Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

embark dna test

7K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  ROBinTEXAS 
#1 ·
I just got my embark dna test back and my puppy is carrier free and clear on the 160 genectic defects which have caused doberman owners hearache for many years. Futher more if our litter is clean I have to assume my male and female are also clean. Is any one familar with the embark test? Is any breeders offering embark tested dobe puppies? When will we clean up the mess the greedy breeders have chosen to do to our breed. We all have to stand together and demand clean genectics thru these new tests. Thanks for any comments
 
#3 ·
They test for the one known potential DCM contributor gene, the DCM2 has not been released from NC State yet, so that's the only place you can get that one done. Unfortunately neither of these genes is predictive of health, or illness as relates to DCM. I think for a while we're going to have to do things the old fashioned way, hips, elbows thyroid function, CERF and annual heart function testing. Watch our pedigrees for diversity and try to avoid linebreeding on early death or other illness, it can be done, it just takes commitment from all breeders across the board, and a willingness to look generations down the road, instead of being concerned with producing our next big winner in whatever venue we prefer
 
#4 ·
Actually, it looks like they just throw out a bunch of random tests. I seriously doubt that a Dobe would inherit something specific to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. :rolleyesww:

Some health testing in Dobes is strictly genetic, like vWd. The genetics of that are pretty simple. The dog is one of three results, genetically clear, genetically a carrier, or genetically affect (which does not necessarily mean the dog is clinically affected).

Doberman DCM, on the other hand, has tests available for two out of an unknown number of markers. The PDK4 test came first, and the DCM2 test has just been released. Some dogs testing negative (clear) for the PDK4 marker were still dying from DCM, and some dogs that tested positive (affected) were unaffected by DCM. I've also heard (second, third, or possibly even fourth hand) that the test isn't accurate for European dogs. However, unscrupulous breeders were testing their dogs for PDK4, and advertising them as "cardio clear" without ever doing the recommended Holters and echoes, which can help catch early stage DCM.

So, people simply doing a $200 scatter-shot test won't "clean up the mess the greedy breeders have chosen to do to our breed". Instead, all it will do is encourage the same "greedy breeders" who tout their "Cadio clear, PDK4 negative" dogs to tout their "Embrace testing clear" dogs.
 
#8 ·
And I just noticed my typo... I wrote "Embrace", like the insurance company, not "Embark"....
 
#9 ·
I'll have to go look this one up but it looks about as useful from what's posted above as the incredibly inaccurate "genetic" tests for what breeds contributed to your pound puppy.

Too many people wanting an "easy" answer and when it comes to genetics there really aren't any easy answers.
 
#10 ·
I'll have to go look this one up but it looks about as useful from what's posted above as the incredibly inaccurate "genetic" tests for what breeds contributed to your pound puppy.

Too many people wanting an "easy" answer and when it comes to genetics there really aren't any easy answers.
Hey! Those things are always 100% right. Ilka is clearly a Bulldog cross.

2016-5-30 Dogs & Yard DSC_0189 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

:rolleyesww: (Hmmm... I might have strained an eyeball muscle there....)
 
#12 ·
The embark dna test is a step in the right direction. Having 3 sets of dobes in the past 30 years I would rather have the dna test then none at all. I would like to know if dcm is possible and start my testing early then have my dog drop dead at 8 and not know! I'm not saying they are a 100% correct but it gives us a chance to get in front the medical problems.
 
#14 ·
Dogs that test homozygous negative for both of the known markers for DCM in Dobes can still develop DCM. There are an unknown number of markers (humans have like 30). That's why annual holters and echoes are so important.
 
#15 · (Edited)
At this point in time, both of the DNA tests that are available for DCM markers are really more for research purposes because they are not proving to be really indicative of the chances of getting DCM or not. It is nice to get the information, but there are too many unscrupulous breeders out there claiming "cardio free/clear" when that is not what the test means at all.
I don't know anything about the catchall DNA test you did - as it is not something that reputable breeders are using as far as I know. We study pedigrees for longevity and causes of death, do all the recommended testing, and then cross our fingers and pray. DCM is in every bloodline in every country they are bred in. We are nowhere close to being able to 100% predict the disease no matter what we do.
I test my dogs using cardiac ultrasound and 24 hour holters on a regular basis and have still lost 2 to sudden death (age 9 & 11).

So to me, the greedy breeders are the ones who do a quick DNA test and claim that their dogs don't have/won't get cardio. Shame on them!
 
#16 ·
That's some great input thank you. I still feel having as much medical info on my boy is important as I just orders dcm2 test from nc state. One of the members mentioned the vmd type 1 test embark missed could someone explain what that is? I plan to call embark and ask them to include that and the dcm2 test if possible. They really are great people the haters should read more about them.
 
