dobermania

This is a link to the z-list on the DPCC website.

http://dpcc.ca/pdf-documents/Z-List-PDF.pdf or Doberman Pinscher Club of Canada - Albino Dobes - Z List

where it states the folowing;

"they either do carry or may possibly carry the gene for albinism" so which is it?

“Descendents of these dogs could possibly carry the gene for albinism.”

"It can be passed along for a long, long time before expressing itself"

"Even when bred to another that carries the gene, it may not express itself at that time."

"due to a computer problem circa 1985, a lot of information from years prior was lost. That is a major problem in pinpointing albino and/or albino factored Dobermans who may have entered Canada or been bred to in the years between 1976 and 1985."
wow, thats a big gap. 9 years of missing information, so how could you ever really know what dogs should be listed or not? In all reality there could be 10’s of 1000s of dogs out there by now and still breeding.

This list is very misleading and has many holes, they may possibly carry a gene that may never show up or ever affect the z listed dogs down the line in any other way. These are otherwise healthy dogs.

I’m sure that breeders and fanciers, being educated on the subject should understand that there is a much higher chance for dogs not on the z list, that are carriers of these health issues, (Gastric Volvulus or (Bloat), Von-Willebrand disease or (vWD), Hypothyroidism, Wobbler syndrome, DCM or (Cardio), to pass them on and directly affect every pup in the littler and so on down the line, and to have other serious health issues. These dogs are still being bred over and over by breeders for shows and sold for pets as healthy dogs, but yet there is no list for them.

KenyaARaineCD

No sarcasm/snarkiness intended: I am so sorry and I'm not meaning to rude, but would you clarify what your point is, please? I'm confused.

Thanks!

MaryAndDobes

When an albino or albino factored Doberman is bred to a normal Doberman, about 1/2 of the puppies will be albino factored and about half will be normal - that is the genetics of it. However, there is no test for that so no one knows which is which. Therefore, they all go on the Z list as carriers or possible carriers. It's pretty simple.

I created and maintain the Canadian Z list. Since you're concerned with other issues, why don't you just go ahead and create lists for them?

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dobermania

well your not doing a very good job since potentially 10's of 1000's of dogs and growing are out there that haven’t even made z list and never will.

your statement about "albino factored Doberman is bred to a normal Doberman, about 1/2 of the puppies will be albino factored and about half will be normal" is scientifically flawed and never proven by any reputable source.

Still people breed unhealthy animals that list of more serious problems like, (Gastric Volvulus or (Bloat), Von-Willebrand disease or (vWD), Hypothyroidism, Wobbler syndrome, DCM or (Cardio).

greenkouki

troll alert!

If you're going to complain then do it yourself and do it better! Whining about it doesn't accomplish anything

dobermania

maybe u just need to read over my post again, because the point is pretty clear.
the list is a farce and it seems the DCPP and breeders pupport the breeding of carriers of (Gastric Volvulus or (Bloat), Von-Willebrand disease or (vWD), Hypothyroidism, Wobbler syndrome, DCM or (Cardio).

dobermania

Why do cry troll, you should have the answers since you maintain the list?

Maybe I should be band for asking important question about the Doberman breed and its over all health as a breed, and this tread deleted like it never happened, so you can go on smiling thinking you are doing a good job at whatever it is you are doing.

So tell me why did you not create a list of (Gastric Volvulus or (Bloat), Von-Willebrand disease or (vWD), Hypothyroidism, Wobbler syndrome, DCM or (Cardio) carriers?

Lexxsmom

There is no known gene for DCM, there is no known gene for wobblers, and thyroid and Vwd status is checked by every reputable breeder prior to breeding and out there for the public to see.

bloat is a medical condition and is not genetic.

__________________
Leanne and Lexx


Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated, member #001, President.
" I don't need to sit for the cookie, I hunt dragons all day dammit!"
Be responsible... clip the stamens...
Lexxington's blog: http://lexxslife.blogspot.com/
ontario rescue:http://www.harleywood.ca/AvailableDogs.htm

dobermania

Oh we potentially have some intelligence here. A geneticist. very nice of you to make it.
There are tests for many health issues that are still being bred into Doberman every day, like Von-Willebrand disease or (vWD), Hypothyroidism, DCM or (Cardio).
directly affect every pup in the littler and so on down the line. So here is the real question, why are those dog still bred knowing of these problems. Why no list for them and still the unanswered question about the 10’ of 1000’s unaccounted z list dogs.

Lexxsmom

sure there are tests, but how do you make a list off of tests?

Also... I mean, I know that you're pro albino, and this is going to sound ODD coming out of my mouth because I am EXTREMELY against the breeding of albinos, but why exactly are you so worried about there being a list? Albinos are not accepted in the AKC/CKC show ring... so other than that.... the list doesn't cause people much problem.

I also don't exactly understand your question. Most of your quotes simply refer to the way that albinoism is passed on as a highly recessive trait. I don't see the problem?

__________________
Leanne and Lexx


Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated, member #001, President.
" I don't need to sit for the cookie, I hunt dragons all day dammit!"
Be responsible... clip the stamens...
Lexxington's blog: http://lexxslife.blogspot.com/
ontario rescue:http://www.harleywood.ca/AvailableDogs.htm

KenyaARaineCD

First, thank you for the précis. Second, I've never heard of the DCPP. What does is stand for?
Thanks!

