Ivan is Hypothyroid - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

**MeadowCat** · 09-20-2012, 10:01 PM

For Shanoa, Control Unleashed has been truly miraculous. Even before the right drug combo she was able to pass the Delta therapy dog test, something I never thought she could do. I cried

She's exponentially better now than she was then, too. Looking back I just wish I had gone to the veterinary behaviorist years before I did.

**EmilyB** · 09-20-2012, 10:04 PM

I just hope Syd will get some energy once she's on thyroid meds...

Thyroid issues can cause such a multitude of problems.

Amelia_ · 09-21-2012, 01:16 AM

Just a quick question; is hypothyroidism always accompanied by coat problems or will some cases omit this symptom?

lestat1978 · 09-21-2012, 08:37 AM

My understanding is the dog could by hypothyroid and showing symptoms without the coat being dramatically affected. One article I read talked about the coat being a little dull, but not anywhere near to being in the bad state typically associated with hypothyroidism.

Rosemary · 09-21-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia_

Just a quick question; is hypothyroidism always accompanied by coat problems or will some cases omit this symptom?

My Rattie had a thick, soft, shiny coat when he was diagnosed, but he was shedding a bit more than usual. His diagnosis was a "side effect" of the bloodwork that was done when he had pancreatitis.

Dictator · 09-21-2012, 09:36 AM

DPCA on Thyroid

thyroid

Mateo · 09-22-2012, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeadowCat

I'd be cautious in attributing his anxiety and behavioral stuff solely to thyroid function. Are you working on that stuff separately? What techniques do you use?

Agree. So many factors on behavior. And it's easy to treat. But some smart people will tell you thyroid probs are more insidious and can potentially lead to other problems. In particular, check liver enzymes periodically.

My hypo boy had coat loss down the spine and a brief period of behavioral change - not aggression -- which was quickly fixed by the soloxine.

**EmilyB** · 09-23-2012, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lestat1978

My understanding is the dog could by hypothyroid and showing symptoms without the coat being dramatically affected. One article I read talked about the coat being a little dull, but not anywhere near to being in the bad state typically associated with hypothyroidism.

My girl's coat is beautiful so it never occurred to me to check for thyroid, but my vet suggested it because of her weight.

It remains to be seen if the hyprothyroidism might resolve after the false pregancy and subsequent spay.

KissNme · 09-23-2012, 04:35 AM

Thanks for sharing the info. I hope the medication works and takes care of the problem. I hope you are doing okay.

lestat1978 · 09-25-2012, 09:22 AM

So last Wednesday was Ivan's first dose of his thyroid replacement. We also had a PR event with a lot of dogs that night. I took Ivan in for only a little bit for a photo. The one dog I let Ivan greet, Levi Blue, who is a DDR dog, Ivan got snippy with. Levi Blue is not a dog to cause a reaction. In terms of people he was whipping around anytime someone brushed too close behind him to see what was going on, but that was the extent of it.

So on Saturday we had DDR's reunion. Now for this event Ivan did get to spend some time in his XPen taking it all in, so it's not an apples to apples comparison between events, but he did really well. He didn't have a single bad reaction - even when a dog growled at him he didn't react. He had people he'd never met before petting him and was fine - no avoiding, staring, etc.

The thing that really caught my attention though. . . is when he was sniffing Zeus through the XPen, he wagged his tail. Zeus is the first dog Ivan ever got snippy with, so I was happy with his reaction. But the tail wagging is what got me really excited.

I can't honestly say what Ivan was like as a small puppy when everything was "good" with other dogs because I wasn't paying that close attention. But at some point I realized Ivan didn't wag his tail. Not with me. Not when greeting other dogs. The ONLY time he wagged his nub was when he was harrassing my cats. For a while I would ask him why he never wagged his nub for me and then I'd scratch on either side of it to get him to move it back and forth - LOL!

He did start wagging his nub with me when we were playing prior to thyroid meds, but he still never wagged it when greeting other dogs. He did it a couple of times at the reunion - even with a bigger male who I would have thought he'd react to. Sooo happy over that.