#17 ·
#18 ·
Howdy, Sophie here! I noticed a couple of claims here that I wanted to clear up. First, let me say, we firmly believe that the best cure for a disease is prevention, and that's why we created our non-profit, The Doberman Diversity Project. To prevent a genetic disease, we need to know the genetics involved. Now, out of ALL the genetic testing possibilities in the world, we specifically chose to align with Embark because: #1 they offer the highest resolution DNA results on market #2 they graciously agreed to partner with us as a research initiative, which allows all Doberman owners enrolled in the Doberman Diversity Project to purchase tests at a discounted rate, making genetic testing much more affordable and lowering the barrier for Dobe owners/breeders #3 their quality control demands that they do not include anything on their panel unless it has >99% call rate, 100% specificity/sensitivity when a genotype is called. If you understand sensitivity/specificity, these are high standards! #4 they've agreed to take on Dobermans as a special project and help generate a Genome Wide Association Study to further explore the genetic underpinnings of Dobe-specific diseases. This is a golden key to understanding Doberman genetic diseases, like DCM. SO, with that all said, I think this helps to explain a couple of the issues brought up here:
1) All Dobermans are run on chips with vWD1. Due to Embark's high quality control (see above), they were still validating vWD1 at the time of their listing with OFA. Now that they've done that, all Dobes are run on chips with it.
2) DCM2 is not on the chips because the results of DCM2 haven't yet been published and cannot yet be validated by the scientific community. Remember, it's all about truth and quality control!
3) Is it only good for research? Nope. In addition to receiving your individual dog's gene-carrier status, you will also receive detailed analyses of your dog's inbreeding, including a karyogram (graphic of your dog's chromosomes) showing you exactly where in the DNA is your dog more or less inbred compared to the breed.

You know how folks always say: You can make an incredibly outbred dog with 2 inbred dogs? This is how. Dobe breeding has never been this smart. AND every dobe contributes to the Genome Wide Association Study for overall Dobe health research.
4) Breed mix ancestry: In the past, genetic testing labs were using a limited number of genetic markers, and it is possible, in the past with other companies, that breed mixes were misidentified. However, Embark is probably the most accurate identification tool because of its resolution and detail (see above). For more info on genetic markers and such, we hope to have answered it on our FAQs page: FAQs - THE DOBERMAN DIVERSITY PROJECT

As always, questions/concerns/ideas? I'm always here to chat!
 
#19 ·
I assume you are referencing Fitzmar's post with this?

3) Is it only good for research? Nope. In addition to receiving your individual dog's gene-carrier status, you will also receive detailed analyses of your dog's inbreeding, including a karyogram (graphic of your dog's chromosomes) showing you exactly where in the DNA is your dog more or less inbred compared to the breed.
At this time, with a still as yet unknown number of markers for DCM, and with dogs testing clear for the two known who still develop DCM, I really don't see how testing for DCM can be considered anything but research at this point. And people who tout their dogs as being "DNA clear for cardio", but don't do holters and echoes on their dogs are doing puppy buyers a disservice, IMO.
 
#20 ·
Sorry--I just don't feel the Embark gene test is sufficiently breed specific to be valuable for Dobes. The explanation offered about the cardio (DCM specifically) tests also really leave the situation wide open for the less than knowlegable and/or sleazy breeder to make these ridiculous claims about dogs who tested negative for two genes which are the only two known to have an effect on cardio in Dobermans being "clear".

This isn't accurate and since DCM is clearly a polygenetic disease it tends to lull folks who don't have a fairly good understanding of genetics into a very false sense of security.

I test my dogs as new test become available ONLY for their value as research tools (which also why I test all my dogs for all of the new tests as they become available--gives breeders a better look at laterals in their pedigrees as well as the direct lines) but I have a fairly good understanding of genetics in general and genetics in the Doberman in particular.

I think the money is better spent on Doberman specific gene tests (where available) and in proactive testing for things that aren't (like DCM) by doing Holters and echos regularly so that early cases can be treated appropriately.
 
#21 ·
I think we are addressing separate issues. There was question about whether the entire DNA panel is only good for research (or that's how I interpreted it), and my explanation was that the entire DNA panel is so comprehensive that it is good for research AND highly valuable in explaining your own dog's genetic attributes. That's what I understood the comment to imply and that's what my clarification meant. I apologize if we had some misunderstandings.

