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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Doberman Diversity Project

Here is some exciting news for all doberman owners and breeders about the dna testing situation available to us. The Doberman Diversity Project. If you guys go to THE DOBERMAN DIVERSITY PROJECT - Home you will be directed to its website.Its a non profit project that gives Doberman owners access to the next generation DNA testing at a reduced price. They are a non profit and 100% of there revenue goes to support there scientific goals. They have one simple goal: To improve the health and longevity of the Doberman Pinscher.
They need our help. Let me know what you think?
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 07:02 PM
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My sample is already there, just waiting on results!
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 05:16 AM
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There is also an other project, do not know the website but here is the Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/9764...84689920863365

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 08:36 AM
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UCDAvis project. Already in that one too<G> it's very interesting actually. There is a website you can have download your results(privately owned) and they have tools to do virtual matings etc. There is a fee to use the website, and I know a lot of folks have balked at that, but it is a privately owned and run site, so I can understand the requirement for compensation there

For giggles, I took two bitches, mine and another that on paper didn't look very closely related at all, very very low COI. BUT genetically the resulting puppies would have looked like the result of a 3/4 sibling breeding.Never in a million years would you have looked at the pedigree and come up with that result, but based on the genetics of the two dogs, that's exactly what it would have been! I am very excited about all the new tools science is offering us as we go forward. In spite of some of the naysayers, these are just that, tools, not the be all answer to every issue, but in the case of the DDP out of Cornell, it's a long term study to see how much genetic diversity can affect positive change in health issues for the breed. Exciting stuff(for me anyway!!)
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 11:30 AM
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Would the Doberman Diversity Project also be a means or another avenue of putting puppy buyers with breeders?
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by alan j. View Post
Would the Doberman Diversity Project also be a means or another avenue of putting puppy buyers with breeders?

There is a way to do that SHOULD you wish to participate. It is not required, nor does anyone dictate who you breed or who you sell to. They have potential buyers, who agree that IF they get a puppy from a DDP participant breeder, they will pay for the testing on that pup, and keep the Project informed about it's health throughout it's life, also age of death and COD when that inevitably happens. It's being set up as a long term project. What I like is that my fee to enroll a dog also includes all current and future DNA tests for the breed. DCM2 is not yet available through this one, but as these tests come available, your dog will be tested, even if the dog has passed on. Let me see if I can get permission from a Doberman person involved in this project to repost what she's written, she is far better versed in the goals and workings of the project than I am!
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 07:09 PM
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I understand that this is a long term project and i think the goal is to see if the choice of using the tools of genetics in choosing the pairing and comparing them to the traditional methods that choose the parents.
I am assuming that most breeders who would involve themselves in this program would not be a BYB or a notch above that but more if not much less a "reputable" type breeder.

As a member of a forum where many new posters asking how to find a reputable breeder would it be ok to advise someone to put their info on the DDP website?
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 06:27 PM
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I would urge people to look into the Project as a potential buyer, and make that determination. I truly don't know enough about who is taking part at this time, there may be some breeders that would be looked down upon by other breeders, but it's going to take the whole village to work on turning health around IMHO. But I would think if they're willing to spend the money for this testing, and they do all the other health checks it might just be a breeder worth considering
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-20-2017, 03:51 PM
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Howdy,
Representative of the Doberman Diversity Project here! My name is Sophie, and I'm one of the co-founders of the project. I know it's sometimes difficult to convey to skeptical people (who are rightly so!) why we are doing what we're doing. And without understanding our "Why", it can be harder to understand "what" we're doing. So I've posted this before, but I'll share with you a tidbit about why I personally got involved with the project and why we need the support of this breed's community:
"Like all of you, Dobermans are my life. I got into them with a Dobermutt, and I got lucky. Because she is mixed, she lucked out on looking just enough like a Dobe but escaped all the health problems. She is now 10 & thriving. So, I went looking for my next Dobe puppy. And I was absolutely horrified to realize that the reported prevalence of DCM is almost 60%!!!!! That means that Dobermans have a 60% risk of developing DCM. That meant that MY next Dobe puppy has a 60% risk of getting DCM and potentially dying prematurely or suddenly from it. I could not believe that this was going on and that there was no GIGANTIC collaborative effort from veterinarians & geneticists & breeders & owners to figure how to improve our situation. The truth is that we are nowhere near figuring out DCM and that the multiple genes involved are probably "fixed" into our breed. Also, many cases of DCM don't rear their ugly heads until AFTER dogs have already been bred. So, we are swimming upstream. But we now live in a era of advanced genetic science, and conservationists have demonstrated how they have saved species. If we work together, we could reasonably improve the sorry state of the modern Doberman. Right now, we have no good answers. The disease is too widespread. But, if we give up, if we don't try to collaborate between breeders & owners & veterinarians & geneticists, then NOBODY will, and the Doberman will be no more. I have looked at many breeders and lines for my next puppy, and the only thing I have confidence about is that my next puppy will probably have a 60% risk of developing DCM just like all other Dobes, no matter the pedigree, no matter the lines, no matter the health testing. But if we don't get involved and do something for this breed, no one will. And then what? So, that's where I am now... about to get my next puppy, knowing the odds are against us, but still we must do it for the breed."

