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Old 11-28-2008, 10:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question z factor

Wondering why Z factor dogs are such a big deal. I currently own a Z factor Male and have done a fair bit of research after purchasing him...I was not aware of this Z factor list through DPCC when I purchased him.
My understanding with the Albino's is the health issues of the light sensitvity, aggression, etc. only affect them directly. Why is it dogs with an Albino 7 generations back end up on the Z list. It was my understanding in order to end up with an Albino you have to breed 2 Albino's or F1 & F1.
Why is there not a list for the dogs that have cardio, VWD, thyroid, etc. in their lines. These diseases are major killers and can take your dog at any age after you have spent the time, money and fallen in love...and there are breeders of active showlines that are doing this.

I look forward to your answers...
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Normally pigmented z factored dogs actually present a greater hazard to the breeding population than albinos for the simple reason you can't tell whether they carry the gene for the albino mutation by looking at them. There's no reason to perpetuate birth defects like albinism.

As you said, this breed has more than enough health problems already. There's certainly no reason to bring new problems in, which is what happens when z factored dogs are used for breeding.
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The OFA keeps a list of good hips and elbows - Good Breeders know the vWD status
I'm sure once there is a marker for DCM and the rest - Reputable breeders will use that info to better the breed - for now they holter.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I think the Z list is just so you won't breed the dog. If the Z factored dog is breed to another Z factor, you could have some problems.
My Q is Z factored. I did not research at all before buying a Dobie (I know better now). It was after I got Quentin and went to the AKC web site to register him that I realized what was up. I then read alot about it. He is an awesome dog, beautiful, sweet natured, smart, oversized which is causing some joint pain. Still I was worried at first about all the health hazards. I could be wrong, but isn't he prone to more stuff by being Z factored? Stuff like Cancer (I do know it is common is lots of Dobes not Z factored also). Anyway, he has been fixed and I sent his breeder an email with all the information I had on Z factored Dobies. I advised her to tell all the people she had sold other puppies to, about the Z factor, and not to breed Q's Mother anymore (she is the one with many white relatives). I check her web site often and she has given Q's Mom to her sister to keep as a Pet. I'm assuming that since she had the pedigree of both dogs posted right on her web site, she did not even know about the Z factor issue (bad, bad).
Anyway, I LOVE my boy and would be just crushed if something happened to him. But, I have learned a lesson from DT, and my next Dobie (if not another rescue), will come from a reputable breeder, so that I don't promote bad breeding practices.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I have a z factored girl.
Like Murreydobe said, why perpetuate even more deffects in a breed with so many.
This is one that we can for sure get rid of with selective breeding.
The z-list is out there so that responsible breeders can also track the potential dogs they may use in their breeding program and they can steer clear of the z factor.

Some say that z-factor dogs have temperment issues(true in my dog and quite a few of the relatives to it).
Sopme say they have more health issues...this could be true, but it could also be all of the other dogs that are being used in conjunction with the z factor, lets face it people who breed to a z factored dog probably arent the most responsible ethical of all breeders.

I love my dog to death but NO WAY would I ever want to produce anything remotely like her.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I think that some Z factored dogs have more issues simply b/c of poor breeding practices, those who breed Z factored dogs do so either b/c they don't care about the factor or don't know enough and shouldn't be breeding in the first place. Thea2003 girl is a good example, Z factored, and now with hip dysplasia.
no one says they won't be loving dogs, but if that factor can be removed from the breed we need to try to do so.
sure there are a lot of health issues, heck, we have a "designer" dog, bringing all the problems of the breeds used to create our wonderful dobes.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I also have a "Z" factored girl purchased from Amaris Dobermans in Missouri. As Murreydobe stated, why perpetuate even more deffects in a breed with so many? My girl has been spayed, so there is no hope of passing on the gene and she is one of those dogs -- as stated -- that shows no real signs of "Z" from looking at her.

I have seen no evidence of any temperment issues, and what things I do call "odd" in her personality are (IMHO) a direct result of harsh puppy obedience training done so she was "trained" when we took delivery of her.