Then on Sunday we had a another PR event to attend at a dog show. Once again Ivan had time to take it all in. New breeds of dogs definitely got his attention, and there was one guy he sniffed and then backed away from, but once again no over the top reaction to any dog or person. The only dogs he got to meet face to face were puppies (1 Lab and 2 Aussies), which he LOVES.

So it's not concrete proof of a change - Ivan's had one of days before where he was completely fine even prior to his thyroid diagnosis, but it keeps me hopeful.

P.S. Not that a lot of show people were coming over to our booth - they had other things going on, but one "sour" observation - I didn't get any Dobe people come over and comment on Ivan doing SAR work, but I did get a couple come over and one of them comment on his natural ears disdainfully. Seriously? Not very couth.

Asmit · 09-25-2012, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lestat1978

P.S. Not that a lot of show people were coming over to our booth - they had other things going on, but one "sour" observation - I didn't get any Dobe people come over and comment on Ivan doing SAR work, but I did get a couple come over and one of them comment on his natural ears disdainfully. Seriously? Not very couth.

For some reason that doesn't surprise me

Why in the world would you save a rescue dog and become involved with a serious form of training and work when you could buy a prettier dog to prance around the show ring?

(No intent to disrespect other show people, but I have gotten the cold shoulder from doberman show people before as well.)

Just a note on the aggression you all were talking about earlier in the thread. I did notice a difference in behavior with the thyroid. Right before being diagnosed he became much grumpier, less interested in others, more snappy with the other dogs (including dogs he lived with), and generally more likely to growl at people walking by the house etc. Now he was never reactive or anywhere near as bad as you all were talking about, but he was much more snippy and seemed to have a shorter fuse.

I would not think any significant behavior change would result from thyroid supplementation.

Amelia_ · 09-25-2012, 10:47 AM

Glad Ivan is doing well, whether it's down to the meds or not

Quote:

Originally Posted by lestat1978

P .S. Not that a lot of show people were coming over to our booth - they had other things going on, but one "sour" observation - I didn't get any Dobe people come over and comment on Ivan doing SAR work, but I did get a couple come over and one of them comment on his natural ears disdainfully. Seriously? Not very couth.

I wouldn't worry about this, it's not just show people it's just people in general. Normally the people who are first to have a moan if someone says something negative bout their c/d dog

I've had quite a few people walk up to me and say nothing but 'Dobermanns look horrible with tails, I'd never have one with a tail' but I've also had plent of people say they much prefer them. Some people just have to speak every inane through that comes into their head!

I for one think he's gorgeous and demand you share more pictures

lestat1978 · 09-25-2012, 10:56 AM

Here are some pics of Ivan modeling his fall coat.

http://www.trendytailsbypatsy.net/

eegreen · 09-25-2012, 08:29 PM

Love the Star Wars coat!

Sent from my iPhone using PG Free

lestat1978 · 09-27-2012, 10:34 AM

Ivan had a good night at obedience last night. No over the top reaction to people or dogs - and some of the dogs could have definitely triggered a reaction. Although I did lose his focus a couple of times, I think it was better than it has been in the past. However, it's been a few months since we've done an OB class like this so it could be my imagination, him getting older, etc. Regardless, after three events with no bad reactions I'm starting to get a little confidence in him again.

Amelia_ · 09-27-2012, 01:10 PM

Glad to hear your training session went well!

I actually had Rupert tested the other day from a combination of noticing a change in behavour and reading this thread actually. I am very familliar with the symptoms of hypothyroidism, but I guess it didnt really occur to me to test Rupert so young. Like yourself, over the last few months I've noticed a behavour change in him which I had put down to him maturing more (he's 15 months now) and I was really prompted that your Ivan is about the same age as Rupert.

Anyway, his results came back today as low normal and I just wanted to say 'thank you!' for posting your experiences

Gonna create my own thread with details so as not to hijack

lestat1978 · 09-27-2012, 01:28 PM

I'm so glad this thread helped.

If Ivan's coat hadn't been getting so thin, I probably wouldn't have pushed for an "answer" or gotten him tested. The thin coat was like the final straw.

