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Old 12-19-2008, 07:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
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allergies !!

Tyson ,1 yr old has bad allergies .I did food allergy test Results: allergic to lactose,beef and lamb. He's been eating raw since he was 8 weeks old. His raw diet consisted mostly of chicken ,deer fish oils ,probiotics fruits and veggies. He has been on and off prednisone since the age of 5 months.
Vet suggested i take him off raw and feed vet hypoallergenic duck and potato mix for 2 months .His coat got very thin and he lost weight .You could count every rib,and could see the formation of his spine,through his coat.
As for his allergies they seemed to get better ,but he was still on small dose of prednisone.
Put him back on raw chicken and veggie glop for 3 weeks.Allergies got bad again even though he is not supposed to be allergic to chicken.
Now i give him raw duck and potato's . Still itching unless i give him high dose of prednisone.I feed him about 4 lbs a day of food .He's still skinny but his coat is a little better. I am fed up of seeing him in pain .I am afraid all that prednisone will compromise his health for the rest of his life.
Could this be a thyroid problem ? Any feedback or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old 12-19-2008, 08:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Are you feeding organic? The antibiotics and growth hormones in non-organic may be the problem. What are the allergy symptoms that are being treated with prednisone? i'm sure you know that prednisone is a "symptom suppressor" so, many times, when you first take the animal off of pred. the symptoms come roaring back. Prednisone is never a long-term solution. More detail about your dog, age, color, symptoms, etc. would help. Sorry you are having so much trouble.
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Old 12-19-2008, 10:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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From the pictures you posted, he doesn't look skinny at all to me now

Has your vet done any other tests other than the test for food allergies?
Environmental allergies are much more common in dogs, was he tested for those?
Has the vet done a skin scraping to look for mange/infection/etc?
Has he been on any other medications besides the pred?

If the above things haven't been done, I would suggest seeking a second opinion. You could try a different vet, but if it were me, I'd go straight to a dermatologist. Allergies can be a VERY expensive, life-long problem. Best to go straight to the expert and get good advice right off the bat.

I'd also get in touch with your breeder (if you haven't already) and see what advice they may have. Maybe they could recommend a good specialist... or if they have dealt with this before, they may be able to suggest supplements/etc.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:10 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triciakoontz View Post
Are you feeding organic? The antibiotics and growth hormones in non-organic may be the problem. What are the allergy symptoms that are being treated with prednisone? i'm sure you know that prednisone is a "symptom suppressor" so, many times, when you first take the animal off of pred. the symptoms come roaring back. Prednisone is never a long-term solution. More detail about your dog, age, color, symptoms, etc. would help. Sorry you are having so much trouble.
I don't think he is getting organic. I get my raw from my breeder,with whom i am close with. She makes a hamburger like pattie with raw meat ,fruits, veggies,oils and vitamins. She has changed the proteins ,removed everything else but carrots and lettuce. We have tried to make these patties as simple as possible to pin point exactly what he is allergic to.

This might be a stupid question, by antibiotic do you mean probiotic or is there antibiotics and growth hormonesin raw meat.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:20 AM   #5 (permalink)
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From the pictures you posted, he doesn't look skinny at all to me now

Has your vet done any other tests other than the test for food allergies?
Environmental allergies are much more common in dogs, was he tested for those?
Has the vet done a skin scraping to look for mange/infection/etc?
Has he been on any other medications besides the pred?

If the above things haven't been done, I would suggest seeking a second opinion. You could try a different vet, but if it were me, I'd go straight to a dermatologist. Allergies can be a VERY expensive, life-long problem. Best to go straight to the expert and get good advice right off the bat.

