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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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Rickets - conflicting information.

Does anyone have any advice that has successfully treated rickets in their dog? I've been researching and speaking to my vet regularly, calling him with new theories, getting his advice.. And now I'm considering a second opinion. Her legs look awful. They start out bad, and by the end of the day look so painful. She doesn't want to walk or run or play, she just hobbles around and lays down as soon as possible. I was feeding her a PMR diet, lots of variety, plenty of RMB, green tripe, and gelatin, pumpkin, egg, Greek yogurt blend a couple times a week... Her coat has gone from thin, scabby, to rich, thick and glowing. But her legs still look bad. I've read online that they should be fed a crappy puppy food because the better quality provide too much nutrition and her bones can't keep up with the growth.. Then read that she needs supplements (she is currently on Osteoform), then that she should take supplements.. Wrap her legs, don't wrap her legs - her vet doesn't want me to wrap her legs because they need to strengthen up on their own, but I DO want to wrap because I feel like she needs support to prevent further damage.. I've read that activity should be limited, and also that there should be forced activity (which I know is a big no-no for puppies) because it will make the legs stronger and will therefore strengthen them.... She looks completely normal when she's laying down (I'll post pic), but when she's standing her legs are completely bowed. Shes 15lbs right now at (I believe) 3 months.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I just want her to develop normally and not suffer with this any longer than necessary. TIA
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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I should really proofread before I post... x_x I meant to add that I have put her on a kibble now (diamond naturals grain free, ALS, beef variety) mixed with 4 Health wet puppy food - because I got concerned about the "nutritional balance" of her food... I know I was doing everything right, but I just want to make sure it's not a nutritional deficiency.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 10:24 AM
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Did your vet actually diagnose this puppy with rickets?

Was the condition (bowed legs and lameness) present when you first brought her home?

Have you talked to her breeder about it?

Since she's only three months old I would want a second opinion but I would have her seen by a board certified orthopedist AND I'd want my regular vet kept in the loop. I'd start by asking him to provide a referral to an orthopedic specialis.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 05:03 PM
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Yeah, I'm really curious to hear what diagnostics have been performed. Radiographs? Serum chemistries? Vitamin D assays? Ionized calcium? Rickets isn't always due to dietary insufficiencies (too much phosphorus or too little calcium). Often rickets can be due to malabsorption of calcium (genetic vitamin D resistance), hypoparathyroidism, or renal insufficiency. Changing the diet and providing supplements (possibly for life if this is genetic) should result in improvements fairly quickly in young pups.

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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These are her legs.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 10:14 AM
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See my post (dobebug) above and that of dvm2be--a picture does't provide much information in the case of your puppy. As far as I can tell from your posts, what you need at this point is some diagnostic testing just to determine WHAT the problem actually is.

Beyond my earlier suggestions about second opinions if there is a vet school anywhere near you that will accept referrals they often can determine the cause of the problem and offer realistic treatment suggestions.

Good luck...
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 03:42 PM
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Tell your breeder right away. They need to know and you need to know some history in that line and what littermates are doing right now? Did you purchase your pup with this condition? If so, did the breeder offer information as to what it was and has she seen it previous?

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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Tell your breeder right away. They need to know and you need to know some history in that line and what littermates are doing right now? Did you purchase your pup with this condition? If so, did the breeder offer information as to what it was and has she seen it previous?
She's a BYB pup that was taken from the litter WAY too early. Friend bought her then she came to me. Don't know about the breeder or littermates.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 03:59 PM
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While the picture you posted does look like rickets, it could also be bilateral angular limb deformity. Though, since you said her legs appear normal when in a prone position, I'd be more apt to say that the bending is due to weak bones, not a malformation. Either way, it looks very painful. If the pup was diagnosed with rickets, follow your vet's advice. If you don't like his/her advice, seek a second opinion--an orthopedic surgeon, if possible, as was already mentioned. If I was her owner, I'd really want to know what her calcium and phosphorus levels were, as well as baseline radiographs. Since she's changed diets and is on a supplement, I'd want to know within a few weeks if there are any appreciable changes. Also, she's at a much greater chance for fractures, so I would be cautious about how much/what kind of exercise you're allowing.