I have also not seen an increase in health issues, but I do know I will be facing orthopedic issues with her. I chalk that up to what I now see as totally poor breeding to make a buck. As others have stated, I love my dog to death but NO WAY would I ever recommend Amaris nor would I want them to produce anything remotely like her. If I could run them out of business on a rail car, I would.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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This can be a touchy subject for some as some owners of Z dogs feel shunned from ahem "more responsible" breeders.I agree that SOME "Z "dogs die of health issues due to ties with unethical breeding, A breeder might brag no Z but not give a hoot on Cardio testing or only testing their producers until they retire from the mating grounds, does that make them better? hell no. I do think that there should be firmer regulations. In north America, more dobes die of heart issues than in europe...i wonder why?? not because they screen and us over here do not.A dog must receive a ScHI in europe before breeding as to prove it is true to the doberman working ability which Louis Dobermann invented the breed for,plus the additional health checks similar to here are done. In a nut shell IMO something must be done right quick on registered breeders that put health at the bottom of the barrell. Z-list is easily downloaded on your screen, the 'silent killer' is not listed.It seems alot of euro dogs are coming in to 'wash out' the cardio issues here in north america. Point being yes Z-list is important, but can be easily fixed, we need to focus on what is claiming dogs as early as 3.
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gracieface View Post
I think that some Z factored dogs have more issues simply b/c of poor breeding practices, those who breed Z factored dogs do so either b/c they don't care about the factor or don't know enough and shouldn't be breeding in the first place. Thea2003 girl is a good example, Z factored, and now with hip dysplasia.
no one says they won't be loving dogs, but if that factor can be removed from the breed we need to try to do so.
sure there are a lot of health issues, heck, we have a "designer" dog, bringing all the problems of the breeds used to create our wonderful dobes.
Thea2003 is not a good example of a Z factored dog. She is a dog that comes from strong working lines....Hip dysplasia is not always due to bad breeding....My memory tells me that dog was bred at 9 mths. of age with her previous owner and spent her first portion of her life undernourished and in a barn....Enviroment and nutrition can also contribute to hip dysplasia.
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuerhund View Post
This can be a touchy subject for some as some owners of Z dogs feel shunned from ahem "more responsible" breeders.I agree that SOME "Z "dogs die of health issues due to ties with unethical breeding, A breeder might brag no Z but not give a hoot on Cardio testing or only testing their producers until they retire from the mating grounds, does that make them better? hell no. I do think that there should be firmer regulations. In north America, more dobes die of heart issues than in europe...i wonder why?? not because they screen and us over here do not.A dog must receive a ScHI in europe before breeding as to prove it is true to the doberman working ability which Louis Dobermann invented the breed for,plus the additional health checks similar to here are done. In a nut shell IMO something must be done right quick on registered breeders that put health at the bottom of the barrell. Z-list is easily downloaded on your screen, the 'silent killer' is not listed.It seems alot of euro dogs are coming in to 'wash out' the cardio issues here in north america. Point being yes Z-list is important, but can be easily fixed, we need to focus on what is claiming dogs as early as 3.
I couldn't have said it better.....Well put. You hit it...
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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IMO a Z factored dog is a liability with a huge question mark on temperament and health. It's my understanding that the health and aggression issues are not selective to just an albino dog but to it's decendents regardless of colour. All dobes, z factored or not, are suseptable to DCM, thyroid, and VwD. Reputable breeders do test their breeding dogs for those health issues and don't breed if they feel the breeding won't improve the breed. Having the Z list just eliminates having to do another test - one to see if they carry the required gene to create an albino.

I also own a z factored male and I can tell you that in the wrong or inexperienced hands, he would be a nightmare.
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvindobes View Post
Thea2003 is not a good example of a Z factored dog. She is a dog that comes from strong working lines....Hip dysplasia is not always due to bad breeding....My memory tells me that dog was bred at 9 mths. of age with her previous owner and spent her first portion of her life undernourished and in a barn....Enviroment and nutrition can also contribute to hip dysplasia.
Pardon me? Spent the first portion of her life in a barn? Bred at 9mos??
Where are you getting your facts????

Also, yes she IS from strong working lines, but NOT from solid temperments, my dog is a chicken, she is a fearful dog, not from lack of socialization.
And, really, the last "Stong working" dog was Bristol Zamolxis, and that is her Grandfather, neither of her parents were worked, her maternal grandmother had a HIDEOUS temperment from what i am told.
Her father was handler agressive.

Although i agree, hip dysplasia can be environmental, how am i to know? I dont have any tests on parents to say it wasnt from them, my dog isnt LAME most people dont see anything wrong with her.

I didnt mention the HD in this thread cuz i didnt want to blame in on the z factor, i prefer to blame it on poor breeding practices and possible some environmental factors, but please tell me more of the barn she lived in i would love to know cuz i was at her old home many times.