I'd also get in touch with your breeder (if you haven't already) and see what advice they may have. Maybe they could recommend a good specialist... or if they have dealt with this before, they may be able to suggest supplements/etc.
I have done a scraping:result was clear. MY food allergy tests were done by my breeders vet ,which she opted to pay for.
Everybody i know ,including breeder, tell me enviromental allergy tests are never conclusive ,therefore, a waste of money. I would have to remove prednisone for a month before doing the test,and i can't bare to watch my dog itch and scratch until blood appears,for a month.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I would hesitate to keep the dog on Pred for a really long time myself. My boy has environmental allergies and we kept him comfortable last year with benadryl, and this year switched to daily doses of claritin nondrowsy to help with the itching.

Are you sure the dog does not have any contact allergies on top of the food...cleaning products, laundry soap (nonperfume and no dye only), certain grasses or bushes in your yard.

We are pretty sure my Rex is allergic to pine straw, the mild/mildew associated with the pine straw, and maybe the Bermuda grass also. He's more comfy when things are dormant in winter.

I would try to rinse the dog with a dilute listerine or apple cider vinegar rinse after he's been out running to strip anything off his coat, make sure anything he lays on in the house is not scented, etc. My vet said a light rinse with the hose would help get allergens off the coat when the pollen count is high in spring for example. I think it would be unusual for a 1 yr old dog to have thyroid issues...but it is not impossible. You could do a full panel just to rule that out.

** Agree that a trip to a dermatologist is in order most likely. That is what I would do at this point.
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Old 12-20-2008, 11:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Actually, most veterinarians, including dermatologists, will tell you the exact opposite - that testing for food allergies using intradermal or serum allergy tests are pretty much not accepted in todays veterinary medicine (though there is at least one poster on this board, who to my knowledge does not have a medical degree, that disagrees with me) - and using these tests are WIDELY accepted by both general practitioners as well as board certified veterinary dermatologists to diagnose environmental allergies.

There are a few labs that are known for their reliable results - I choose to use HESKA, personally - I have had very good results with them and they are reliable, I've had good feedback from boarded derms, and they have good customer service and derms on hand via the company for me to go over cases with (including my own dog).

FOod allergies are grossly overdiagnosed by the general pet owning public, and they rarely have gross SEVERE dermatologic signs like you mention here - *most* truly food allergic dogs do not come across as severely pruritic (itchy) all over - they tend to have a few spots they are itchy (including around the anus, and sometimes chronic ear issues), but by far the most common allergies are atopy - environmental ones. Many food allergy dogs can have GI signs.

Typically I start all dogs off, for me, with a skin scrape in multiple places - I may even treat them with revolution (since I can always be wrong with a scrape and selamectin really didn't hurt most animals and can only help as well as ensuring adequate flea control for a possible flea allergy!), and skin cytology - if I see bacteria, I will give antibiotics, if I see yeast I will treat topically with antifungals or potentially orally if bad. I will check ears to see if I need to address otitis. Check between food pads. Check distribution of the itching. Discuss diet, seasonality. Oftentimes because it is easier some people will opt for a full food trial before working up an atopic animal because it's always easier to rule that out then go to it later. Once I have ruled out a food allergy, there are a multitude of ways to deal with an environmental allergy.

REALLY, I do stress allergy testing - even if you don't go for allergy shots, it's nice to know what the animal is allergic to because environmental control can be key. Some things can be done to modify the house/environment (I got AC to help my dog, I swear!) including HEPA filters, pulling up carpets, getting rid of featherbeds, pillows, etc, changing the dogs beds or where the dog sleeps, altering where you walk the dog, etc.
Allergy injections do become an option - typically in my experiences 50-75% of animals will experience 50-75% resolution of their symptoms. You never cure an animal of allergies, you simply manage them - so you can hope to decrease the severity or decrease the number of outbreaks with the injections, and manage them medically with courses of antibiotics and topical shampoos, antihistamines, and potential steroids if needed intermittently

Another option is Atopica (cyclosporine) - expensive, with less side effects than steroids, but works very well. It modifies the bodies response to the allergens - it's what we use in human transplant patients to prevent rejection.


