Bleeding nose, mouth, and anus - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Bleeding nose, mouth, and anus

Our 31/2 year old male Dobe caught a case of whipworms about a month ago. We gave him the Panacur as prescribed by our vet, but we gave it incorrectly. Instead of 20mm by mouth once a day for 3 days, then repeat in 2 weeks, and repeat again in 3 months. We gave him the 20cc a day until the bottle was empty. Never repeated. It was a mistake. Can't go back, and the vet said it wouldn't hurt him. Thing is, without the repeat dosage the whipworms eggs hatch and they come back. We were blissfully unaware, and our dog was getting better for 30 days. Then he started to have the same runny, bloody, stool he had when this all started. That's when we became aware that we messed up the first time. Well, back to the vet. He didn't know we had given him the medicine wrong the first time. When he saw the bloody stool, he thought it might be an Irritated Bowel. Suggested we do a ultrasound. That's OK, but it cost about $500 here, and doesn't include any treatment. We're not ever tight or cheap with our dog, but i just don't have the confidence in the initial diagnosis of irritable bowel. And, after reading more, i've found that the ultrasound doesn't really show much. A bowel biopsy is really needed to confirm IBS. Getting more $$$$

Next chapter. This morning, after restarting last night on the Panacur, he woke up with minor bleeding through the nose and mouth. His stool was already showing blood. He's not bleeding badly. Probably only a quarter cup total, if that. Still, that scared us. Took him to another vet early this morning, but they didn't come in until 9. So, i took him home and started doing research. Seems Dobe's in particular are inclined towards vWD, type 1. We think that the reoccurrence of bloody runny stools are the whipworms coming back, and that the bleeding mouth and nose are signs of vWD that has been aggravated by the bleeding caused by the whipworms. None of this is good, but at this point, we are trending towards completing the Panacur treatment, and waiting to see if the bleeding from the mouth and nose reoccur, and the runny stools firm up.

Opinions???
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post #2 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 01:47 PM
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You need the Dna test for vwd.


Can you post your location so that someone in he group can point you in the direction of a more done savvy vet?
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post #3 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-02-2016, 03:16 PM
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You need to do the DNA test for vwd. This is vital for any surgeries in the future.
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post #4 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 09:22 AM
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I truly don't know what may cause the bleeding from nose and mouth in your guy, but it would concern me enough to seek veterinary care to discover the cause. So many things can be at play, some of them not very good. Some may be more benign. I've not seen whipworms cause this, and while a bad case of whips is problematic to say the least, the time frame here is rather short for a dog to have another heavy load of whips. Could happen, just an odd timeline. If this were one of my dogs, I probably would be looking for something else that might be happening unseen. IBS could be the cause for lack of thrift and poor stool, there are also malignancies that can cause all these symptoms, and that is what I personally would want to rule out. Sending lots of good thoughts for your guy to have a benign diagnosis, and bounce back 100%!
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post #5 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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He's going back to the vet this morning. Getting the VetGen dna vWD test done. No bleeding last night. Just some snorting and breathing hard last night. First stool this morning wasn't too bad. Second had lots of mucus and blood.

We think that since we didn't do the first whipworm treatment follow up, that the eggs hatched and he was symptomatic a second time. We believe that's causing the blood in the stool. The blood from the nose and mouth and the hard breathing and snorting is something else. We think maybe vWD? Having two problems at once? Well, maybe... There's just no reliable way to see exactly what's wrong. For now, we're just going to complete the whipworm treatment, again, the right way. Get him tested for vWD, and see if he gets better over the coming days. If he doesn't, we'll try to get him to another vet that may know more about Dobe's. Not a lot of those out there. Even in a big city like Houston, TX. BTW, we live in the Clear Lake area of town. We use TLC and Baylor animal clinics and Bay Area Animal Hospital has been suggested, but we haven't tried them, yet.
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post #6 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Doing that this morning. VetGen test
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post #7 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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vWD test was taken. 7-10 days before results. Vet says he thinks nose bleed was due to sinus congestion. He's seeing a big increase in sinus problems this year. Hoping that could be the issue. Anal blood may still be due to reinfestation of whipworms. Third dose due today, then we'll have to wait ? days to see if the blood in stools goes down. Fingers crossed...
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post #8 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-04-2016, 01:23 AM
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Bud, I'm glad to hear it looks like your guy is improving. Fingers crossed it continues that way. And hello from a former Houstonian, though that was before I owned dogs so I can't help on the vet rec front.