Plus, since I want to do SAR with him I've been paying very close attention to his behavior. Had he been "just a pet" where he wasn't going to events all the time or would ultimately be looking for strangers, I probably wouldn't have pursued it either.

I can't also help but wonder - Ivan's been getting a lot of training since I got him (Whether it has been the best/most effective form can be debated.). What would have happened to him in a regular pet home? Without the training and socialization we've done (Which I'm admittedly taking for granted is more than the average pet home.) - add possible thyroid involvement, would he have ended up in rescue or worse because of behavioral issues? Would the avg. pet home have continued to chalk it up to other things, like I was initially doing, and not put it all together?

And I realize the true results have yet to be determined, but if I've done nothing other than prevent stress on his other organs/systems by getting his thyroid levels to the appropriate level, it's been well worth it.

lestat1978 · 10-04-2012, 10:13 AM

Ivan definitely has more energy.

It had gotten to the point while I was getting ready in the mornings Ivan would go from the bed to the couch. From the couch to outside and then back to the couch. From the couch to breakfast and back to the couch. From the couch to outside to the couch. And to get him to go out the second time I had to go standover him to get him moving.

I had chalked it up to him getting older and settling. However, when I started wondering about his thyroid I wondered if he was really that "settled" in the mornings or if he was just tired?

He'll still lay down on the couch every morning, but he's also up more. "Helping" me shower, going to the basement while I take care of the cats, knocking my crock pot off the counter

, etc. So he's not bouncing off the walls are anything, but definitely more alert/active.

He had another obedience class last night so I decided to do some dog introductions and see how he reacted. First dog he met was a smaller male. He didn't wag his nub, which kinda bummed me out, but everything was okay until the other dog tried to jump up and put his feet on Ivan. Ivan' had an "Oh no you didn't" reaction.

I then let him meet a female. Again, no nub wags. As the other dog started to walk away Ivan dropped into a play bow and I think since he did it so "dramatically" it startled her and she reacted with some growling.

As a handler, should I walk away immediately if Ivan is stiff and not wagging his nub? Should I just make introductions quicker and then walk away? Should I just not do face to face introductions with him leashed? Maybe do introductions by walking the dogs together first and then letting each sniff the back end of the other without the face to face?

He is fine being around other dogs. It's just the face to face intros. where we seem to still have problems. If we're heeling, I can do figure eights around those same dogs all day long.

I continue to believe there's been an improvement with his attention and focus. He's less distractable. I've tried training the place command on three previous occassions and he wasn't thinking - just focused on the treat. Last night after a few reps. it was obvious he got it. He went from "OMG will this get me a treat, will this get me a treat, give it to me, give it to me" to thinking and quickly figured it out.

As we were leaving the door swung open and there were two guys standing there talking. I thought it was a potential moment for Ivan to react because the guys were there "suddenly" and it was dark, when he tends to be more alert. He barely acknowledged them.

As Ivan's reaction to people are my biggest concern, I'm happy that we are three weeks in and not a single bad reaction to a person. We have another PR event this weekend, so we'll see how it goes.

lestat1978 · 10-24-2012, 12:53 PM

Ivan goes on Nov. 10th to have his thryoid levels rechecked.

Ivan did meet a new, smaller, female playmate off leash about a week ago. He did great meeting her. Wonder how big of a difference off leash makes for Ivan????

Ivan did have one bad day, but it happens to correspond with me running out of his pill and giving it to him 8 hours later than normal. Both times he growled was at my parents campsite, which he was at for the first time, and at people a short distance away.

The one guy he reacted to he later met while we were out walking, and although not "pet me, pet me" he never raised his hackles or growled. He even went up to the guy when he called Ivan's name.

The second guy he saw initially on our walk from a distance and didn't react to him at all, even though the guy did try and talk to me. When this guy later walked past the campsite though, Ivan growled.

Was Ivan growling inappropriately? Was he growling because he was protective of "home/campsite?" Was he growling because I was late giving him his pill?

