39 AM
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I think??? you can do a full panel as long as you are six hours post dose.


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post #44 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 11:49 AM
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When Ivan's levels were retested by Dodds, after two in-house tests by my vet of just T4 I believe, she did the thyroid panel 4 test.


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post #45 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 11:52 AM
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I knew I read this somewhere. . .

On Hemopet's website, FAQ -

"A minimum of 6 weeks is needed off of thyroxine before an accurate assessment of basal thyroid capacity can be made."


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post #46 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 12:02 PM
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Well, I know it's heresy around here, but I'm not on the Dr. Dodds bandwagon. I'd just ask your vet to run a full panel and see where Syd is at with the current meds.


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post #47 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 12:12 PM
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What I'm saying is Dodds did do a four panel test (i.e. only missing the antibody portion) on Ivan while he was already on medication.

I just pointed out the FAQ because I remembered reading it somewhere and am not sure what the goal of the question was. To accurately determine basal levels or accurately determine what dose her dog should be on.

Dr. Dodds actually lowered Ivan's dose (initial dose was OK'd by my vet based on T4 tests) after running the Thyroid Panel 4 (includes T4, Free T4, T3, and Free T3).


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post #48 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lestat1978 View Post
What I'm saying is Dodds did do a four panel test (i.e. only missing the antibody portion) on Ivan while he was already on medication.

I just pointed out the FAQ because I remember reading it somewhere and am not sure what the goal of the question was. To accurately determine basal levels or accurately determine what dose her dog should be on.

Dr. Dodds actually lowered Ivan's dose (initial dose was OK'd by my vet based on T4 tests) after running the Thyroid Panel 4 (includes T4, Free T4, T3, and Free T3).
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post #49 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestat1978 View Post
What I'm saying is Dodds did do a four panel test (i.e. only missing the antibody portion) on Ivan while he was already on medication.

I just pointed out the FAQ because I remembered reading it somewhere and am not sure what the goal of the question was. To accurately determine basal levels or accurately determine what dose her dog should be on.

Dr. Dodds actually lowered Ivan's dose (initial dose was OK'd by my vet based on T4 tests) after running the Thyroid Panel 4 (includes T4, Free T4, T3, and Free T3).
I guess my question now is, what does the full panel accomplish at this point? If her post T4 is high, she isn't hypothyroid anymore.

When you do a full panel, is the end result any different, i.e. the dog is put on thyroid medication?

Maybe it is a moot point at this stage.

Her post T4 was 66.8 with normal 39-64 noml/L.
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post #50 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 05:04 PM
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I'm not sure the Thyroid Panel 5 would be req'd. The TgAA can be used to see if a symptom free dog has Autoimmune Thyroiditis which can progress to Hypothyroidism, so it would be useful for testing a potential breeding animal, but not sure of its ultimate value to a dog already exhibiting symptoms.

I have to get Ivan to OB. . . . but if I think of anything else relevant I'll type it up tomorrow.


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