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Early Spay and Neuter.

10K views 76 replies 20 participants last post by  Rosemary 
#1 ·
#3 ·
Very interesting read. This has always been a controversial topic as many tell you keeping a male intact can cause cancer, prostate, and other issues. I only have had males so I'm not sure in the females. My last male was done at about a year. I have been contemplating doing my new puppy sooner. I'd be really interested to hear from the community and the vet/breeders with the experiences they have had with this issue.
 
#4 ·
I would never castrate a male that early. I have owned both intact and neutered males and fortunately have never experienced the issues that are being discussed. A male Doberman is really not physically mature until well over 2 years. Perhaps 3 years would be a better average. To deprive them of the natural male hormones that make them what they are is a really bad idea IMO.

I can pretty much spot an early neutered male Dobe from a block away. I ran into a red foster yesterday. He was a 3 yo who had been in the system pretty much his whole life. His coat was nice and he seemed well socialized. Yet his conformation was typical of a dog who was neutered too early.

He was lanky, quite tall and poorly muscled.

My last three boys were neutered at about 2 1/2 years. After some reflection and a good deal of research, I have come to the conclusion that I had their testicles removed to make my life easier. There was never an issue of an accidental whelping.

I've been on the fence with McCoy who will be 2 yo in September. In have decided that unless a medical issue arises, he will stay intact.

So... Half my guys have been neutered and half will have been left "au natural" .

I am curious as to others thought and experiences.

John
Portland OR
 
#6 · (Edited)
With all the new research coming out, I find myself shaking my head at how my vet and I are supposed to tell our clients that spaying and neutering, 6 months, across the board is the way to go. I know, as frustrating as it is, not all owners are responsible enough to trust with an intact dog (it would be interesting to see how much 'oops' litters contribute to shelters and rescues, as opposed to the fallout from the deliberate efforts of BYBs and commercial breeders? But that's a whole other rant:p). But for responsible people who truly want to do the best by their dogs, I see no reason spaying and neutering should have to be seen as mandatory. There's so much that goes into being a good owner- proper training and socilization, keeping the dog safely confined at home and safely under control while in public, among other things. An intact animal doesn't have to be impossible to live with, and a neutered animal isn't immune to behavioral problems, and people need to know this. I hope this research manages to become widely acknowledged, and people put more thought into what's best for their dogs, rather than more convenient for themselves.
Of course, there will always be those whose rational not to neuter is nothing more complicated than "Nobody's choppin' mah dog's ballz off!!" -_-
 
#7 ·
I'm very interested in this topic. All of our previous dogs have been rescues, adopted from the SPCA, and have been neutered before we brought them home which seems to be SPCA policy. The youngest we adopted was a 12 week old lab/Rott mix who was also neutered before we got him. We had to put him down 2 weeks ago at the ripe old age of 14, after a long battle with degenerative myelopathy. :crying: We also lost a GSD/lab mix from the SPCA due to DM, and have in our home a GSD/Rott mix we adopted from the SPCA who is suffering from hip dysplasia. :(

We've been looking for a purebred Doberman because we want to have some knowledge of the breeding and genetics and we are in a financial position take on the responsibility. I know there's no health guarantee, and we've had great rescue pets over the last 20 years.

I've seen that breeders will sometimes include in the purchase contract that altering the dog before 2 years old will void the health guarantee. So there must be a good health reason for that.

Am I right in thinking the difference in when to spay/neuter is because the SPCA doesn't want more unwanted pets, and breeders want the dog to mature before altering?

I guess I've been indoctrinated from the media to spay/neuter your pets as early as possible. I've always thought it was in the best interest of the health of my pet. But now I see there are 2 different sides.
 
#9 ·
The practices of spaying female and neutering male dogs, both referred to herein as neutering, have become routine in the U.S. in the last three decades (Trevejo et al. 2011). In Europe, the practice of neutering varies among countries. Increasingly, in the U.S., neutering is being performed prior to 6 months, as commonly advocated by both veterinarians and shelter personnel. The basis of this perspective is mostly in the interest of pet population control.


That highlighted last sentence says it all........












