An update on the genetic status of the Doberman Pinscher (DCM) - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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Dcm

MODERATOR NOTE: WE HAVE THREE THREADS ON THIS SAME TOPIC - THE STUDY BELOW. SORRY FOR ANY CONFUSION, BUT I'VE MERGED ALL THREE THREADS TO KEEP THE DISCUSSION TO ONE SINGLE THREAD. THANKS FOR YOUR COOPERATION!

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An update on the genetic status of the Doberman Pinscher - The Institute of Canine Biology


Last edited by MeadowCat; 03-16-2017 at 12:16 PM.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 07:51 AM
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A understandable writer on the the subject. Time travel maybe the only solution.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 08:21 AM
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Grim.

My question is if a breeder takes it upon themselves to introduce another breed for genetic diversity what is it? Can we keep what is inherently Doberman while adding something for health and longevity?

Like many here I have experienced too many losses to not take an interest in this possibility.

My other breed of choice is the Jagdterrier and at this point I am planning 1 more Dobe and then only Jagdterrier after that. It doesn't get any easier and I never have gotten used to losing them so young. At least with Jags I get an almost guaranteed 10-15 years+ of carefree companionship. Well with the exception that they are MENACES but they are healthy lol.

I hope this train can be turned around for the Doberman breed.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 12:23 PM
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I hope this train can be reversed! But it's going to take some deep soul searching, and a sea change in attitudes to achieve.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 01:28 PM
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I read a bit about it, and the genetic basis. It looks like getting rid of the genes responsible is going to take gene editing (maybe 30 or 40 years away from being able to buy it for dogs), however the condition and risk of an event can probably be reduced the same way as in humans. High vegetable intake, omega 3's, curcumin, and other antiinflammitories (never researched which are safe/most effective for dogs) will slow the heart growth. So will reduced copper intake. Second to that, building a strong immune system is reliant on vitamin D and again, fruits and vegetables. I'm not claiming by any stretch that it'll cure anything or fix this problem, but it could turn 8 years into 9, and if any veterinarians here want to publish, you could set up a cell culture and some gels for a basic testing lab, and start doing proliferation studies on the literally thousands of untested anti-inflammatory molecules found in plants. It only takes one slightly positive test to find the class of molecules that work, and you'd probably be on the path to a human treatment as well.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sisu27 View Post
Grim.

My question is if a breeder takes it upon themselves to introduce another breed for genetic diversity what is it? Can we keep what is inherently Doberman while adding something for health and longevity?

Like many here I have experienced too many losses to not take an interest in this possibility.

My other breed of choice is the Jagdterrier and at this point I am planning 1 more Dobe and then only Jagdterrier after that. It doesn't get any easier and I never have gotten used to losing them so young. At least with Jags I get an almost guaranteed 10-15 years+ of carefree companionship. Well with the exception that they are MENACES but they are healthy lol.

I hope this train can be turned around for the Doberman breed.
German Pinchers?? Do they have problems with DCM??
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-15-2017, 03:44 PM
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Exclamation An update on the genetic status of the Doberman Pinscher (DCM)



From The Institute of Canine Biology. The report is VERY technical, but read through -- the message is critical. Below are some key excerpts:

Unfortunately, among the other breeds that were tested, the Doberman fared the worst, with less than 10 DLA haplotypes for either Class I and Class II. Even if DCM could be eliminated from the breed, the Doberman would still suffer from issues related to the poor health of the immune system.

This is the assessment of Dr Niels Pedersen, who is conducting a study of genetic diversity in Dobermans at UC Davis.

1) "This study of 71 Doberman establishes a desperate need for breeders to search the world for pockets of genetic diversity that does not exist in the present population, just as was done by Standard Poodle and Italian Greyhound breeders. Eastern Europe and more isolated areas of Western Europe would be ideal places to search for such diversity. Genetic introgressions <cross-breeding> with similar dogs may be required, but such outcrossing must be based on sound genetic knowledge and careful monitoring of new diversity to see that it is not lost by backcrossing or contained to only a fraction of the breed."

2) "In the case of diseases such as DCM, the genetic traits responsible for the disease may already be fixed in certain varieties of the breed, reminiscent of hyperuricosuria in the Dalmatian. A lack of genetic diversity greatly limits the ability to find reasonably unrelated mates, but when this lack is combined with the need to select against a large number of heritable traits, the ability to identify genetically suitable mates becomes even more difficult."