Speaking of/Not to hijack the thread but...

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Can you post your location so that someone in he group can point you in the direction of a more dobe savvy vet?
How would one go about finding a dobe savvy vet? Is it just word-of-mouth? It's something I've been thinking about recently because when I took Shiner to her first vet appointment after noticing a hitch in her gait and thought something was up with her knee, the vet was "diagnosing" her with Wobblers before she'd (the vet) even seen Shiner move yet just because she was a dobe. Turns out it was just her knee after all...
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post #9 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-04-2016, 06:07 AM
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,,,,,,,,Speaking of/Not to hijack the thread but....
How would one go about finding a dobe savvy vet? Is it just word-of-mouth? It's something I've been thinking about recently because when I took Shiner to her first vet appointment after noticing a hitch in her gait and thought something was up with her knee, the vet was "diagnosing" her with Wobblers before she'd (the vet) even seen Shiner move yet just because she was a dobe. Turns out it was just her knee after all...
1st - Look for a veterinary certified in chiropractor and acupuncture.
- ours Vet is also a gifted surgeon & good diagnoser
- people with race horses, know who the best Vets are too
- our General Practice Vet was recommended by show horse people & our Holistic Vet, when our last girl need a few chiropractor adjustments
- our Vet also saved our former Amy's life, during an emergency surgery...it pays to find a good one, in advance
- even at the Vet clinic, we only use 2 of the 6 Vets...and book appointments, for specific Vet by name

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

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post #10 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-05-2016, 12:56 PM
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Bud-
If I remember your dog's pedigree correctly I think he was from a carrier x carrier breeding. So it's possible that he is affected. Glad you're getting the DNA test done to be sure.

Rectal bleeding could be due to the whipworms. Obviously the nasal bleeding would concern me very much.

The recommended vet in the Houston area for Dobe specific issues is Dr. Ginnana Crouch. She's in Katy though. Bay Area is much closer and I have had good experiences with them before.

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post #11 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, Uno is no better. After more research and talking to a trainer we used when Uno was a pup, we're now VERY afraid of DCM. His symptoms point to DCM of the left ventricle. He's very young for symptoms of DCM at 3 years 8 months. We have an appointment this morning at Bay Area Vet Specialist with a Vet Cardiologist and Internal Medicine specialist.

I've been doing a lot of research on DCM. It's a terrible killer of Dobes. Genetically transferred. What is so insidious about DCM is that breeders "don't want to know". DCM typically only is diagnosed in 5-6% of dogs to 4 years old, but up to 56% of Dobes as they age. A breeder has a lot of time and money in a dog to make him valuable to breed. The last thing they want is a prime breeding, maybe champion, dog to show a problem that would make him/her unsuitable to breed after all that time and money is spent. Another user on this site posted this very informative video with information about DCM in Germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068. It's 40 minutes long, but worth your time.
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post #12 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Unfortunately, Uno is no better. After more research and talking to a trainer we used when Uno was a pup, we're now VERY afraid of DCM. His symptoms point to DCM of the left ventricle. He's very young for symptoms of DCM at 3 years 8 months. We have an appointment this morning at Bay Area Vet Specialist with a Vet Cardiologist and Internal Medicine specialist.