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#10 ·
I didn't read this article but have read previous writings on the subject. I've never been a believer in altering my dogs except for medical reasons. Not sure if this article also mentioned the link between thyroid disorders and altered dogs? In 40 years of owning dogs, I've not ever had an ooppss litter. My eldest girl right now turned 15 in April, she is still intact, and still cycles and is healthy as a horse. Yes, it can be rather annoying to have an intact male singing when the girls are in season, but I can live with that inconvenience<G> I do not see behavioral issues related to intact or not, what I DO see are folks who don't bother to train and socialize their dogs, or who buy dogs with questionable temperament and then blame their intact status for problems. Interrupting the endocrine loop is never a good thing from a health standpoint IMHO, so unless there is a compelling medical cause, my dogs will continue to remain intact. My DObes are too young yet for comparison, but my intact Belgians live a long life typically. Most of them make it to 14. Some go quite a bit beyond that, the oldest being almost 17 when she passed. So being intact is not a factor affecting longevity as far as I can see, and even the old girls now(11 and 15) take no medication other than HW preventative. Am I just lucky? Maybe.
 
#11 ·
I've never been a believer in altering my dogs except for medical reasons.

so unless there is a compelling medical cause, my dogs will continue to remain intact .
Absolutely!!

I hate it when people alter dogs for their own convenience..

If you can't be a responsible owner to manage an intact dog, don't own one!!








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#12 ·
Alright, this site has completely changed the way I see neutering male dogs, but where does this come into play with spaying a female? I obviously don't agree with the majority of vets that just spay to control the amount of dogs so they want me to spay my girl as early as possible, but how do I decide whether I should risk the health issues that they say come from not spaying or the health issues that recent tests show come from spaying? Not to mention the fact that I practically have to spay my current bitch because she will be a service dog, I'm just trying to decide when. I've been thinking about doing it after her first or maybe second heat, but I can't seem to find conclusive data to sway me one way or the other.
 
#14 ·
I let my girl, Jada, go through three seasons before considering a spay. Then some sources I read advised spaying her between the next two seasons. IOW, three months after her last season and three months before she came in season again was the time to spay.
She is now 4 yrs. No incontinence issues and she has remained her svelte figure.
 
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#15 ·
GR, I skimmed the article. While I enjoyed the info and I think it obviously points the the already assumed conclusion that spaying after a few heats is whats best (if you have to spay), I should have been more clear in that I wish there was a study specifically for dobes. I'm very likely to spay our girl after her second heat, and while I feel quite confident about it, there is always that little seed of doubt. Thanks for your response and posting this article in the first place. I wish vets would post this stuff in their office. I made me so sad every time I saw a 4 month old pup come to my work after just being "fixed".
 
#16 ·
for puppy buyers who want to spay or neuter their pups, I always urge them to wait until the dog is 15-18 months of age to let the bones finish growing.

Something you COULD consider with your girl is getting her uterus removed but leave the ovaries, yes she'll still cycle, but you won't have any discharge that could get messy as a service dog
 
#19 ·
Mine is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I am pro-early neutering, especially of females, though less so of large and giant breeds (though I'd still recommend by 12 months of age). I just finished a 2-week externship at a shelter in Arkansas and whoo...let me tell you. It gives you a whole new perspective. I've read many of y'all's posts (or at least the regulars) and y'all seem like good, responsible owners. So, so many people are not. Sometimes population medicine trumps individual medicine. I am also more comfortable operating on a younger, small animal that will have small vessels (less bleeding), less fat/tissue (less hunting for structures!), and will recover and heal faster than their adult counterparts. Also, the quicker my surgeries, the less time patients will have to be under anesthesia, which is always a huge win in my book--less risk of perioperative complications.

As for the linked study...I like that these studies are happening, though I wish there were more prospective studies than all of the retrospective ones. Retrospective study designs cannot demonstrate causation. This study also uses a breed that is highly known for joint and bone problems, so that's already going to increase numbers. The records are also taken from a Teaching Hospital which means a full suite of specialists and special diagnostics and clients that are potentially more likely to pursue these tests and treatments. Also, what about diet? Lineage? Environmental conditions? Geography? It's a step in the right direction, but not solid enough to sway my opinion. What I'd like to see is data taken from multiple private practices that have patients that are followed from a young age to death, whether or not a pet was sterilized. There would need to be some structure, of course, but I think there's a wealth of data in the hands of thousands of private practitioners all over the world.
 