MaryAndDobes

Uh, I'm doing what I can with the information that is available. I didn't lose the information. Maybe you ought to take that problem up with the CKC. Frankly, I'd appreciate it.

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dobermania

think what you will about me, these are just questions that need to be answered. the time has come.
So tell me this, since there are tests to detect these health issues of which I speak, why is it perfectly acceptable to continue breeding these sick animals. Breeders everywhere are guilty of this and they damn well know it, most often without even warning the new owners.
It seems absolutely crazy that the DPCC is so concerned about the breed and are trying to enforce a list so far out of control that they can only manage with a time machine, but everyone is perfectly willing to just let this go on.
Since you must know the answer, tell me this. What do think the chance is that dogs gets fatal cancer or Von-Willebrand disease or (vWD), Hypothyroidism, DCM or (Cardio) compared to albinism?
A legitimate questions.

thea2003

ok so if you arent a troll you came on here to complain about a list and telling the person who put their hours upon hours of work into this...if the list isnt complete, please, enlighten her as to who is missing...as you seem to know.

*waiting for my personal attack now*

Fitz.kara

:popc1:

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-Kara-

dobermania

yah so it was a type-o but everyone knows i mean DPCC.

Lexxsmom

well the chances would all be different because the rate of each of these things happening differs.

Actually, you can't even compare the rates because albinos themselves are also capable of getting each and every one of those diseases. I would in fact say that they are MOST likely to, not because they are albino, but because of the people that tend to breed them, due to them not actually being an accepted colour.

I suppose if I compare vWD, most reputable breeders do NOT breed to get genetically affected puppies... so, in the world of albinoism, they also do NOT breed to get albinos. Seems similar in a way.

I don't think its a matter of comparing albinoism to other issues though... I mean I agree with you that a way to keep track of dobermans with these diseases would be potentially life saving, and dobequest DOES try... good, reputable breeders DO try, thats why health testing is so important and getting a dog from a reputable breeder is important.

I also don't think anyone is "perfectly happy" to let this go on.. if we were, we wouldnt be pouring energy and money into DCM studies, enrolling our dogs in to heart studies, getting vetgen vWD tests and yearly thyroid exams...

__________________
Leanne and Lexx


Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated, member #001, President.
" I don't need to sit for the cookie, I hunt dragons all day dammit!"
Be responsible... clip the stamens...
Lexxington's blog: http://lexxslife.blogspot.com/
ontario rescue:http://www.harleywood.ca/AvailableDogs.htm

MaryAndDobes

I'm afraid I have to repeat what you said.

I think that any breeder and fancier is well aware that even when a dog does have or carries any of the issues you mentioned that they don't necessarily pass it on or directly affect every pup in the litter. Especially when you keep talking about vWD. You can breed an affected to a clear and NO puppies will be affected at all, for instance. There are plenty of well known stud dogs that died of dilated cardiomyopathy yet produced long lived healthy offspring (as well as puppies that may have been affected).

The Z list, both American and Canadian, is a way to identify dogs carrying or possibly carrying a condition that responsible breeders don't want. So, we use it just like we do the other available testing methods, both flawed and/or accurate, to try to produce healthy puppies.

If you don't like the list, don't use it. Pretty simple.

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MaryAndDobes

BTW, I'm guessing that Richard and/or Maria found their way back to the board after being banned a bit ago.

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Incredibledobe

I don't see your point. Most reputable breeders do test the best they can. Even if there were a list for DCM, there is still no way to know if a dog will develop it even if they do test clear. If breeders who do test for it and breed the dogs at the time they test clear, the offspring can still die of it later. So the point would be what in maintaining a list? In order to eradicate it, we would all stop breeding altogether and no more dobes. We already know it exists in all lines or at least it is thought to.

As for the others - vwd, thyroid, eye diseases - there are those tests available and people who care do use them and those dogs are in those databases so the info is there. Plus, if you are breeding you are certainly going to ask to see test results on any dogs you use. I would certainly rather see the actual test result than pick my breeding dogs off of some list.

Quite frankly, it's the people who don't health test and who breed still who are a problem and that includes pretty much all albino greeders, the commercial greeders, and the backyard variety. There ain't no list in the world that is going to make any difference to them.

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Lorna & the INCREDIBLE Dobermanns...
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CGC, STT, ZTP-V1B, SchH 3, IPO 3
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thea2003

I dunno they type english too well

dobermania

Your answer is also not acceptable.

You know the answer so why the dance? I’m not saying that albinos aren’t affected by the same illnesses, but they are certainly not at any higher risk because they are not of an accepted colour. That’s funny.

You are a geneticist, right?

A non z list dog has a 99% chance to be affected by a more serious fatal illness (that we have tests for and prevented) than a z listed dog has to give birth to even one albino or white that may or may not have any health issues other than being white or not of an accepted colour.

Fitz.kara

she wasn't saying that. I think she knows more about it than you. she's saying that people who breed albinos are not reputable breeders, so why would they do the proper health testing? They don't. Anyone who breeds Albinos and Z factor Dobermans are NOT a reaputable breeder. Period.

__________________
-Kara-

Fitz.kara

:shutup3:

where are you getting your information anyway?

__________________
-Kara-

luvindobes

[quote=thea2003;479443]I dunno they type english too well[/Is that really necessary? Do you really need to be so insulting?