Due to the panel's high resolution, in addition to giving you gene carrier status for the Doberman specific genes - excluding only DCM2 because it is not yet published and validated in the scientific community - the panel also describes in revolutionary detail exactly where your Dobe carries more inbreeding in his/her chromosomes compared to the rest of the breed. This is exactly how we accomplish what people always said: that we can actually create highly diverse Dobes and still maintain a proper Dobe phenotype and temperament with very inbred dogs (see the graphic in my first post).

I should be clear that I'm making zero claims about DCM and our focus is greater than just one disease. Of course, people should never use only a genetic test to make decisions about DCM-risk. Genetic testing is just a tool. But it is a very powerful tool and it is even more powerful when it is as high resolution as this DNA panel and when we have the expertise of leading conservationists and geneticists at our finger tips to help us with mate selection and advanced breeder's tools (like the inbreeding chromosome graphic shown above). And that's the whole point: It's about thinking ahead. Of course, we believe that it is important to focus on finding diseased dogs early. Echos, holters, troponin, NT-proBNP can all be very useful for detecting disease that's already there. But we are trying to decrease the incidence of disease by preventing it in the first place. That's the difference, and that's why we have this very comprehensive genetic testing panel and a team of conservationists and geneticists to help us in the endeavor. Hope that explains the subtle difference that we are trying to take with this whole approach!
 
#22 ·
Quick question on the diversity project. We have two neutered males -- one was a stray (and currently dying from a brain tumor) and one is from a breeder (and dying from copper storage). Other than idle curiosity, is there any reason to have our dogs tested? I could potentially see the value of testing the dog whose breeder we can identify, since that could tie to a breeder profile at some point, but there's no way to know where the stray came from. Neither dog will contribute further to the gene pool. Is there any research advantage to having their data? I don't necessarily mind paying to contribute to a research project that could help the breed, but without knowing the lineage of the dog, I don't understand how the information could help. Thanks!
 
#23 ·
In a nutshell, every dog that is tested contributes their DNA to the genome wide association study component of the Doberman Diversity Project. It's probably best to check out the project's website for first-hand information (THE DOBERMAN DIVERSITY PROJECT - Home). The project is very ambitious -- working to DNA test 1,000 Dobermans globally (not just from the USA and not just from Europe) so the can dig into Doberman-specific genetic diseases. The previous DCM genetic test studies relied on far fewer dogs and the tests turned out to not be reliably predictive. Don't quote me but I think one of the Meurs' studies used 66 DCM dogs and 66 dogs that were older ... something like ten years old with no signs of DCM yet). So the broadness of this study, combined with the fact that it's using a patented high definition research grade DNA testing chip is promising. So, yes, every dog's DNA helps support research. I do know that while registration papers are not important, this test is the only one the first checks that each dog is 100% Doberman so they know when they find pockets of diverse genes, they are finding them in Dobermans (not dogs with a little "extra" in there that might explain the diverse genes).
I'm always a little nervous about too much reliance on genetic dna disease tests and I feel the same about putting too much reliance on genetic diversity testing. That's what I like about the Doberman Diversity Project -- they are comprehensive in nature and are not telling breeders how to breed and they are discouraging people from putting too many eggs in any one basket (disease testing, diversity testing, etc.). For folks who haven't tested their dogs, it's a screaming deal. For people who consent to contribute their dog's DNA to research, they get the whole test for $150 and it includes genetic diversity looking at haplotypes/haplogroups and other diversity compatibility measures (including, hold onto your hat and sit own, the first genetic COI), disease testing (PDK4, vWD1, DM, Multidrug Sensitivity (MDR1), Alanine Aminotransferase Activity (GPT) on Chromosome 13 (associated with liver function in Dobermans), coat color genetics (brown/black/dilute), and a free breeding tool (due out in late May) that shows potential mates with all of this stuff and more (if the dog owner inputs the information -- show or working titles, and non-genetic tests eyes, hips, etc). I paid several hundreds of dollars to get just part of this so it's a good bargain -- plus its the only place we can test our Dobermans where the DNA is put to use in research.

So yes, for me (someone who tested through NCSU, WSU, Davis, etc.) it's a super exciting project and a unique affordable testing opportunity. :)
 
#25 ·
Super feedback. And that's exactly why we've got a PhD epigeneticist on our genetics team. She's wonderful and the work she's doing (and it sounds like you are doing the same?) is fascinating. Are you also a geneticist? If you're interested in Dobermans and genetics, touch bases with us. We are always excited to add people to our team! You can email me directly at Robin.Loreth@DobermanDiversityProject.org. We're a non-profit, so the work doesn't pay (or get us discounts) but it's exciting and full of promise! Thanks for your comments. :)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top