#25 ·
I think many "average" pet owners aren't capable of managing intact animals. It's unfortunate, but it's true. I *would* like to see better education so that most people CAN, because I think it's healthier for our companion animals to remain intact at least until they are mature, if possible. However, that's in the hands of people who are able to successfully manage them. Given my general skepticism about the public (and having seen far too many results of trust), I have no problem with people who choose to spay and neuter young.

I agree with you that we need better studies. I would love to see larger, broader studies being done that are encompassing more breeds, studying results of dogs altered at maturity (rather than just pediatric neuter verses unaltered), etc. I think this is an area worth studying more extensively.

I also think that if we're going to pull back on early spay and neuter we also need to make sure people are more educated on the risks of NOT spaying/neutering. I do know a few people, unfortunately, who are unaware of things like the signs of pyometra. Responsibility has to be there.
 
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#20 ·
Hey dvm2be

Opinions, when coming from a well established frame of reference, should never be summarily dismissed. Given your situation, in school, and having contemporary hands on experience, I would trust that most folks here on DT would take your POV seriously. This obviously doesn't mean that one would take your perspective with any more weight than one would take any other educated POV.

Me.. I have read pretty much everything that has crossed my desk with respect to early neutering, as my youngest approaches 2 years old. That being said, I do disagree with you.
In fact, although my last 3 boys were neutered, McCoy will stay intact unless a specific medical issue arises where he would benefit from castration.

Nice to hear from you!

Your friend

John
Portland OR
 
#21 ·
And that's totally okay that you disagree. I will always be happy to discuss with an owner their concerns and hope that they will hear out mine as well or at least be open-minded as to why I make the recommendations I make based on my professional and personal experiences. At the end of the day, it is the owner's decision and that's okay too. We both have to sleep at night.
 
#23 ·
This is another one of those very controversial topics.
I currently have an intact male in my home and he will stay intact unless health concerns arise that would necessitate neutering.

Sienna is currently still intact (going through heat #2) and in the future she will have ovary sparing spay done. My breeder was open to the idea and is curious to see how things fare in the future.
After years of following the whole spay neuter at 6 months for decades and dealing with the fall out I will never S/N before 2 years of age again. I'm sorry but paediatric S/N is gross. Those hormones are in the body for a reason and much needed.
More and more studies are coming out showing the negative impact of removing jose hormones from the body. Vasectomy and ovary sparing spay are becoming more and more main stream and while there is a learning curve to everything we do to our pets. It has taken decades for many vets to catch on that early S/n is in truth having a negative impact on our canine companions. There are still many vets in denial to this information.

While I do believe in personal choice I also believe in informed choices.
 
#26 ·
As a breeder, I'm careful who my puppies go to and do require that pet puppies be spayed and neutered. I recommend that bitches go through one heat cycle before spaying - then spaying 1/2 way between cycles. I spayed one bitch at 6 months when she did not turn out for show (bad mouth) before placing her in a pet home - I regret spaying her early as I really could see that she did not develop well because of it. For males, I require that they be neutered by 18 months - this is always negotiable depending on the home. Some have been neutered earlier and some later.... some stayed intact. I personally think a hard line approach by the breeder on when to neuter or spay is just not the way to go. As long as people understand the issues of early neuter or spay, I let it go.

I neutered my Harvard right at 7 years of age due to him getting prostrate infections - I have noticed that he lost some of his very "hard body" look, but he of course still looks very male..... just a little soft like most middle aged guys - haha. If not for the prostrate issues, I would never have neutered him - he never ever lifted his leg in the house and was pretty easy to live with unless I had a bitch in heat. He would get fairly piggy and would not eat well when she was in standing heat. At the time I neutered him, I no longer had any intact bitches in the house, so that was not an issue. I would never keep a male with recurring prostrate issues intact - not fair to them, and a serious health risk.
 
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#27 ·
Service dogs are required to be neutered whether male or female, at least in the US.

I do think most of our country's push to spay & neuter is to help combat the pet and feral animal overpopulation. While I usually dislike doing invasive altering without real need, I've come to realize that it IS a real need. The sad fact is indeed that most "average pet owners" aren't properly equipped to control unwanted pregnancies, and all it takes is ONE "ooops" to create hundreds or thousands of new, unhomed, and usually mutt animals.