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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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While the picture you posted does look like rickets, it could also be bilateral angular limb deformity. Though, since you said her legs appear normal when in a prone position, I'd be more apt to say that the bending is due to weak bones, not a malformation. Either way, it looks very painful. If the pup was diagnosed with rickets, follow your vet's advice. If you don't like his/her advice, seek a second opinion--an orthopedic surgeon, if possible, as was already mentioned. If I was her owner, I'd really want to know what her calcium and phosphorus levels were, as well as baseline radiographs. Since she's changed diets and is on a supplement, I'd want to know within a few weeks if there are any appreciable changes. Also, she's at a much greater chance for fractures, so I would be cautious about how much/what kind of exercise you're allowing.
He diagnosed her with rickets based on the way she looked. No tests have been preformed or offered, I honestly had no idea what to ask for so was just following his lead. I've never dealt with a pup with this condition before.. This is a recent picture (excuse the beat to hell baseboards) - the leg on the right was one I wrapped to test out a theory. Within one day this is the difference between the two. The vet felt that wrapping would weaken the muscles and as she grew it would become even more difficult to correct, but as you can see (this is three days after that one day of wrapping) her leg looks much better. I go back next week so I will ask him to check her cal/phos levels - is that a blood test?
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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While the picture you posted does look like rickets, it could also be bilateral angular limb deformity. Though, since you said her legs appear normal when in a prone position, I'd be more apt to say that the bending is due to weak bones, not a malformation. Either way, it looks very painful. If the pup was diagnosed with rickets, follow your vet's advice. If you don't like his/her advice, seek a second opinion--an orthopedic surgeon, if possible, as was already mentioned. If I was her owner, I'd really want to know what her calcium and phosphorus levels were, as well as baseline radiographs. Since she's changed diets and is on a supplement, I'd want to know within a few weeks if there are any appreciable changes. Also, she's at a much greater chance for fractures, so I would be cautious about how much/what kind of exercise you're allowing.
He diagnosed her with rickets based on the way she looked. No tests have been preformed or offered, I honestly had no idea what to ask for so was just following his lead. I've never dealt with a pup with this condition before.. This is a recent picture (excuse the beat to hell baseboards) - the leg on the right was one I wrapped to test out a theory. Within one day this is the difference between the two. The vet felt that wrapping would weaken the muscles and as she grew it would become even more difficult to correct, but as you can see (this is three days after that one day of wrapping) her leg looks much better. I go back next week so I will ask him to check her cal/phos levels - is that a blood test?
sorry, forgot to add picture.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 05:30 PM
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you're right, it does look better. Let us know what the vet says. I have never seen anything like that so I am not the right person to give advice. I just feel for you both and I am glad you have her now. Good luck and hugs to that baby.

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 07:28 PM
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Poor little peanut!! But what a huge difference wrapping that leg made, I think I'd be looking for a referral to a vet school, not sure where you live, but there should be one nearby to where you live(within a few hours anyway) I've never seen anything like that before, and regular 'rickets' I've seen only once, and that puppy improved almost immediately after starting to get more sunshine and normal exercise(was a Malamute pup)
Best to you both, I sure hope you can get both legs looking good and straight!
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 07:41 PM
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never seen anything like that, except in photos.

hope things improve for your girl, that looks so painful.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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Her legs tonight... They will start out looking not so bad in the morning, but as the day wears on they become more painful and so I guess she just stops trying to correct them. The other night I actually thought her wrist (??) was broken because of how misshapen it was. I'm going to get a referral. I've been dealing with this for nearly a month now and there has been little to no improvement with the supplements. We are outside as often as the weather is decent enough, which is most of the time.
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 08:00 PM
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That makes me hurt.

