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Old 05-11-2009, 11:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy Hives & Rash under front armpits

Hi there,

I have a problem you guys may be able to help me with.

I have a 5 month old Fawn Doberman. She is fed Orijen Jarge Puppy, has all her shots and is on Revolution.

She seems to develop bundles of hives in patches all over her body (mainly on her neck and shoulders). Some are red some are not. I have noticed while brushing some of them fall/scab of and she loses her hair in that area. Additionally not sure if this is related she has some type of red rash with pimples around them on both armpits (front paws only).

I took her to the vet and he said its nothing to worry about, he said they will go away. I am now getting concerned cause the hives have been coming and going for two weeks now. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:17 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Sounds like a possibly allergy to me. Not sure what it could be to, as there are soo many environmental factors. Did they skin scrape? Are the bumps seeping at all? If there's any seeping, and it's red, there's a possibility it could be a staph infection. I'd talk with your vet again, or go to a new one if you don't trust the one you've seen.

ETA: Did they advise to give benedryl? Django got hives the other day and I just gave him one 25mg tablet with his meals (that makes 2/day..shouldn't exceed that) in about 2 days (maybe 3) they were gone.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:21 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I would try her on another type of dog food and see if you see a difference. It does sound like an allergic reaction. DO you bath her often? SOme dogs react to shampoos.

What are the ingredients in the food you feed now?

A lot of blue and fawn DObes seem to have skin and coat problems as well. Search around the forum there is lots of information here on skin and coat issues.

Good luck with your pup.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:33 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Bonita, The food your using is supposed to be a quality food however I think it's not very good for pups. It has a very high protein level (42%) much to high for a Dobermann. Your pup can be going through a progression that many pups experience in regards to skin and coat complications, it's possible a minor staph is present, her immune system maybe weak so mites maybe more prominate then usual. I would discuss this further with your vet, and look into building your pups immune system up. I would eliminate Orijen and find a good hollistic kibble (26% protein or less) and try a salmon or lamb first ingrediate diet. This may help her skin and coat condition, I use plain all natural yogurt cultures for introducing good bacteria into puppies systems. A fawn can have a difficult time growing through puppyhood with skin and coat problems but a better diet and introducing a strong suppliment for her immune system, along with a shampoo and conditioner can do wonders for her. Speak with your vet about trying Malalseb for a shampoo, it's worked well for me. Von.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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They did not do a skin scrape. Only 1 of the bumps did seep. I tried to squeeze a few and only one had a pimple like pus in it that came out. The rest were dry.

Not advised to give Benedryl. I think I will try and see if it helps.

We did try another 6 star dry food, mixing it with her original Orijen. I don’t think its food related Orijen is a 6 star dry dog food, this is the first few ingredients in the food;
Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat, sweet potato, whole eggs, turkey, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, salmon, natural chicken. It costs an arm and a leg but she is worth it!

We bath her maybe once a month. **She does like to play and retrieve sticks from the rouge river and lake Ontario. Perhaps she is having a bad reaction to a pollutant in the lake Ontario?

I will try to keep her away from the lake and use the benedryl. I will consult with the food store for a more suitable food lower in protein however she has been eating this food since she was a small pup, not sure if this makes a difference. I will also start to introduce all natural yogurt. If this does not improve the situation I may try a different vet. Thanks for the suggestions.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:05 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Orijen----42% PROTEIN is to high, I know it's quality but for a pup it's not good. Return to it when she's 20 months old. Von.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by von Cosack Dobermann View Post
Orijen----42% PROTEIN is to high, I know it's quality but for a pup it's not good. Return to it when she's 20 months old. Von.


Hi Von,

I will switch to Acana Grasslands. I spoke to the pet food store and they have it in stock. Bonita will switch to this tonight!