The bottom line

The Doberman has the lowest diversity in the DLA genes of the immune system of any of the breeds studied to date by Pedersen's lab at UC Davis. This, together with the high level of inbreeding documented from multiple studes and the overall relatedness of the dogs in the population, leaves breeders with little ability to circumvent the multiple genetic diseases in the breed. Furthermore, some deleterious genes could be fixed in the breed - that is, the normal, non-mutated version of the gene is no longer present in the gene pool and therefore are not available for selection.

It is highly unlikely that the desperate genetic situation of the Doberman can be improved by selective breeding within the closed gene pool of the breed. It should be made very clear to breeders that they will not restore health to this breed by selecting against health problems. Furthermore, trying to select less related parents in an effort to improve diversity in the offspring is a bit like pushing your peas around on your plate; you might look like you're accomplishing something, but with little effect.

The only hope for this breed is the initiation of a sound, comprehensive cross-breeding program, under the guidance of population geneticists, that will introduce new genetic diversity into the breed. The longer it takes to begin genetic rescue, the more difficult it will be and the less likely it is to be successful.

We have a moral obligation to restore the noble Doberman breed back to health, and this effort needs to begin immediately.

I repeat what I said in my earlier post:

​DNA testing does not make someone a "responsible" breeder. Caring for the heritage of your breed does not make you a "preservation" breeder. Pride and love and dedication are all terrific, but they will not prevent the heartbreak that awaits thousands of Doberman owners in the future. Breeders need to DO something about this. We need to step up to the plate and acknowledge that continuing to breed dogs that are likely to die of a genetic disorder is irresponsible, unethical, and inhumane. That is certainly how the average, everyday dog lover feels. This is also how I feel.

Last edited by weiselja; 03-15-2017 at 03:47 PM. Reason: add author
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-15-2017, 04:26 PM
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one of the problems I have with this study is the low number of study animals versus the total amount of Dobermans, 71 would be considered an unreliably small study group. Now I am not claiming that there isn't a problem or that there shouldn't be something done. But to get a true representation It should include a much higher number of dogs.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 06:51 AM
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The problem is, the more data we are collecting the more we are seeing that this holds true. Denying the true bottleneck of the breed won't help - with about 200 dogs tested at UCD VGL, we aren't seeing huge variation out there. We are looking for small pockets that may contain diversity that has been lost, but we are also creating a tool by which breeders can determine their own diversity, and once having narrowed the list of studs down, pick the one which provides the most diversity to the breeding. In addition, its another tool to determine which dog you keep for a breeding program out of a litter to maintain and promote diversity .


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more beatings, less love!
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 07:03 AM
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The answer isn't going to be one the fancy really likes. There are already some breeders who are breeding I guess what the rest of the world would determine "mixed" breeds. If we want to open the stud books, at least for a certain amount of time we need to stop worrying about the "dobe-ness" of what is created and look specifically at the diversity that is created, and select animals with solid temperaments, impeccable health, and genetic diversity. What it looks like will have to take back seats to other criteria.

The other factor that is coming to light is that some of the most genetically diverse dobermans being tested are certainly not the desirable, hot shot top winning pedigree dogs. All those BYB hobby bred dogs the fancy loves to jump on when shared, those dogs have likely to some degree been isolated and may be more diverse.

Food for thought: the most genetically diverse doberman out there in the VGL database is currently my rescued dobe, Cherrybomb. While she has a typically IR (internal relatedness) - meaning she is closely related to her own line -BUT - when her data is run, She is considered genetically unrelated to over 80% of the doberman population tested so far, and the more dogs they have added the higher her number has gone (the more dogs tested, the more this may change - the data is updated for all dogs as the database grows). Cherry's lines separated and likely never got some of the "big" names added into them, either from the AKC show world or the Euro import lines.

I really encourage ALL of you to submit your dogs DNA cheek swab for this testing - the numbers we get may help us save/preserve the breed for the future, and it may be the only way we have out of this.

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services...InDoberman.php


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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:22 AM
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Is it possible to recreate the steps taken by the original creator of the breed to make stock to introduce to current population?
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 12:17 PM
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Sorry for any confusion, folks, but we had three threads on this same topic...I've merged them into one to contain the discussion to one single thread. Thanks for your cooperation!


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