And that's why our Doberman Diversity Project has a multi-faceted approach to decreasing genetic disease in our breed and why we have a comprehensive Partner Breeder program. When the problem in Dobermans is SO big, we need a BIG project with lots of potential. Yes, it is about genetic diversity. Yes, it is about testing for specific genes. Yes, it is also about discovering haplotypes that may be more or less prone to disease. Yes, it is about the actual process of breeding. Yes, it is about tracking puppies and making sure we collect data on who developed what disease + when. Yes, it is about doing ALL that we can to improve Doberman health and longevity. Because, let's face it, this breed is in serious serious trouble. As a soon-to-graduate veterinarian, I have always believed that the best cure for disease is prevention. And when we are dealing with a genetic disease - such as DCM, Wobbler's, and liver disease - it demands that we nip these problems in the bud by analyzing the genetics and doing smarter breeding. And that's why our project does what it does. So if you've got questions, concerns, or ideas, please share them so we can continue the conversation and improve Doberman health!
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 06:55 PM
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Any DDP Breeders out there??

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBRMNDVRSTYPRJCT View Post
Howdy,
Representative of the Doberman Diversity Project here! My name is Sophie, and I'm one of the co-founders of the project. I know it's sometimes difficult to convey to skeptical people (who are rightly so!) why we are doing what we're doing. And without understanding our "Why", it can be harder to understand "what" we're doing. So I've posted this before, but I'll share with you a tidbit about why I personally got involved with the project and why we need the support of this breed's community:
"Like all of you, Dobermans are my life. I got into them with a Dobermutt, and I got lucky. Because she is mixed, she lucked out on looking just enough like a Dobe but escaped all the health problems. She is now 10 & thriving. So, I went looking for my next Dobe puppy. And I was absolutely horrified to realize that the reported prevalence of DCM is almost 60%!!!!! That means that Dobermans have a 60% risk of developing DCM. That meant that MY next Dobe puppy has a 60% risk of getting DCM and potentially dying prematurely or suddenly from it. I could not believe that this was going on and that there was no GIGANTIC collaborative effort from veterinarians & geneticists & breeders & owners to figure how to improve our situation. The truth is that we are nowhere near figuring out DCM and that the multiple genes involved are probably "fixed" into our breed. Also, many cases of DCM don't rear their ugly heads until AFTER dogs have already been bred. So, we are swimming upstream. But we now live in a era of advanced genetic science, and conservationists have demonstrated how they have saved species. If we work together, we could reasonably improve the sorry state of the modern Doberman. Right now, we have no good answers. The disease is too widespread. But, if we give up, if we don't try to collaborate between breeders & owners & veterinarians & geneticists, then NOBODY will, and the Doberman will be no more. I have looked at many breeders and lines for my next puppy, and the only thing I have confidence about is that my next puppy will probably have a 60% risk of developing DCM just like all other Dobes, no matter the pedigree, no matter the lines, no matter the health testing. But if we don't get involved and do something for this breed, no one will. And then what? So, that's where I am now... about to get my next puppy, knowing the odds are against us, but still we must do it for the breed."