Besides our farm being the local "drop spot" since we have no local shelters or animal control -- and this is a very pricey deterrent to me already, because we've struggled to feed the numbers we get in the past -- but I must, with such great shame, admit to learning my lesson firsthand. My first dog (Achaiah, whom I spoke of in my intro), was the smartest, most loyal, best-listening dog ever. I never worried about off-leash or "oopsies" with her. I kept her on the leash whenever she was in heat and only took her outside when the neighborhood dogs weren't around. She was a great dog who listened and always waited permission to go out... Until I guess she had enough of that nonsense. She was 5 or 6, had never given me issue, decided she -oh so needed it-, and she waited until I was hugely pregnant (with my 2nd, no less) and carrying groceries in both arms before she literally tried to push me down and bolted as I came in the door. Lost her panties somewhere and came back pregnant. I learned my lesson, never was there an 'oopsie' again, and I found homes for the (luckily small) litter.

Still, I should have spayed her, because she ended up dying of pyometra, which I'd never even heard of until then. I had 12 wonderful years with her, but I wish I'd had more. I feel like there definitely would have been more, and I spent thousands trying to save her when it was too late. I'd thought I was an exceptionally responsible pet owner, especially for having gotten her in my teens, but being an average pet owner and never doing anything remotely 'professionally', I'm now astounded at how little I knew for working so hard to be a good one.

Now I've done much more research and fully support it. In fact, I'll admit that I was pretty offended at first when I learned of spay/neuter contracts. I'm a farmer, and when I buy an animal, it's mine outright and I usually indeed want to breed the best ones. But my good-ol-had-critters-my-whole-life mentality has certainly changed, especially due to all the numbers of pregnant/obviously lactating dogs and cats that have been dropped off at my place since we moved here, and this site and others have taught me so much about proper pet breeding. Unless people are devoting considerable time, effort, and funds to doing it properly, I do wish we'd see more affordable neutering. We used to get twice-yearly specials at our local humane society for like $35, and here we pay over $100, sometimes over $150 to spay females.

Anyway, I appreciate the link and all the discussions! It did make me curious, and I asked a rescue (hrs away) if they would ever be willing to use spay & neuter contracts on puppies since there are health benefits to waiting until they're older, but of course shelters aren't particularly comfortable with that idea.

(Not just Achaiah & awesome forums -- my 13 yo daughter wants to be a vet and start a no-kill shelter for our area, despite us pretty much being one already :p, and she's also taught me a lot in the last several years!)
 
#29 ·
Service dogs are required to be neutered whether male or female, at least in the US.
I'm sorry, but whomever told you that was misinformed. While most organizations do spay or neuter any dogs they place, there is no law requiring service dogs to be altered.
 
#50 ·
is anyone going to tell me what the number of Doberman puppies were registered by AKC in the year 2015?
Seeing as how they no longer publicly release registration statistics, other than ranking in popularity by numbers registered, it would be rather difficult. However, Dobermans ranked 14th out of 184 breeds in 2015, so I'm going with A LOT.
 
#49 ·
Looking at the figures for males--it looks to me like the cutoff point is one year or older for neutering males. I see a big difference between neutering before one, and not that big a difference, or even inconsistence in the stats on the various health problems they looked at if a dog is neutered after one year. However, this study is not complete and doesn’t take into account lots of the problems both intact or neutered males can lead to for their owners/dogs.

I do believe there is a big difference between the responsibility most of us on this forum practice and the typical dog-in-the-backyard owner.
 
#53 ·
The last year they publicly released statistics (and it's been a while, now), Labs, the number one breed in popularity, were well over 1.5 million registered that year.

Don't forget, those statistics don't take into account how many puppies that are born that are NOT registered with the AKC. With puppy mill registries like the Cont. KC and APRI, there's no telling how may there really are.
 
#54 ·
My point was..if the 55000 figure is correct, a simple maths tells me @10 pups a litter, makes 5500 litters!!
And since not anyone can register a litter with AKC , does that mean these are from reputable breeders?
How many Doberman breeders are registered with AKC?
 
#64 ·
The other "90%" are back yard breeders and puppy mills. These breeders get dogs from other byb's and mills or in the case of some of the large puppy mills from your part of the world. Kimbertal, etc. have hopped on the "Euro" bandwagon for $. You've seen how many uneducated Americans post on here asking where they can get a "Euro" doberman I'm sure.
 
#65 ·
so if someone, imports two dogs from abroad and breed them, AKC does not ask any questions when registering their offspring giving them AKC registration..
And when they grow up and breed, their offspring is also registered because they have AKC registration...is this correct?
 
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