I've been doing a lot of research on DCM. It's a terrible killer of Dobes. Genetically transferred. What is so insidious about DCM is that breeders "don't want to know". DCM typically only is diagnosed in 5-6% of dogs to 4 years old, but up to 56% of Dobes as they age. A breeder has a lot of time and money in a dog to make him valuable to breed. The last thing they want is a prime breeding, maybe champion, dog to show a problem that would make him/her unsuitable to breed after all that time and money is spent. Another user on this site posted this very informative video with information about DCM in Germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068. It's 40 minutes long, but worth your time.
Unfortunately we all are very familiar with DCM. What symptoms does your boy have that leads you to think he has DCM? You haven't mentioned any that I'm aware of. Have you reached out to the breeder about his siblings or seeing any other issues? Have you had a full blood work up done?

I didn't want to say this before, and I have VERY little experience, but your boys symptoms sound more to me like cancer than DCM. I've only known a couple of dogs with DCM but none of them bled from the mouth and nose that I was aware of. It was more coughing.

Also, to say breeders don't "Want to know" is incredibly rude. There is NO test for DCM. As soon as an American breeder learns of it they stop breeding (or should). I'd be willing to bet your boys parents were tested. There's no easy answer. Many times DCM doesn't show up until a dog is 7 or 10 years old. In the meantime you've been breeding unknowingly. Also, please don't compare American breeders to European. There are MANY breeders in Europe who KNOWINGLY breed from dogs that died of DCM. For so many years they claimed their dogs were healthier (because they don't test there (still barely test)) but randomly being food poisoned, shot, hit by trucks,.... only to find out years later that they all died from DCM. I know you're heart broken, and I don't blame you but there's no answer to DCM.

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post #13 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Unfortunately, Uno is no better. After more research and talking to a trainer we used when Uno was a pup, we're now VERY afraid of DCM. His symptoms point to DCM of the left ventricle. He's very young for symptoms of DCM at 3 years 8 months. We have an appointment this morning at Bay Area Vet Specialist with a Vet Cardiologist and Internal Medicine specialist.

I've been doing a lot of research on DCM. It's a terrible killer of Dobes. Genetically transferred. What is so insidious about DCM is that breeders "don't want to know". DCM typically only is diagnosed in 5-6% of dogs to 4 years old, but up to 56% of Dobes as they age. A breeder has a lot of time and money in a dog to make him valuable to breed. The last thing they want is a prime breeding, maybe champion, dog to show a problem that would make him/her unsuitable to breed after all that time and money is spent. Another user on this site posted this very informative video with information about DCM in Germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068. It's 40 minutes long, but worth your time.

I'm so sorry that you may have to go through this with your poor boy. Dcm treatments have come a long way and many on this forum have worked with their vets and extended the lives of their beloved dogs.

As for breeders. There is a definitive line that distinguishes those that care and those that care about money. The breeders I know of all do yearly holter and echo. While this doesn't mean the dog won't develop dcm at some point. It tells us the dog isn't showing signs or symptoms at that time. It IS important to the good breeders to breed as healthy as possible. I have yet to myself see a breeder breed a dog showing signs of dcm.
This isn't a guarantee that it won't show up later or that it won't show up in the pups but that is where breeder and buyer home work comes into play.

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post #14 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, didn't mean to put all breeders in the same basket. I was echoing what was said in the youtube video, and it was about German breeders, not American. I do see how DCM could put breeders between a rock and a hard place. If they actually do test their dogs once a year, that's about all anyone can do. With the prevalence of DCM is Dobes, i don't think we can do too much.

DNA test are being developed to identify DCM. VetGen has a type 1 and 2 DNA test available.

"DCM-Dilated Cardiomyopathy
Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) is a disease of the heart that can result in sudden death of relatively young dogs. Early in the disease, there are often no clinical symptoms, but the weakened pumping capacity of the heart can eventually lead to congestive heart failure. In some breeds, notably Doberman Pinschers, the disease is often an inherited one and Doberman Pinschers are one of the most common breeds of dogs to be affected with DCM.