Take this from me - I'm not just the president, I'm also a client I mean, I'm not just a vet, but I'm the owner of one very itchy allergy dog. My own dobe has severe environmental allergies. Like I said - true allergies are not eliminated, they are managed - you will likely always have outbreaks, we just try to minimize them and make them easier to deal with. I'd really urge you get your puppy off prednisone and to a board certified dermatologist for some real answers as to what is going on - clearly you're not actually getting any answers right now on this path.
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Old 12-20-2008, 03:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Have you or someone you know followed this program.Was it successful?
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Old 12-20-2008, 04:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I thought you said skin scrapings were negative - if it was a yeast infection that bad, you surely would have seen it on skin scrapings.

Please take a closer look at doberkim's post - she is both a veterinarian and the owner of a doberman with allergies.

If your dog is truly suffering from allergies, you should find suitable ways to manage them OTHER than steroids that will eventually do much more harm than good to his body.

If you think he may be suffering from yeast, find a qualified veterinarian (such as a dermatologist) to re-evaluate his diagnosis and treat him properly.

As for the great dane lady, I'd just say be careful of websites that are trying to sell you multiple products and lay people trying to diagnose medical conditions.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Actually, most veterinarians, including dermatologists, will tell you the exact opposite - that testing for food allergies using intradermal or serum allergy tests are pretty much not accepted in todays veterinary medicine (though there is at least one poster on this board, who to my knowledge does not have a medical degree, that disagrees with me) - and using these tests are WIDELY accepted by both general practitioners as well as board certified veterinary dermatologists to diagnose environmental allergies.

There are a few labs that are known for their reliable results - I choose to use HESKA, personally - I have had very good results with them and they are reliable, I've had good feedback from boarded derms, and they have good customer service and derms on hand via the company for me to go over cases with (including my own dog).

FOod allergies are grossly overdiagnosed by the general pet owning public, and they rarely have gross SEVERE dermatologic signs like you mention here - *most* truly food allergic dogs do not come across as severely pruritic (itchy) all over - they tend to have a few spots they are itchy (including around the anus, and sometimes chronic ear issues), but by far the most common allergies are atopy - environmental ones. Many food allergy dogs can have GI signs.

Typically I start all dogs off, for me, with a skin scrape in multiple places - I may even treat them with revolution (since I can always be wrong with a scrape and selamectin really didn't hurt most animals and can only help as well as ensuring adequate flea control for a possible flea allergy!), and skin cytology - if I see bacteria, I will give antibiotics, if I see yeast I will treat topically with antifungals or potentially orally if bad. I will check ears to see if I need to address otitis. Check between food pads. Check distribution of the itching. Discuss diet, seasonality. Oftentimes because it is easier some people will opt for a full food trial before working up an atopic animal because it's always easier to rule that out then go to it later. Once I have ruled out a food allergy, there are a multitude of ways to deal with an environmental allergy.

REALLY, I do stress allergy testing - even if you don't go for allergy shots, it's nice to know what the animal is allergic to because environmental control can be key. Some things can be done to modify the house/environment (I got AC to help my dog, I swear!) including HEPA filters, pulling up carpets, getting rid of featherbeds, pillows, etc, changing the dogs beds or where the dog sleeps, altering where you walk the dog, etc.
Allergy injections do become an option - typically in my experiences 50-75% of animals will experience 50-75% resolution of their symptoms. You never cure an animal of allergies, you simply manage them - so you can hope to decrease the severity or decrease the number of outbreaks with the injections, and manage them medically with courses of antibiotics and topical shampoos, antihistamines, and potential steroids if needed intermittently

Another option is Atopica (cyclosporine) - expensive, with less side effects than steroids, but works very well. It modifies the bodies response to the allergens - it's what we use in human transplant patients to prevent rejection.