And that's why our Doberman Diversity Project has a multi-faceted approach to decreasing genetic disease in our breed and why we have a comprehensive Partner Breeder program. When the problem in Dobermans is SO big, we need a BIG project with lots of potential. Yes, it is about genetic diversity. Yes, it is about testing for specific genes. Yes, it is also about discovering haplotypes that may be more or less prone to disease. Yes, it is about the actual process of breeding. Yes, it is about tracking puppies and making sure we collect data on who developed what disease + when. Yes, it is about doing ALL that we can to improve Doberman health and longevity. Because, let's face it, this breed is in serious serious trouble. As a soon-to-graduate veterinarian, I have always believed that the best cure for disease is prevention. And when we are dealing with a genetic disease - such as DCM, Wobbler's, and liver disease - it demands that we nip these problems in the bud by analyzing the genetics and doing smarter breeding. And that's why our project does what it does. So if you've got questions, concerns, or ideas, please share them so we can continue the conversation and improve Doberman health!

Hi Sophie,
We spoke by email a few weeks back when I was invited to your beta.
You may recall that I mentioned our Doberman had passed away and I am now looking for a breeder who will participate in the DDP (or who already has).
Our girl almost made it to 14. But no matter how long they are with you, it is never enough.

But more to the point their quality of life.
- Our girl had a good run, but I am sure she hid much pain, prancing to the end with so much courage.

As per breeders, it seems that some are skeptical and somewhat protective of their own expertise in "reading a pedigree" and I have been treading lightly out of respect for those who put their time and effort into this huge challenge which faces the breed.
When/if you have a list of participating breeders, please share.
- I am also looking for a breeder who uses European stock in their program.

Sophie, I am very happy to see you posting on DobermanTalk!
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-23-2017, 03:44 AM
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While I would like to believe that DDP's goal is to better the Doberman breed, their website is extremely deceptive.

Why doesn't the Doberman Diversity Project's (DDP) website make clear that Adam Boyko, B.S., B.S., Ph.D., who is identified as a member of their team as a "Science advisor. Real job: Canine geneticist" is also the co-founder of Embark, where you have to buy the tests?

There's no methodology listed, no public test results, and to be part of the DDP puppy placement or be a 'protocol' breeder or buyer, you must pay Embark $150 per dog for genetic testing. That's the charge to be part of the "study". Which has yet to publish any genetic results.

And while their website says they're a nonprofit, the fine print says they're not a 501(c)(3) in every state - but doesn't make public which states they aren't. 🙄
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-23-2017, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
While I would like to believe that DDP's goal is to better the Doberman breed, their website is extremely deceptive.

Why doesn't the Doberman Diversity Project's (DDP) website make clear that Adam Boyko, B.S., B.S., Ph.D., who is identified as a member of their team as a "Science advisor. Real job: Canine geneticist" is also the co-founder of Embark, where you have to buy the tests?

There's no methodology listed, no public test results, and to be part of the DDP puppy placement or be a 'protocol' breeder or buyer, you must pay Embark $150 per dog for genetic testing. That's the charge to be part of the "study". Which has yet to publish any genetic results.

And while their website says they're a nonprofit, the fine print says they're not a 501(c)(3) in every state - but doesn't make public which states they aren't. 🙄
This does not raise any more red flags than the PDK4 and new, so-called "NCSU DCM2" tests. Last I checked, there was no meaningful public or peer-reviewed information regarding the latter, hopefully that has changed. I'm not sure what the ongoing purpose of the first is, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of follow-up to validate the test's accuracy across the larger Doberman population, and it's simply being misued by bad or ignorant breeders to make claims of their dogs being "DCM-Free".

I think the subject of promoting genetic diversity is something a whole lot of established show-line breeders seem to find extremely threatening, since linebreeding around popular sires are not habits they wish to change. Anything that calls those practices into question will absolutely get poo-pooed, fault is guaranteed be found and it will be blown way out of proportion.