Dr. Kate Meurs at Washington State University identified one genetic mutation, (PDK4; NCSU DCM1), that is responsible for inherited DCM in Dobermans and developed a DNA test for it, DCM1.

Dr Meurs has now identified a second genetic mutation in Doberman Pinschers with DCM, (PKD4; NCSU DCM2), and we are happy to be able to offer that test through Vetgen. The test for the second mutation is DCM2.

Dogs that carry both mutation are at the highest risk of getting sick from the disease, although dogs with a mutation in either gene can develop the disease as well."

Not perfect, but a start. Also wearing the 24 hour monitoring vest can help identify dogs with problems. IMO, the best is the Echo Cardiogram, ECG, that clearly shows an enlarged ventricle.
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post #15 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Vet Cardiologist visit today

Well, the Cardiologist doesn't think UNO has DCM. We're not sure yet, but he couldn't detect a heart murmur that is usually present with DCM.

Uno is scheduled tomorrow for extensive testing. $4000 worth of testing! The vet could feel a mass about an inch inside of Uno's rectum. One of the things they'll be doing tomorrow is a colonoscopy. The mass isn't too large, and due to the location and the size, he plans to remove it for biopsy. They'll also be ultrasounding his abdomen and heart to see what may be there.

His second issue is a blockage in the left nasal passage. Vet can't tell where the blockage is visually. They have to do a rhinoscopy to see what's blocking the passage. If it's a foreign object, they'll remove it. If it's a mass, they'll try to remove, or get a sample for biopsy.

Not a great scenario. Best case, we're just hoping that the retrum mass is benign, and that the nasal blockage is just something that got caught up when he was sneezing or snorting around. Worse case, the masses are cancerous. That would be catastrophic. We love Uno way too much to lose him. He's just the best dog we could ever ask for. Neither of us are emotionally prepared to lose Uno, but if he has cancer, we're just not sure what would be best for him. Going to be another rough night tonight. We only slept an hour last night. Tonight's not going to be any better.
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post #16 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 07:02 PM
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So sorry you and Uno are going through this. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

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post #17 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
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Well, the Cardiologist doesn't think UNO has DCM. We're not sure yet, but he couldn't detect a heart murmur that is usually present with DCM.

Uno is scheduled tomorrow for extensive testing. $4000 worth of testing! The vet could feel a mass about an inch inside of Uno's rectum. One of the things they'll be doing tomorrow is a colonoscopy. The mass isn't too large, and due to the location and the size, he plans to remove it for biopsy. They'll also be ultrasounding his abdomen and heart to see what may be there.

His second issue is a blockage in the left nasal passage. Vet can't tell where the blockage is visually. They have to do a rhinoscopy to see what's blocking the passage. If it's a foreign object, they'll remove it. If it's a mass, they'll try to remove, or get a sample for biopsy.

Not a great scenario. Best case, we're just hoping that the retrum mass is benign, and that the nasal blockage is just something that got caught up when he was sneezing or snorting around. Worse case, the masses are cancerous. That would be catastrophic. We love Uno way too much to lose him. He's just the best dog we could ever ask for. Neither of us are emotionally prepared to lose Uno, but if he has cancer, we're just not sure what would be best for him. Going to be another rough night tonight. We only slept an hour last night. Tonight's not going to be any better.
Sounds like you have another night of no answers. I'm sorry. I've been there, it's a hopeless feeling, but we've all been there and we are here for you.

The DNA tests for DCM are, at best, tiny pieces to a much bigger puzzle, so breeders aren't willing to change their breeding programs for then. A good breeder will HOLTER, and echo once a year
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post #18 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 11:07 PM
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So sorry that you are going through this, I've had my fair share of special needs dogs and know how stressful it is when you don't know what is wrong with your dog. While I certainly hope Uno has something less dangerous than cancer going on, I want to let you know that my dog was recently diagnosed with cancer, and although I was terrified that it would be a death sentence, she is doing quite well.