Two subsequent very good events though. The last time I took Ivan to the vet for his blood draw to be tested for thyroid issues, he immediately fixated on a woman and was growling even before the door finished swinging open. This time there was a dog right in front of him and several people around and Ivan didn't have any sort of negative reaction.

Prior to starting on his thyroid meds, Ivan also growled at a friend's grandson. He had seen the grandson before, but not in a while. Just this past Sunday Ivan saw a similar aged boy that he also doesn't see regularly and was perfectly fine going right up to him. Not at all skittish.

Not apples to apples necessarily, but 1 bad day versus several good days/encounters, I'm still very optimistic.

One PR event that I was really looking forward to going to because of Ivan's issues and seeing how he did I ended up not being able to make. However, we have another one coming up this Sunday, so I'm anxious to see how he does.

In terms of coat I'd say Ivan's may actually be a little worse in terms of being thin. I did read somewhere that the coat may actually look worse initially as it's shed, but then improve after several months. We shall see.

Lori Z · 10-24-2012, 01:24 PM

That is just how Eli's coat got and he is a black also. He smelled too. He has been on thyroid medication for almost a year and his coat is thick and gorgeous, he doesn't scratch or smell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lestat1978

Here are a couple of pictures of Ivan's coat. Keep in mind that from two feet away no one thought he had a thin coat. And even if I looked directly down on his back, if the lighting wasn't right, I couldn't even really spot the thin coat myself. It was much easier to notice if you looked up the length of his back - tail to neck - then directly down on it.

Make sure to click to see at least the first image full size as it's clearer and easier to definitely see his skin.

ZeldaRules · 10-24-2012, 02:32 PM

I should get prime tested. He has some coat thinning in certain spots that wasn't so thin before. Back of thighs and chest mainly.

As for face to face introductions, i try not to let it happen. Prime has been attacked before and he will sometimes react very aggressively if the wrong dog meets him face to face. It's more appropriate to let one dog sniff the other's backside first and then vice versa, also walking them together helps.

lestat1978 · 11-12-2012, 02:16 PM

I got Ivan's recheck results today. His thyroid levels are good. Of course I wasn't available to actually answer the phone to ask a question, so what is the recommended interval for retesting now that his dose has been established? Yearly?

Ivan's coat is still horrible. And I've noticed his bald back legs have an odor to them I don't notice where is coat is thicker. Is this still thyroid coat issues or potentially something else going on?

Amelia_ · 11-12-2012, 02:18 PM

Glad to hear Ivans levels are good

I've read testing every 6 months and that the hair can take quite a long time to grow back, but I'm new too this too as you know.

Im going to order Dr.Dodds book on hypothyroidism, I've been told its a great read.

lestat1978 · 12-04-2012, 11:32 AM

2.5 months in Ivan finally had a bad reaction to a person. We were walking in a local town at night and had passed several people without issue. We were about to pass a guy walking towards us when he suddenly reached out because he wanted to pet Ivan. Ivan jumped back and was growling. Ivan was easily controlled, but obviously afraid.

And of course 30 seconds later a woman and her son wanted to meet Ivan, who was still visibly nervous. Thankfully they communicated with me before approaching Ivan. I was able to give them treats and Ivan very cautiously went up to them and took the treats and let the woman pet him.

I don't fault Ivan for not wanting to be pet or backing away from the man, but I wish he hadn't growled. And I wish he would have recovered faster.

I do think Ivan is easily spooked at night. The first, and only time, that Ivan's been at night training he growled at the victim when he spotted her. (Pre-meds FYI) This was a woman he'd been around a lot beforehand and since with no issues. At the time one of my teammates commented that dogs can act different at dusk and dawn and that's probably all it was.

On a positive note we've had some new people training with us (all women) and Ivan hasn't had an issue what-so-ever going up to them.

I've also been in touch with the closest instructor I can find for a CU class. Unfortunately she doesn't have any Saturday classes as of right now. She said she has others interested in a Saturday class, so hopefully something will come of it.

lestat1978 · 12-24-2012, 08:12 AM

Ivan has been shivering a lot lately. Is 68 deg. too cold for a Dobe or is this a sign his Thyrozine dosage needs increased?