Dog Food Reviews - Acana Grasslands - Powered by ReviewPost

Thanks!
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I had a problem with hives with luna...see my thread on DT "luna's coat is going down hill" which turned out to be an allergy and a bit of stress. I posted pics. Changed her to a no grain, but low protein food called Taste of the Wild, white fish and sweet potato with amazing results...no more hives or hair loss, just a glossy, beautiful coat! I also tried Evo, but it was too high protein.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Switch over the course of a week, mix 70% of Orijen to 30% new the next few meals get to 50/50 and so on. Take 6 or 7 days to change over. Von.
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Staph infections can look similiar to hives. I'd take her to the vet as antibiotics might be needed to clear it up. You might also try colostrum tablets from the health food store. Staph is very common in young Dobes.
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Just a couple of notes:
1. Benadryl, an antihistamine, will help keep new hives from forming, but will not get rid of ones already present. It does reduce itching in a lot of dogs, as well as making some of them sleepy. All of that should reduce sctratching, but you may not see any actual reduction in the number of hives which are already present except over time.
2. Often the scratching associated with hives is what is doing the damage, leading to red irritated skin and possible bacterial infections. Weeping bumps, scabs and hair loss may mean an infection is present.
3. Mange is another possibility--red bumps and pustules in the armpits is a possible symptom of Sarcoptic Mange.
4. There are quite a few good foods on the market--some with the higher protein more appropriate to the older dog, some with less--generally recommended for doberman puppies. It is important to feed quality food, but individual dogs can develop allergies or not do well on particular proteins or dog foods while others thrive. Feed the dog food your dog does well on, keeping in mind proper nutrition for his age and activity level--if you're lucky, he may thrive on one of the cheaper foods! LOL
5. Fawn dobermans can be difficult to keep in good coat without supplements and a regime of coat care. In general, if a puppy is getting a good food, he should not need supplements, but look up the skin care procedures you can find on the web for blue and fawn dobes. I know there are a few that have been recommended here that you might find with a search--I don't have the sites right off hand.

And now, a small hint--we LOVE pictures of dobermans here!! LOL Good luck!
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juljules View Post
I had a problem with hives with luna...see my thread on DT "luna's coat is going down hill" which turned out to be an allergy and a bit of stress. I posted pics. Changed her to a no grain, but low protein food called Taste of the Wild, white fish and sweet potato with amazing results...no more hives or hair loss, just a glossy, beautiful coat! I also tried Evo, but it was too high protein.
Hey, I just had a look at your picks. I am almost 100% sure Bonita has the same condition. Her skin is starting to look like Luna's, its not quite as bad as that yet but if I am not able to figure this out I fear it will be. I am switching to a lower Protein food ASAP. I hope 33% protein from Lamb as opposed to 42% from chicken will solve this problem. I will blend the two foods over a few days so I wont upset her belly.

Thanks for your tips guys!
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
Just a couple of notes:
1. Benadryl, an antihistamine, will help keep new hives from forming, but will not get rid of ones already present. It does reduce itching in a lot of dogs, as well as making some of them sleepy. All of that should reduce sctratching, but you may not see any actual reduction in the number of hives which are already present except over time.
2. Often the scratching associated with hives is what is doing the damage, leading to red irritated skin and possible bacterial infections. Weeping bumps, scabs and hair loss may mean an infection is present.
3. Mange is another possibility--red bumps and pustules in the armpits is a possible symptom of Sarcoptic Mange.
4. There are quite a few good foods on the market--some with the higher protein more appropriate to the older dog, some with less--generally recommended for doberman puppies. It is important to feed quality food, but individual dogs can develop allergies or not do well on particular proteins or dog foods while others thrive. Feed the dog food your dog does well on, keeping in mind proper nutrition for his age and activity level--if you're lucky, he may thrive on one of the cheaper foods! LOL
5. Fawn dobermans can be difficult to keep in good coat without supplements and a regime of coat care. In general, if a puppy is getting a good food, he should not need supplements, but look up the skin care procedures you can find on the web for blue and fawn dobes. I know there are a few that have been recommended here that you might find with a search--I don't have the sites right off hand.

And now, a small hint--we LOVE pictures of dobermans here!! LOL Good luck!