Take this from me - I'm not just the president, I'm also a client I mean, I'm not just a vet, but I'm the owner of one very itchy allergy dog. My own dobe has severe environmental allergies. Like I said - true allergies are not eliminated, they are managed - you will likely always have outbreaks, we just try to minimize them and make them easier to deal with. I'd really urge you get your puppy off prednisone and to a board certified dermatologist for some real answers as to what is going on - clearly you're not actually getting any answers right now on this path.
Thank you doberkim for your extensive reply. The scrapings were done on his feet and no yeast was found. I live in Canada and it is very cold and lots of snow.His allergies are as bad now as in summer. That's why i thought it was food allergies.
I think you feed raw as well . The raw i am feeding him now contains no vitamins,probiotics or oils .Could this have affected his immune system.I really don't want to feed him kibbles ,but if that's what it takes i will do it .
I can't feed him beef, lamb, dairy, chicken. Could these tests be wrong . He had been off prednisone only 8 days when i took tests. I know this can affect food allergy tests . The vet told me it didn't matter , it only matters for environmental allergies. Do you know if an holistic vet could eliminate allergies with natural products and organic foods?
I will do a thyroid test after the holidays ,if that is negative , i will do environmental tests.
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I have no advice to offer but just wanted to express by good wishes that you get it resolved and get your boy comfy.
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Allergies to items in the house (dust mites, mold, etc) are not necessarily affected by seasons - Rah is allergic to items only in the house - his *environmental allergies* are NOT seasonal in the least. The only thing that affects him is how moist it is outside - during rainy periods, because of his high reactivity to molds he is always more pruritic. His allergens are IN MY HOUSE - because he is primarily a house dog - and not an outdoor dog - no matter what he eats, and no matter what season it is, he is constantly and consistently exposed to these allergens. They do get a tad worse in the winter purely because my house is closed up more than during the summer, however my house also tends to be drier in the winter than the summer when the high humidity made the mold killer - which is why I got central air.

I really REALLY REALLY would encourage you to stop whatever paths you look at and just go see a dermatologist. Looking for any and all answers from 5 different places is going to give you 10 different answers, none of which will probably help. You need a thorough work up and you need to commit to following through with someone who knows what they are doing - nothing is more frustrating for a vet than to have someone who isn't going to do follow ups and follow through say their treatment plan isn't working when they never gave it a shot. If your dog didn't have yeast per your vet, then what the greatdanelady says has nothing to do with your dog. I'm not sure where in my post you got that he needs to eat kibble (my dog doesn't - he is raw fed).

My point is - I seriously doubt your dog has ANY food allergy whatsoever. I personally think (and I am not your veterinarian, I have not examined your animal) that once your dogs environmental allergies are addressed, diagnosed and treated/managed - your dog will be able to eat whatever he wants. You have switched your dogs food MULTIPLE times and NONE of the foods have helped - it is highly unlikely that your dog has a food allergy. The testing for food allergies is not recommended in this manner because it is as good as guessing and often comes up with allergies the dog DOES NOT HAVE.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by muski-joe View Post
Have you or someone you know followed this program.Was it successful?
It is my understanding, and from talking to the GDL herself, that what is expelled, when it is systemic, are the toxins from the yeast that dies off --so you can't tell from a skin scraping about internal yeast issues, all you get are the chemicals that work their way to the surface that cause intense burning and itching.

Now that said, you can have a localized surface fungal infection along with a secondary bacterial infection due to irratation, that surface fungus will show up on a skin scraping as well, but the meds to treat it are so hard on the liver that it's best to treat with some of the same components in the yeast kit, like you do for demodectic mange.

You can use OxEdrops diluted and Blackleaf topically on the spots to kill the yeast and then boost immune function with probiotics, colostrum, DMG and use Nzymes to detoxy the body.

Not saying this is what is going on with your dog, but it is worth checking into more/educating yourself on.
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Sundobe

Nothing is 'natural' about drop ears. All pure breeds are designed by man with a purpose, form, function and look that is is their heritage, their history - important parts of what made the breed and must be respected and preserved.

If we want the right to have that CHOICE, let's stand up and fight for ALL choice! Let's NOT remain neutral or silent about losing the right to choose just because YOUR choice may not be the one threatened!

In doG, we trust.
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