I am by no means saying that heaping helpings of skepticism are unhealthy, just that it's funny how much folks have embraced the NCSU studies and added the DNA testing to the Reputable Breeder Checklist, hardly asking any questions about the actual value to the breed or the implications of the test results.

All genetic testing is profiting the people who researched and devised the tests. Even in the case of nonprofits or higher ed research, there is a motive for revenue generation for both the research institution and the contracted, for-profit lab which processes the samples. This is the case with the NCSU DCM tests and the vWD test. Some are slam-dunks that identify genetic defects (or the lack thereof) with absolute certainty, others only serve to further research or give a breeder another factor to consider. This particular program seems to be the latter.

One could hope this would be made more clear on the website, and you're absolutely correct, publishing a methodology would help. I'm going to hazard a guess that it's just your typical test that takes a bunch of frequently-observed genetic markers for the breed and compares how many of the more unusual ones show-up, basically another, more specialized application of your typical, "What breeds did my mutt come from?" genetic test kits. This sort of thing has the potential to be useful, going hand-in-hand with in-depth pedigree research with inbreeding coefficient calculations.

I think this has strong potential to be valuable if it reaches critical mass and the folks running the project keep it honest.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your forward thinking and trying to help our dobermans. You are right without this type of testing the breed would be doomed! I know I have had three sets of dobes who have suffered many of these terrible diseases its heartbreaking. Bravo for your help much love and respect from doberman owners who want to stop the needless suffering our dogs go thru
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 01:59 PM
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Hi all,

To address a couple of issues posed here. The report you receive is a 'map' of 38 chromosomes with the areas of homozygostiy highlighted(yellow hetero blue homozygous) it also includes a COI based not on a math formula which typically only goes back 5-7 generations, but is a COI which encompasses the whole genome of that particular dog. This is very much a developing program, with the goals of providing breeding tools for breeders to use to help make good choices, and also to see if the goal of greater heterozygosity has the theorized result of improving health and longevity.

In my personal dog, with absolutely zero common ancestors in the first 5 generations, she came back a genetic COI of 30%. That is a higher COI than a littermate breeding would produce(25% COI)this in a dog with no common ancestors in 5 generations.The lowest COI to date in Dobermans tested is 15%, that is a HIGHER COI than half sibling breedings would produce(12.5%). Imagine a dog linebred heavily. Not all homozygous genes are necessarily bad genes, or even harmful, and who knows, we may find some are beneficial. But seeing the cold, hard numbers on my own dog that I consider outcrossed, well, it illustrates to me exactly how bad a problem there seems to be. So I'm participating with the Dobe, and I'm also going to pay another 150 dollars to have the DNA typed on my eldest non-Dobe. She's almost 16 and healthy, so MAYBE her DNA will help researchers find areas on the chromosomes that impact longevity and good health. She is not an outcross, and she is of a breed with a far smaller population worldwide than Dobes, so it should be pretty interesting to see her results. Her pedigree contains a lot of ancestors both up close and further back who enjoyed healthy longevity so it will be very very interesting to me to see her genomic report, and compare it to my Dobe.

While we wait for the tools to come online(there needs to be a representative sample tested for them to have any meaning, I think, THINK and Sophie, correct me if I'm wrong! that number is 100 dogs) one of the best perks to participating so far has been the people I've had access to. I've spoken by phone with a PhD in genetics, who is focusing on epigenetics,( I really owe her a case of wine, or other favorite beverage<G>) I've had the great pleasure of corresponding with Sophie, and I can call or email any of the folks working on this project at any time, and get an answer to my questions. There are other DNA testing venues available to any who wish to use them, but what truly does get me excited about this particular project is the goal set. And that any and all research data will be shared with any other research team who requests it. More data, freely shared is of benefit across the board, and could relieve other research groups from having to replicate testing, thus potentially speeding up concrete findings. I hope many owners, and breeders of all types of Dobermans will join the project. I really do, I know the motives driving Sophie and the other initiating person are love of the breed, and a desire to help insure the future health and viability of the breed, this is a huge plus for me, and if you ever get a chance to talk to any of them, their excitement, and passion is infectious!

Last edited by windamyr1; 02-13-2017 at 02:27 PM.
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