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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That makes me hurt.
It would be like walking on the sides of your feet all the time. I'm going to start wrapping them. Ill deal with the fallout later if there is any, but I just can't watch her like this. She is barely able to walk around at night or play with the other dogs.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 08:42 PM
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It also makes me very mad - at the BYB that prey upon people to sell their wares, with no regard for the puppy they were responsible for bringing into this world. My wish this Christmas is that we could shut them all down. I wish the one that bred this little one could see a picture of her trying to play and see her pain. Thank you for what you are doing.

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 08:56 PM
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You should be getting bloodwork done ASAP. I would not diagnose anything as potentially damaging as this with a physical exam. Ask for a Chemistry panel that includes calcium, phosphorus, ALT, and Alk Phos. I would take at least two views of the affected limbs--either a VD or DV and a left or right lateral. A test of the proprioception of both forelimbs would also be beneficial. Like I mentioned earlier, this could be a number of things. If it's not responding to diet change, supplements, and rest, then it could not even be rickets at all, but it's hard to tell without having any previous diagnostics performed. It could be angular limb deformity or a carpal flexion condition related to asynchronous growth of radius/ulna/flexor/extensor tendons, which is not uncommon in growing large breed puppies. Some of these things can go away with time, good nutrition, and cage rest, but others need a more serious work up or even surgery. Please definitely discuss your concerns with your vet or seek another opinion! I'd be highly concerned with no improvement after a month. I'd also be careful with limb wrapping as it can cause circulation problems if too tight or lead to more tendon issues.

Good luck and I hope your puppy finds relief soon!

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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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You should be getting bloodwork done ASAP. I would not diagnose anything as potentially damaging as this with a physical exam. Ask for a Chemistry panel that includes calcium, phosphorus, ALT, and Alk Phos. I would take at least two views of the affected limbs--either a VD or DV and a left or right lateral. A test of the proprioception of both forelimbs would also be beneficial. Like I mentioned earlier, this could be a number of things. If it's not responding to diet change, supplements, and rest, then it could not even be rickets at all, but it's hard to tell without having any previous diagnostics performed. It could be angular limb deformity or a carpal flexion condition related to asynchronous growth of radius/ulna/flexor/extensor tendons, which is not uncommon in growing large breed puppies. Some of these things can go away with time, good nutrition, and cage rest, but others need a more serious work up or even surgery. Please definitely discuss your concerns with your vet or seek another opinion! I'd be highly concerned with no improvement after a month. I'd also be careful with limb wrapping as it can cause circulation problems if too tight or lead to more tendon issues.

Good luck and I hope your puppy finds relief soon!
Thank you for posting all of that!! I will bring her in tomorrow with that list and see what we can get started.
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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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It also makes me very mad - at the BYB that prey upon people to sell their wares, with no regard for the puppy they were responsible for bringing into this world. My wish this Christmas is that we could shut them all down. I wish the one that bred this little one could see a picture of her trying to play and see her pain. Thank you for what you are doing.
Totally agree.
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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 10:25 PM
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I've seen bowed legs on Dobe pups before, but not to that extent. It's often caused by rapid growth the puppies have for the first 3 months. At the first sign the breeder should've increased the calcium supplements and put the puppy on a proper daily amount of high protein large breed puppy food to control it. As the others have said, the vet should do a panel, including calcium levels. Good luck with that beautiful pup!
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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 05:08 PM
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Ok this is a weird one for me. I'm going to go personal about myself. I have absolutely no experience with rickets with dogs. I myself however had rickets when I was young. The way I was treated was calcium, Vitamin D and lots of sunlight. Sunlight helps the body to absorb the D. While rickets can be genetic it rarely is. It is usually from the mother having a very poor diet and the offspring not getting enough sunlight. They made me have a window seat at school. (that didn't break my heart but probably didn't help me to pay attention in class) Rickets today is still treated primarily the same as it was in the early 60's. That is pretty much all I know about rickets. The good thing is for me there wasn't a whole lot of bone deformity.
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 05:11 PM
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I wanted to edit to add that for me treatment was for a few years. I don't know how it is now or how it would be with a pup
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-19-2016, 01:44 PM
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How is this little girl doing?

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