Thanks for the tips! I don't think it can me Sarcoptic Mange since she is on her second does or Revolution. This is suppose to stop/kill this Sarcoptic Mange problem. If I don't see an improvement after 1 week on this new food I will make a move to another vet to see what they suggest/recommend.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Allergies and staff go together a lot too.
When my boy had allergies I switched to California Natural Lamb Meal and Rice. It is an allergy formula, made by Natura, with very few ingredients plus protein level of 21%. If you are going to switch foods anyway I would go this route. From this food, after her hives are gone you can begin to test other meat proteins to see which will bring a return of the hives. This is not a proffessional way to test as that is much, much more involved but it worked in my case. I found that Parker is sensitive to chicken and breaks out everytime he eats it for a day or two.
You do not want to give benedryl till you find out what she is allergic too. You might be masking the symptoms and you need them right now.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:22 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I agree that allergies and staph can go together. My fawn was prone to staph infections (antibiotics are needed to treat this, it will not just go away) and he had seasonal allergies as well. My girl, Cali, is having a heck of a time with hives this year due to contact allergies. She's taking Benadryl on a regular basis to keep the itching down and thus the hives at bay.

I would definitely switch to a lower protein kibble for your puppy. It seems that most often dogs don't truly have food allergies, though. Try not to make too many changes all at once, or you'll have no clue what is helping.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:23 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Allergies and staff go together a lot too.
When my boy had allergies I switched to California Natural Lamb Meal and Rice. It is an allergy formula, made by Natura, with very few ingredients plus protein level of 21%. If you are going to switch foods anyway I would go this route. From this food, after her hives are gone you can begin to test other meat proteins to see which will bring a return of the hives. This is not a proffessional way to test as that is much, much more involved but it worked in my case. I found that Parker is sensitive to chicken and breaks out everytime he eats it for a day or two.
You do not want to give benedryl till you find out what she is allergic too. You might be masking the symptoms and you need them right now.


Good tip on the benedryl. I will hold off till I do figure out what the true culprit is!
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Going from 42% to 33% is a minimal difference as I stated before 26% and less is needed. Also to gauge results with food you need to fed at least 30 to 40 days to see any results.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KristenC View Post
I agree that allergies and staph can go together. My fawn was prone to staph infections (antibiotics are needed to treat this, it will not just go away) and he had seasonal allergies as well. My girl, Cali, is having a heck of a time with hives this year due to contact allergies. She's taking Benadryl on a regular basis to keep the itching down and thus the hives at bay.

I would definitely switch to a lower protein kibble for your puppy. It seems that most often dogs don't truly have food allergies, though. Try not to make too many changes all at once, or you'll have no clue what is helping.
I had a dog with chronic staph infections - they were major - he was black. We had him on antibiotics (Keflex - cephalexin) for 12 months (10 days on, 5 days off) and they never stopped - they would always come back toward the end of the 5 day rest period. Initially, he had been on the AB for longer but this was the long term dosage for him.

Eventually I switched to Salmon Oil capsules and a Vitamin A capsule daily, and after a week the staph started going away. He remained on that for the rest of his life and died of DCM at 10.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
I had a dog with chronic staph infections - they were major - he was black. We had him on antibiotics (Keflex - cephalexin) for 12 months (10 days on, 5 days off) and they never stopped - they would always come back toward the end of the 5 day rest period. Initially, he had been on the AB for longer but this was the long term dosage for him.

Eventually I switched to Salmon Oil capsules and a Vitamin A capsule daily, and after a week the staph started going away. He remained on that for the rest of his life and died of DCM at 10.
Mer's staph went away eventually... we believed more because his immune system finally got stronger. I'm glad your boy did so well on the oil and vit A. I lost my boy to DCM, too, at 5.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I give my boy fish oil 2/3000 mgs a day, in two doses. Also vit c 500 mg twice a day and vit e 200 mg once a day.
You want to watch out about giving vit a as it is not water soluable and excess will build up in the system with potential liver/nerve damage if given for extended periods of time.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Hey, I just had a look at your picks. I am almost 100% sure Bonita has the same condition. Her skin is starting to look like Luna's, its not quite as bad as that yet but if I am not able to figure this out I fear it will be. I am switching to a lower Protein food ASAP. I hope 33% protein from Lamb as opposed to 42% from chicken will solve this problem. I will blend the two foods over a few days so I wont upset her belly.