Hannah is a senior Doberman with DCM (well managed with meds) and apparently VWD affected, which we didn't know until they tested her before surgery (we've only had her for 2 years and were never planning on surgery due to her heart). She developed an extremely aggressive mammary tumor, which was successfully removed, but the vets suspected the cancer had metastasized to her lymph nodes. She recently started chemo and has almost no negative symptoms. Apparently dogs handle chemo much better than humans. While I don't know what her long term prognosis is, she has a high quality of life. She eats, she plays with my other dog, and otherwise is enjoying herself. And that includes Barn Hunt practice and competitions (working on earning her Senior title).

Again, I hope your dog doesn't have the same difficulties as Hannah has had, but I just wanted to let you know that there is still hope even with things like DCM and cancer.
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post #19 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 06:12 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the kind comments. You have certainly walked the walk. It's encouraging to hear that even if he is diagnosed with cancer, there may still be a light at the end of the tunnel. We'll be waiting all day, and then another unknown period to get the biopsies back. We're pretty scared at this point. Still, it may not be cancer...
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post #20 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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The worst news. Met with Vet this morning dropping Uno off for testing. They did X-rays yesterday before we left. After reviewing the X-rays, the Vet saw many tumors throughout Uno. His heart, stomach, retum, nose, etc., all had multiple tumors. He was just X-rayed multiple times this January when we thought, incorrectly, that he'd swallowed a sock. Those X-rays didn't show anything. If all this has happened since Jan., then this is probably a more aggressive form of cancer. We're keeping him there today and having a Vet Oncologist do a light sedation and try to get enough cells for a biopsy of the tumor in the nose and retum. Then we can know, for sure, which type of cancer Uno has. One is somewhat treatable with chemo, the other is not treatable. Chemo on dogs is different than human. They don't give such heavy doses and the dogs handle it better, according to the Vet. They are treating more for quality of life than longevity. Dog chemo typically extends life for 1 to 1 1/2 years. We'll know more when we pick him up tonight, or in a day or two when the biopsies are analysed. I've been wrong so many times already, i hate to speculate about outcomes, treatment, or anything. I just think that since it progressed so quickly from none showing on Xrays to all the spots he now has, that the prognosis isn't good.

My wife and i are both wrecks. We have barely slept in two days. I'm no wimp. I'm a man, former Marine, and hold my emotions pretty well. But, we've both cried like babies all day. It's like we both have lost our best friend. Uno never left our side. My wife has only spent 3 nights not sleeping with him since we got him. He spends all day with me every day. I take him everywhere i go. I can't look anywhere in the house without thinking about seeing him there. He spends part of every day on my lap, 92 lbs or not, he's always been a lap dog. Neither of us can think about life without Uno. I'm even crying while writing this. Poor Uno, why you? Such a short life. We've made it the best we could. Damn Cancer.
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post #21 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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BTW, Bay Area Vet Specialist is where we took Uno. Very nice there. Dr Brayley was so kind and understanding when he told me about Uno. Thanks for the suggestion.
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post #22 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 12:48 PM
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Oh how incredibly tragic... Our thoughts are with you, your wife and Uno.

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post #23 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 01:16 PM
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Bud,

I'm so sorry that you, your wife and Uno are having to go through this--losing any pet is hard enough but to be faced with this with such a young dog is doubly heartbreaking.

Nothing is easy about the kind of decision you are faced with--but sometimes, as hard as it is the very best last gift you can give to a beloved pet is release from pain.
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post #24 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 02:33 PM
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I have no words, but please know you are all very much in my thoughts.
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post #25 of 99 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 02:38 PM
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So sorry to hear this tragic news.

Sending all the positive mojo we can on your direction.


I've known no deeper love, than that from my beloved Doberman

Think the crap in your kibble is good? Check it out

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pe...edients_2.html
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