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Old 02-19-2012, 02:11 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
Wow, how ignorant. I'm sorry that I value my dog's health and don't get the ickies at seeing dog balls. It's natural, there's nothing perverted about keeping your dog intact for the benefit of his health and his drive. I'm sorry that canine nudity bothers you... Personally, I don't spend enough time looking at my dog's genitals to be bothered by them.
Yes, the original author of this post did sound perverted to me which is why I responded to his post*

And I dont consider a dog with cancer completely healthy???
I would rather neuter my dog when he is healthy rather than wait until he has testicular or prostate cancer at an older age with greater risks. Its just a preventative measure. Similar to routine vaccinations, dental cleanings, heartworm, intestinal parasite and flea prevention This in no way shape or form makes me ignorant, thanks.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:29 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DobieGal15 View Post
I never said you or anyone who doesnt neuter is irresponsible. I have my own opinion and am for spaying and neutering, thats all. Not all vets are created equal, that said, I know MANY vets that practice in ways that MANY people dont agree with. My post was mainly directed to the author of the orginal post as far as "dog nudity" and the poster being so into his dogs balls and pride, with the addition of my opinion on spaying and neutering.

I just find it more responsible to neuter a male dog at as opposed to being in a bad situation with cancer staring you in the face and your dog is either too old or not nearly as healthy as he should be to have surgery.
The original post was 3/22/2011 I doubt the poster is reading this.

Those who choose Not to neuter a Male dog also find it more responsible and better for their Males health

Have you read the Studys Pro/Con with respect to spay/neuter the most recent that I know of is 2010.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:35 PM   #103 (permalink)
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There are many threads on spay/neutering but only you can make the decision as to what you feel is best for your situation.

The DPC, Tappan Zee had a guest speaker on this topic which, IMO, is very enlightening.

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Originally Posted by Marylyn
We Are Pleased to Present Our 2011 Dinner Speaker
Ms. Parvene Farhoody, MA, CABC, CDBC, CPDT-KA
Presenting Altered States: Behavioral Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs
Spaying and neutering domestic dogs is generally accepted as a relatively benign procedure and is routinely accepted as a means to correct behaviorial abnormalities.
IS THERE ANY SCIENTIFIC DATA TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS?

Ms. Farhoody says there is not. She examined the data from 10,839 dogs evaluated by the Canine Behavior and Research Questionaire. When carefully studying the data from this massive study, she
found many contradictions to the prevailing view the neutering positively effects behavior. Among the findings were that neutered dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable and less trainable than
intact dogs.

Come join us for an incredibly enlightening presentation by a gifted, dynamic speaker on a topic that will challenge what you have believed to be true. She will present data pertinent to the Doberman
Pinscher as well as other breeds. Be prepared to have your world rocked!!!!


More info on Parvene, from personal recollection:
Parvene Farhoody is an animal behaviorist and dog trainer working in Manhattan. Her website for her business is Parvene Farhoody - Professional Animal Training Consultant Her thesis synopsis about which she will speak is at http://dpctz.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf as well as many other places online.

In her time as a trainer, when faced with a dog with a behavior problem, Parvene would recommend neutering or spaying. She would then continue to train the dogs after surgery. She was noticing that behavior did not get better after S/N, and in some cases got worse.

Parvene then somehow, for her Masters thesis at Hunter College, was able to access the data collected in the C-Barq questionnaire. This can be found at C-BARQ: Canine Behavioral Assessment & Research Questionnaire

C-BARQ is a series of questions to be filled out by dog owners and it covers behavior, aggression, trainability, and in collecting data, it also collects data on whether the dogs being described by their owners are spayed or neutered. Information on close to 11,000 dogs had been collected by C-Barq at the time that Parvene began her work. Any one of us can participate and in fact, I have done C-BARQ survey with three of my dogs, so their data is included in Parvene’s study, as part of that close to 11,000 dogs.

What Parvene found when analyzing C-BARQ was that there is a higher incidence of behavioral problems in dogs who are spayed and neutered. She further breaks this down into WHEN the surgery was done, her conclusions support leaving dogs intact unless there is a medical reason to neuter and leaving bitches intact as long as possible as the medical benefits of spaying are not as great as they may lead you to believe.

Parvene also did work with Christine Zink, DVM on bone length and S/N. They found longer bone lengths in dogs who were altered early, before closure of growth plates. She wonders in her talk if perhaps this may be a reason there is SUCH a high incidence of bone cancer in Rottweilers (I think she picked that breed out). Paraphrasing her talk at PCOTC, if you have a rottweiler, do not spay or neuter unless you absolutely MUST at any age. The data presented in the paper I attach is just preliminary and does not discuss her theory of bone cancer being connected to S/N delay in bone plate closure.

There is a paper by Laura Sanborn, written in 2007, http://dpctz.com/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf which is a review of work done to show whether spaying or neutering really and truly is better for our dogs medically. The bottom line is that it is not. Spaying early does not effect incidence of mammary cancer any more than spaying at the age of 3. Neutering does not protect against anything medically except maybe enlarged prostate.

The information Parvene collected changed her from an across the board pro-neutering trainer to one who appreciates that we are not doing our dogs, our training program, any favors by spaying or neutering at any age.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:53 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DobieGal15 View Post
Yes, the original author of this post did sound perverted to me which is why I responded to his post*

And I dont consider a dog with cancer completely healthy???
I would rather neuter my dog when he is healthy rather than wait until he has testicular or prostate cancer at an older age with greater risks. Its just a preventative measure. Similar to routine vaccinations, dental cleanings, heartworm, intestinal parasite and flea prevention This in no way shape or form makes me ignorant, thanks.
When did I say anyone was ignorant for neutering their dog? I never did. There are just as many risks with neutering as there are with leaving a make intact. It's up to the owner to assess those risks and come to a conclusion. What's ignorant is the implication that those who choose not to neuter are guilty of bestiality.

