jatango

Hey gang. I'm slowly considering raw, but am still very concerned. I think i'll wait until 6 months to start (if I do) until the immune system is mature. My breeder had a puppy die at 5 months from septicemia from a marrow bone and the thought terrifies me. Has anyone else heard of something like this happening?

On the other hand, I've heard raw controls growth spurts best. I feel like I'd be doing my puppy a disservice by not using that knowledge, but I'm more scared of some bacterial catastrophe.

I've heard that bacterial issues can happen with a vaccination reaction. Yet another reason I want to wait until after the 6 month vaccine series. Is this just me being scared?

(Kim, I'd really love your input on this one. I saw Bowie's pictures on a raw fed photo album. *grin*)

BackInBlack

From what I have read, raw does control growth spurts. I just started feeding raw, Ziris is 6 months old. (almost 7 months) I am really having to watch her food intake though, because left to her own wills...she would be as fat as a pig. She also trys to bully my other dogs out of their food.

I know that there are lots of people who do feed RAW to puppies. Ziris ate a pre made raw diet when she was still with her breeder in the Netherlands. I know that Briska's Kennel in Sweden also feeds a raw diet to their puppies and adults. My friend Lacey's malinois Zane has been on raw since the day he was weaned. His breeder (Like a Hurricane in the Netherlands) actually starts them on meat, and then gives them live prey. Last time I saw him he looked really good. Growing really slow and steady.

I can't say "yay" or "nay" because I have never done it myself, but I think with enough research, it can be done.

__________________

Luvbirds59

Petey has been on RAW since he turned 5 months and is doing excellent. He did have a huge growth spurt on it...gained 16 pounds in one month...but I think that was because the chronic diarrhea he had since I got him had stopped. His weight gain has slowed down and is eating less for the last week. He is 6 months and 1 week.

There are puppies on here who have been fed RAW since their owners got them, I'm sure they will reply to this thread.

Carol

__________________
~*LIVE~LOVE~LAUGH*~

~LET THE PEACE OF THE WILDERNESS BE WITH YOU~

If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
Henry David Thoreau, From "Walden

dobesanddragons

I heard about Sharon's sweet little boy. That was just heartbreaking and to be honest, that is one of the main reasons I will not feed raw. That incident really left a lasting impact on me personally.

This book will help you in your search for information. http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/bibli...2-0875962432-2, although it is not totally raw, it explains some basics in common sense terms about vaccines and feeding.

You could join a list called raw feeders on yahoo, but the information there is clearly very one sided =) But I like to read it in digest format just to get more information even though I won't feed raw on a regular basis (esp. not just raw meat and no veggies or supplements - but I would have no problem going grainless, I have fed pre-made raw patties for awhile and it was working out just fine), I know many puppies are currently being fed raw and just thriving on all schools of thought, just raw meat, different types of meat, only certain types of meat, veggies too, supplements like fish oil, etc. Many litters on that list have been fed raw for generations and are doing very well. I think raw is very healthy for most dogs and it is appropriate.

I am also on a yahoo list called truth about vaccines, it is also very one sided but I like to read it to get more exposure to different schools of thought. Some things make sense, others are too far out there for me. I do like to go a holistic approach whenever possible, my holistic vet really helps too. There is also a yahoo group for Dobermans and the holistic approach. You might want to join that too.

Breeders are a wonderful source of information, as they know their lines and their puppies and what has and hasn't worked for them in the past. I would talk to your vet, also find a holistic vet (I use both traditional and holistic), find out which people at your dog club are more holistic and see what they say, talk to your breeder(s), and also do some outside reading and then see what you feel most comfortable with.

I am a big fan of a person trying to get all the facts on all sides as best as they can and then seeing what works best for them and their dogs. I am a researcher at heart, the more information, the better. But I do know all that information out there can be very overwhelming at times, as there are so many different ways of doing things.
Personally, I do give vaccinations. I also wait on rabies until they are 6 months old. One of my Dobes had a vaccination reaction which is my reasoning for waiting on the rabies.

dobesanddragons

Also, maybe this page might help you as far as feeding goes: http://www.kinetic-unity.com/nutrition.html
But I am sure you already have an idea of the raw diet, and since I have never fed raw, I can't be that much help in that area

micdobe

I have never heard that "RAW" feeding stops growth spurts. I'm not even sure what is meant by growth spurts in this context. IMO I've only had one Doberman puppy who ever had what I would call growth spurts, and that's Monte, who grew a little, then seemed to stop growing completely for awhile, then shot up into a tall gangly puppy, then finall the rest of his body caught up with his height. All my other Dobermans just grew slowly and steadily and were never "piecey". They were all, including Monte, fed kibble as the mainstay of their diet. The difference as far as I'm concerned is that all the others were related to each other and Monte is not. I have discussed this with a breeder whose dogs are related to my previous ones and she says the same thing about how they grow. IOW, we think it's genetic, not nutritional.

jatango

Yay! I love a differing opinion. Has anyone seen any difference in stamina or working ability in a dog fed kibble and then raw? Kibble supposedly creates more insulin resistance through all of the sugars, which affects stamina and oxygen limits (in horses at least). Not sure I entirely buy that.

I know in baby horses, being fed a high-sugar feed produces a lot of Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1, which creates a very fast-growing, very gangly horse especially in drafts which have a similar growing pattern to most larger dogs. If not controlled, this growth can lead to pituitary dysfunction, osteochondritis and a host of other issues. When fed a diet lowers in carbs, they grow more slowly and safely.

I just wonder if this phenomenon is the same in other animals. I'm thinking that since it's biochemical, it is the same type process, I just don't know the dog's threshold for sugar.

dobesanddragons

I would think most working dogs in the US in agility, search and rescue, hunting, SchH, police dogs, and other working doggie activities are fed kibble. I would think maybe they supplement the kibble in some way, but I am not for sure. If you find any studies, let us know. I also believe more and more people are turning towards homecooked or raw, in light of the recalls.

I keep my puppies lean while growing b/c it is better for them, that is easily achieved with a good balance between exercise and food - regardless of what you feed as long as it is high quality (no fillers, sugar, by products, lots of grain, etc). Those two variables are the important IMO to keeping a healthy puppy, keeping an eye on the food intake and exercise. There is also something significant to say about genetics for sure, they are very relevant to growth and growth patterns.

Certain lines grow at different rates than others. Just like certain dogs will eat all they can of kibble, homecooked, or raw b/c they can. Some are chow hounds by nature, some aren't and don't care for food too much. Some have a tendency to be easier keepers, some don't. Lots of variables.

Also, many Dobe breeders don't even feed a puppy food, they don't want to encourage fast growth.

micdobe

In line with that, dobesanddragons, altho Monte had a definite BIG and fast growth spurt, he did not get pano, and none of my Dobermans ever has.

doberkim

Actually, I would say that proportionally more performance people in any sport are feeding raw than any other group. Looking at my competition classes, at least 75% of the classes are feeding raw (including the trainers), and many people I meet at obedience trials, etc are feeding raw in a variety of forms. Maybe it differs by regions - in the northeast I think a LOT of people are feeding raw that show their dogs in a variety of venues, and all in all I think that performance/show people are more keyed in on nutrition as a vital part of health, rather than just tossing kibbles n bits at the dog.

__________________