CVI Test??

Linda H · 08-07-2007, 03:01 PM

Last night I got to thinking about CVI and wondered why breeders don't xray their breeding stock for it. When my dobe and her daughter had CVI it showed up very plainly on the xrays.
It looks like this could be something that could be checked for before breeding. I know it is not proven that it is hereditary, tho I believe it is a very big part of it, if not the direct cause.

**velmadobe** · 08-07-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda H

Last night I got to thinking about CVI and wondered why breeders don't xray their breeding stock for it. When my dobe and her daughter had CVI it showed up very plainly on the xrays.
It looks like this could be something that could be checked for before breeding. I know it is not proven that it is hereditary, tho I believe it is a very big part of it, if not the direct cause.

It is an interesting thought. I've always been told that CVI can be very difficult to see on an x-ray even when they are accutely affected with it. I guess it really depends on the dog. I don't have too much experience with it although my first Doberman was diagnosed with it at age 5. She lived to 11 and occasionally had flair ups with it but we could always get her symptoms calmed down with a shot of pred. In retrospect, I've always wondered if it were actually something else that was misdiagnosed and maybe could have been helped with acupuncture or some other therapy. Those were the days when I just accepted what the vet told me as the truth. I know better now.

I'm not that well read on CVI, but would be interested in reading what other people know about it and their experiences with it - especially breeders.

MaryAndDobes · 08-07-2007, 05:46 PM

AFAIK, the only definitive way to diagnose CVI is with a myelogram and it's a somewhat difficult procedure you wouldn't put a dog through for no reason. Not that pre-breeding screens are no reason, but it's still something you'd only do if a vet were fairly convinced there was reason to, and I believe that a lot of myelograms are done in conjunction with a treatment plan (ie surgical intervention, gold bead implantation, etc) - you'd do it all at the same time.

Five of my dogs were involved with a CVI study at the University of Guelph. I think they were the first of the "normal" study group that they examined. They asked for Dobermans between the ages of 4 and 7, I think it was. I had five at the time in that age frame so volunteered them all. They had neuro work-ups at OVC, they later had MRI's of their necks / spines. Turned out that "normal" dogs don't look a lot different than CVI affected dogs on MRI. They said that all five of mine looked like affected dogs, but even the neurologist was convinced it was highly unlikely that all five of mine would happen to be afflicted with CVI later. I can tell you that I lost one of them at 8 to lymphoma, one at 9 to osteosarcoma - neither had CVI symptoms at the time. Two of the others are currently 8 years old, the other is 9. One of the 8 year olds just had a neuro work up while we tried to figure out the reason for her incontinence, and that included x-ray which was normal. Anyway, the 3 are without CVI symptoms at this time.

Later on, as part of the OVC study, they had mep testing which was done under light anesthesia. Simply put, electrical impulses were sent down their spines and the reaction time was monitored.

I've never heard of x-ray as a definitive diagnosis of CVI. While I'm sure that it may be apparent on x-ray once it reaches the stage of being able to see symptoms, running one for no reason would probably get you nowhere.

Murreydobe · 08-07-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes

I've never heard of x-ray as a definitive diagnosis of CVI. While I'm sure that it may be apparent on x-ray once it reaches the stage of being able to see symptoms, running one for no reason would probably get you nowhere.

I agree with everything Mary says here.

I've certainly never heard anyone anywhere recommend xray as a screening tool for CVI.

Murreydobe · 08-07-2007, 05:58 PM

[quote=MaryAndDobes;77801]AFAIK, the only definitive way to diagnose CVI is with a myelogram and it's a somewhat difficult procedure you wouldn't put a dog through for no reason. Not that pre-breeding screens are no reason, but it's still something you'd only do if a vet were fairly convinced there was reason to, and I believe that a lot of myelograms are done in conjunction with a treatment plan (ie surgical intervention, gold bead implantation, etc) - you'd do it all at the same time.

QUOTE]

This is my understanding as well..myelograms are generally done immediately prior to surgery to pinpoint exactly where and what needs to be done. Some of the possible side effects to myelograms are seizures, and even death..so the benefit/risk factor always has to be carefully weighed.