Yearly vaccinations are associated with several health risks, by the way, with no real benefit. Not to go off-topic.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:57 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
When did I say anyone was ignorant for neutering their dog? I never did. There are just as many risks with neutering as there are with leaving a make intact. It's up to the owner to assess those risks and come to a conclusion. What's ignorant is the implication that those who choose not to neuter are guilty of bestiality.

Yearly vaccinations are associated with several health risks, by the way, with no real benefit. Not to go off-topic.
I will agree to disagree with you. I believe in prevention and support spaying and neutering. Period.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:02 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DobieGal15 View Post
I just find it more responsible to neuter a male dog at as opposed to being in a bad situation with cancer staring you in the face and your dog is either too old or not nearly as healthy as he should be to have surgery.
You understand that the risk of testicular cancer in unaltered dogs is estimated as not more than one percent, right? And if such cancer should strike your dog, he can be neutered. Bone cancer on the other hand, is a significant risk in neutered dogs, and a dog with bone cancer will usually die from it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:18 PM   #107 (permalink)
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I posted a link earlier to the most recent study I'm aware of in regard to the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay and neuter in dogs, but I figure I'll go on and post here the simple lists it provides, though I highly recommend reading the entirety of the article.

Males:
Quote:
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
Females:
Quote:
On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (≤0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
And of course there's all the risks associated with any invasive procedure, but I'm assuming that risk is negligible if you take your dog to a trustworthy vet, as opposed to a mobile spay clinic or humane society.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:23 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DobieGal15 View Post
Yes, the original author of this post did sound perverted to me which is why I responded to his post*

And I dont consider a dog with cancer completely healthy???
I would rather neuter my dog when he is healthy rather than wait until he has testicular or prostate cancer at an older age with greater risks. Its just a preventative measure. Similar to routine vaccinations, dental cleanings, heartworm, intestinal parasite and flea prevention This in no way shape or form makes me ignorant, thanks.
You might find this interesting A population study of neutering status as a risk fa... [Prostate. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI My vet also spoke to me about testicular cancer and prostrate issues, he said both are curable if caught in good time, and we could neuter ASAP if either were to occur.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:25 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam&macksmom View Post
There are many threads on spay/neutering but only you can make the decision as to what you feel is best for your situation.

The DPC, Tappan Zee had a guest speaker on this topic which, IMO, is very enlightening.
You are an asset to this forum, always doing your research and contributing excellent information. Thank you for this.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:37 PM   #110 (permalink)
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You are an asset to this forum, always doing your research and contributing excellent information. Thank you for this.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvbirds View Post
You might find this interesting A population study of neutering status as a risk fa... [Prostate. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI My vet also spoke to me about testicular cancer and prostrate issues, he said both are curable if caught in good time, and we could neuter ASAP if either were to occur.
Thank you for the article, interesting read.

I still will not tell anyone that it would be okay to leave their pet intact nor would I give documentation supporting that claim. While I know that I am of the most responsible pet owners, I do not know the strangers that may ask for help on such things like forums and I will confidently give them my honest opinion on what THEY should do, in this case neuter. This is certainly a personal preference and for the reputable, caring, and responsible dobie lovers (to say the least) on here and elsewhere, I am sure the majority will make the right decision for their own pets. As for giving recommendations to others, I feel much more comfortable encouraging spay/neuter.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:34 PM   #112 (permalink)
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My first Male developed an enlarged prostae at the age of 8/9. I brought him to the Vet and was told don't worry and he took him into the back.

When he brought him out I asked what he had done and was told he had given him a Female Hormone shot which shrinks the prostate. Back then Vets were Not Pro Neuter. My Male continued to get a Female Hormone Shot once a year and lived to the age of 13

I asked my Vet at the time a few years ago what the Cons for spay/neuter were and he told me in Vet school they were not taught there were any Cons.

If, Vet Schools do not teach there are Cons to Spay/Neuter there will be only One opinion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:18 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinK View Post
Because if you believe something to be true, you look at things differently. If you told someone all of their life that hamburgers gave you bad migraines, and many other people told them the same thing, they would probably be scared to eat a hamburger. They would probably take a small bite of hamburger, and then think that their head was starting to hurt.

It's the same concept as to why placebo medicines work in medical tests, and many people claim to feel better even though they're not taking any medicine.
Interestingly hamburgers do give my son migraines and vomiting, he cannot eat them.

I know of a BT that actually got worse after he had his nuts removed. He is an exception rather than a rule but testosterone does also have calming effects.

Males produce more testosterone than females but they also use more so end up with a similar level. It is an imbalance in testosterone like all imbalances that causes grief.
Most Male dobermans are not mating so may have a possible build up of testosterone (?) thats my theory anyway
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:13 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Most Male dobermans are not mating so may have a possible build up of testosterone (?) thats my theory anyway
This is an old thread, and now has wandered pretty off-topic...

Hormone levels are controlled and maintained by complex feedback loops and (in animals which reproduce seasonally) environmental influences (temperature, photoperiod, etc.). Testosterone is not used up in the act of breeding, so the failure to breed would not cause an elevation of testosterone levels. It looks like almost all of the work on this has been done on various species of birds, but I did find one reference to Orangutans which found no difference in male or female hormone levels between breeding and non-breeding populations.

That's a long way of saying I don't think your theory will hold water LOL!
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