If you have personal gripe with her previous owner please feel free to email me or her.

My dog IS a good example of WHY NOT to breed a z factored dog.
Diesel, another dog with the same sire is a good reason not to breed a z factored dog.

As i was discussing earlier with someone, there is no place for agression in this breed when they are going normally as family pets, not working dogs.

The fact the Gin was bought and knowingly was bred although he was handler agressive is awful and sets a whole lotta families up for heatache when they have to euthanize thier dog

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Old 12-05-2008, 07:38 AM   #13 (permalink)
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yes, luvindobes, I'd like to know where you got your information, b/c like thea2003, I've been in the home her dobe lived in previously, no barn involved, she was a loved pet, with lots of work put into socializing her, but it just wasn't working, she was extremely aggressive towards the other dogs in the home. so, come clean, atleast in a pm to either myself, thea2003 or the previous owner, air your issue b/c IMO you are off base, sounds like you are defending a breeder with terrible practices.
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:43 AM   #14 (permalink)
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luvindobes, I have another question for you, are you planning on breeding your z factored bitch? In a previous post you stated you have an intact male, are you planning a breeding between the two of them? Just curious.
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:48 AM   #15 (permalink)
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luvindobes, I have another question for you, are you planning on breeding your z factored bitch? In a previous post you stated you have an intact male, are you planning a breeding between the two of them? Just curious.
I'd like to know the same thing. As well, in your intro post lovindobes, you never answered any of the questions about your dogs, like where they are from. Everyone here has been upfront about where they got their dobes.
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:56 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I can't believe anyone -- with all we know about Z factor today and other health issues in general -- would KNOWINGLY breed Z factor.

Yikes!
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:13 AM   #17 (permalink)
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like it or not, zfactor dobes should not be bred. I agree that cardio is more important and we ( scientists) are BUSTING our asses trying to come up with a gene, a test, a treatment, SOMETHING to help with this disease, but its complicated, and expensive and time consuming and we're trying. However, zfactor CAN be eliminiated. Its a fault that is KNOWN, registered and preventable. Why would you ever ever consider that ANY fault to the breed that we all love is "not important"??? comparing z factor to cardio is asinine. it makes NO sense.

Everyone on here that unknowingly got Zfactored dogs, have mostly learned from their mistakes and still love their pets, but know that they shouldn't be bred and understand why. I've met Gunner's dog and he's lovely, nice big boy with a great look, but I agree with her, he could be trouble in the wrong hands. Also, look at thea, honest about the quality of her dog, doesn't make her love her any less!
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:44 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Zeus is also a "z" factored dobie. I didn't know about the z factor until after I bought him and registered him. I love Zeus totally. I had intended on getting whatever dobie I got spayed/neutered so I wasn't concerned about breeding. Zeus doesn't have any health issues or temperment issues other than thin hair. I attribute the thin hair to the fact that he is a blue. Great dog and loves all things. I personally would never breed a z factored dog and if I get another dobie I will do more research into the one I choose before purchasing.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kalecho View Post
luvindobes, I have another question for you, are you planning on breeding your z factored bitch? In a previous post you stated you have an intact male, are you planning a breeding between the two of them? Just curious.

Absolutly not, I respect the Z factor. My two dogs come from completely different lines and are polar opposite in personality. My female is from American showlines and I purchased her with the intent of showing confirmation/obedience.
My Z factor male....is alot of dog coming from strong working lines, however his obedience is great and is excelling at shutzhund. Entering into the sport of shutzhund/protection work is being true to him and his breeding.

I truly started the Z factor thread only to learn more about WHY it is a big deal and WHY there is not a list available for the other health issues that burden our Doberman friends.
Lets face it if I purchase a Z factor dog, I know what I am in for....wouldn't you like to know if you are purchasing a dog with cardio, thyroid...etc.etc. in their lines so you know what you are in for there as well......Unfortunatly all breeders do not hold the same morale.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:32 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Pardon me? Spent the first portion of her life in a barn? Bred at 9mos??
Where are you getting your facts????

Also, yes she IS from strong working lines, but NOT from solid temperments, my dog is a chicken, she is a fearful dog, not from lack of socialization.
And, really, the last "Stong working" dog was Bristol Zamolxis, and that is her Grandfather, neither of her parents were worked, her maternal grandmother had a HIDEOUS temperment from what i am told.
Her father was handler agressive.