Thanks for your tips guys!
Ruling out staph or mange is still a good idea for your pup as many have suggested. As for her diet, I was told that chicken, lamb or beef is not good with dogs with allergies. White fish is the best or salmon... and believe me, i have tried so many different foods with Luna...finally hit the jackpot. Whichever food you choose, try a fish and sweet potato formula with lower protein and NO GRAINS. Same goes for her treats. If it is a food allergy, it will take about two weeks to see an improvement in her coat. I also supplement with fish oil every day.

Best of Luck!!
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I have a similar problems with my 9.5 month old boy, Higgins. He is scratching on one side, just the left side all the time. The vet did a skin scrape and nothing. It is not red, no staff, no mange, no fleas/ticks/mites, not even red......just slight hair loss on that one side. He is eating Purina Pro Plan Shredded Chicken and everything is good (26% protein). I have not given him Benadryl yet but I think I am going to go get it tomorrow. The vet gave me a 2 week supply of Cephalexin but that didn't do anything. The vet advised that with a good quality kibble, he should not need any extra supplements or fish oil. I live in Dallas, TX and allergies are horrible during this time of year. I am hoping it is just seasonal allergies so hopefully the Benadryl stops the itching thus stopping the thin hair.

Do you recommend a specific type of Benadryl? I am assuming non-drowsy and 25mg right? I have the Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride. Just one a day?
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rj1204 View Post
I have a similar problems with my 9.5 month old boy, Higgins. He is scratching on one side, just the left side all the time. The vet did a skin scrape and nothing. It is not red, no staff, no mange, no fleas/ticks/mites, not even red......just slight hair loss on that one side. He is eating Purina Pro Plan Shredded Chicken and everything is good (26% protein). I have not given him Benadryl yet but I think I am going to go get it tomorrow. The vet gave me a 2 week supply of Cephalexin but that didn't do anything. The vet advised that with a good quality kibble, he should not need any extra supplements or fish oil. I live in Dallas, TX and allergies are horrible during this time of year. I am hoping it is just seasonal allergies so hopefully the Benadryl stops the itching thus stopping the thin hair.

Do you recommend a specific type of Benadryl? I am assuming non-drowsy and 25mg right? I have the Just one a day?
The dosage is 1 mg per pound twice daily. Just the Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride, no cold meds or anything else added. Usually seasonal allergies cause a dog to lick and chew their feet constantly.
You might try giving him some fish oil to see if this helps his itchiness. I would find a food that starts with chicken meal not just chicken, which is inclusive of water. You are feeding him mainly rice and wheat then some poulty by product meal(chicken beaks, feet, etc.) Also you might try feeding him a salmon food to see if that helps.
I would change food, then give fish oil with new food, then go to a salmon based food plus fish oil, vit e in that order. If the first doesn't work move on to the next step. Fish oil 1/2/3000 mgs a day vit e 200 mgs a day. If you give more than 1000 mgs fish oil then give in more than one setting. Give each change at least a month to see any difference.
I would do all this before giving the benedryl. If the changes don't work then you might give the benedryl.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:09 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Rider has similar red bumps under his arms and hind legs (which look like hives) and he was diagnosed with Demodex mange.
he is currently on Ivermectin. Revolution won't touch that, and advantage Multi (which is supposed to be for demodex AND sarcoptic mange) didn't help either.

Good luck!
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
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-UPDATE-

Hey Guys,

I switched to California Natural Lamb Meal & Rice Dry Puppy Food. 26% Protein and its a Allergy formula, very simple in its composition.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_f...ct=436&cat=all

Fact: A dog food with NO grain is naturally High in protein. This food is the were I will start and go from there, she seems to like it. Last night the Hives were all over her & much bigger in size. Yes I did give her half a 12.5MG benedtyl last night and this morning almost all the hives are gone, only a few tiny ones remain. The irritation in her front arm pits is still there but getting better.

I will also make sure she does get the plain yogurt daily from now on. Additionally we will stay away from Lake Ontario and the Rouge River for the next month then slowly introduce 1 thing at a time to locate the allergen.

If I dont see any further improvement I may need to consult with a new Vet.

Thanks for all your help/advise!
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