Linda H · 08-08-2007, 10:49 AM

Maybe my understanding of CVI is wrong, but I thought it was caused by misshapened vertebrae of the neck. The vertebrae would age, wear and begin to slip putting pressure on the spinal cord which would cause the symtoms.
I would think misshapen vertebrae would be easy to see on an xray. Are these vertebrae so close to normal they can't be seen on xray.
My vet had no trouble seeing the problem on my older girl and said one of the vertebrae was badly misshapen and had slipped downward wedging into the spinal cord. She was very, very symtomatic. I can't remember what he said about the daughter now. She really had no symtoms except she had hit the end of a plastic chain I was using and yelped.
It looks to me like you could catch, at the very least, the ones most likely to present at a fairly early age.

**velmadobe** · 08-08-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda H

Maybe my understanding of CVI is wrong, but I thought it was caused by misshapened vertebrae of the neck. The vertebrae would age, wear and begin to slip putting pressure on the spinal column which would cause the symtoms.
I would think misshapen vertebrae would be easy to see on an xray. Are these vertebrae so close to normal they can't be seen on xray.
My vet had no trouble seeing the problem on my older girl and said one of the vertebrae was badly misshapen and had slipped downward wedging into the spinal cord. She was very, very symtomatic. I can't remember what he said about the daughter now. She really had no symtoms except she had hit the end of a plastic chain I was using and yelped.
It looks to me like you could catch, at the very least, the ones most likely to present at a fairly early age.

There are other issues that our long necked Dobermans are prone to - CVI is only one of them. Those long lovely necks are the reason I would never use a head halti, and recommend pinch collars to discourage those sled dog pullers out there!

In my Dobe that was diagnosed with CVI, the x-ray was sent to Univ Of Penn Vet School and even they could not make a 100% definitive diagnosis of CVI without a mylogram. I opted just to manage it instead and she did ok.

It sounds like what your Doberman had might have been something else entirely. I think some vets just lump all cervical problems in Dobermans under the heading of "CVI"........... I know the vet I was using at the time did that.

Irregardless, what you went through was devistating and so I can understand why you would want to know if there was some kind of testing for it.

robinb · 08-08-2007, 01:05 PM

[quote=velmadobe;77927]There are other issues that our long necked Dobermans are prone to - CVI is only one of them. Those long lovely necks are the reason I would never use a head halti, and recommend pinch collars to discourage those sled dog pullers out there!

My vet recommends pinch collars until all pulling issues are resolved. He is of the opinion that many neck spinal injuries happen to young dogs and take years for the dog to show signs. While they look nasty they are the safest collar to use on a puller. However, I see people with pinch collars on dogs while unattended, and that is very dangerous.

Linda H · 08-08-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by velmadobe

There are other issues that our long necked Dobermans are prone to - CVI is only one of them. Those long lovely necks are the reason I would never use a head halti, and recommend pinch collars to discourage those sled dog pullers out there!

It sounds like what your Doberman had might have been something else entirely. I think some vets just lump all cervical problems in Dobermans under the heading of "CVI"........... I know the vet I was using at the time did that.

What other neck problems are dobes prone too, excluding injury? I thought CVI was it.
I sat around and wondered about this till I finally had to ask.

**velmadobe** · 08-08-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda H

What other neck problems are dobes prone too, excluding injury? I thought CVI was it.
I sat around and wondered about this till I finally had to ask.

Linda I'm far from an expert, but I know that ruptured disks are known to happen and they are not the same thing as CVI. Many people feel that heavy handed training or jerking around of a young dog can cause problems later in life in our breed..... I tend to agree which is why I do walk my dogs on a pinch collar and train in one if needed till they calm down some. My Velma is a sled dog on a walk - she will be 5 in October. I have always used a pinch collar on her for walks. She still has gotten jerked around by her neck more than I like, but she is just such an idiot sometimes that it is hard not to. I cross my fingers and hope that we won't have problems later on.

I know that there are other neck conditions out there - some I'm sure are caused by injury and are not just a Doberman thing. Right off hand I can't think of the names.