Although i agree, hip dysplasia can be environmental, how am i to know? I dont have any tests on parents to say it wasnt from them, my dog isnt LAME most people dont see anything wrong with her.

I didnt mention the HD in this thread cuz i didnt want to blame in on the z factor, i prefer to blame it on poor breeding practices and possible some environmental factors, but please tell me more of the barn she lived in i would love to know cuz i was at her old home many times.

If you have personal gripe with her previous owner please feel free to email me or her.

My dog IS a good example of WHY NOT to breed a z factored dog.
Diesel, another dog with the same sire is a good reason not to breed a z factored dog.

As i was discussing earlier with someone, there is no place for agression in this breed when they are going normally as family pets, not working dogs.

The fact the Gin was bought and knowingly was bred although he was handler agressive is awful and sets a whole lotta families up for heatache when they have to euthanize thier dog
I apoligize if I have offended you....Thea2003 you did state your dog had temperment issues and I was simply pointing out the fact she is from working lines. No her parents were not titled, does not mean they were not capable it was the breeders choice not to do so. No you did not mention the HD, however Gracieface quoted your dogs HD and related it back to the Z factor.
Possibly she is not the same dog I am thinking of...was she bred in her first heat cycle?

I NEVER once said in any of my threads that I was breeding my Z factor dog.
This all started by my husband calling a reputable breeder in Ontario looking into possibly purchasing a female showline (NOT FOR BREEDING, that our male would be neutered). Breeder made my husband aware her lines are VWD positive (which is okay) But we should never step in the ring with our Z factor dog we would be shunned....WHAT!!! Health issues are health issues....This is when I posted the Z factor thread in hopes of obtaining more information. The information I found on Albino's is being Z factor does not kill...
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:50 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 12-05-2008, 10:13 AM   #22 (permalink)
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stepping into the show ring with a z factored dog WILL get you shunned. Its a fact of life that showing is political... if its something that you want to get into/are in, its a fact that you're going to have to live with.

glad to hear that you don't plan on breeding, and damn, i do wish there was a list for cardio, but its just not feasible.
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Old 12-05-2008, 10:26 AM   #23 (permalink)
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gee, a cardio list, hmm, that would be just about every dobe, if you want to list every dog related to one that was dignosed with DCM. That's why the study at Guelph is on dobes.
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Old 12-05-2008, 11:04 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvindobes View Post
Breeder made my husband aware her lines are VWD positive (which is okay) But we should never step in the ring with our Z factor dog we would be shunned....WHAT!!! Health issues are health issues....This is when I posted the Z factor thread in hopes of obtaining more information. The information I found on Albino's is being Z factor does not kill...
What does that mean when you say her lines are VWD positive? Does that mean all the dogs in her pedigree are VWD affected? Do you know how many genetically affected dogs are clinically affected? (Very small percentge) Just how much do you know aboiut VWD? I would take a VWD affected dog over a z factored dog any day of the year. It's simply NOT a killer of this breed. And I'll tell you something else, VWD is only but one clotting factor in the doberman, there have been clears that have bled out. I am not in any way advocating breeding an affected to an affected, nor a carrier to an affected, but I live with a VWD affected bitch, she is NOT a bleeder, she was bred one time to a Clear dog, you simply cannot compare VWD to Z factored dobermans.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I do think that there should be firmer regulations. In north America, more dobes die of heart issues than in europe...i wonder why?? not because they screen and us over here do not.A dog must receive a ScHI in europe before breeding as to prove it is true to the doberman working ability which Louis Dobermann invented the breed for,plus the additional health checks similar to here are done. In a nut shell IMO something must be done right quick on registered breeders that put health at the bottom of the barrell. Z-list is easily downloaded on your screen, the 'silent killer' is not listed.It seems alot of euro dogs are coming in to 'wash out' the cardio issues here in north america. Point being yes Z-list is important, but can be easily fixed, we need to focus on what is claiming dogs as early as 3.
This is just outright false information. ALL dobermans are at risk for Cardio. It doesnt matter where they came from.

I personally prefer the "euro" style dog, but they face the same health issues that American bred dobermans do. If cutting back the risk of cardio were as easy as importing dogs...breeders would have done that long ago.

We dont have a genetic marker for cardio, we do for Albinism. Thus, the Z-list.

BTW- Have you ever looked at the OFA database? Health Information is listed there.
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