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Old 02-11-2013, 11:21 AM   #26 (permalink)
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But you post like you have NO idea what you are doing.REPUTABLE BREEDERS here have already voted against you having a puppy from them. Lets see you finish a dog, health test, pick a compatible match, then go through all the motions of a reputable breeder.
What reputable breeder voted against me having a puppy? Did I miss this somewhere? If you are referring to the thread I posted of a picture of a puppy they said they knew I was posting a picture of their puppy asking for comments that they wouldn't sell to me and I have apologized in that thread for offending and realizing my mistake.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:28 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Well this thread is blowing up. OP i understand you want to do future breedings and etc. Just a word of advice (if im not mistaken you are getting a new pup soon) if you interned to show and the pup is show qual just feel out how the dober-ring is and what it takes to be a breeder in dobermans. To be a breeder in gen you need years of experience and then some i understand your parents bred yorkies but being mentored does help because dobes not only requiring different aspects health wise to be bred you also have to endure the process of docking and cropping pups (if thats your pref) along with the other cares


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Old 02-11-2013, 11:30 AM   #28 (permalink)
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The crazy thing to me is when I asked some reputable breeders the same question about kennels outside the US with dogs worth importing I got some good responses. Some of them stated they would stay within the US so you know the breeder and can get a good relationship with them but others threw out a few names or game me some dogs with strong Argentinian lines to look at dogs in their pedigrees. Not a single one preached about not breeding or anything like that. They listened to what I said how it was something in the future and was just wanting to start do my homework and they were helpful rather than preachy
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:32 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Sorry probably didn't execute that statement above as properly as i wanted to but i was rushing into class but everyone here is being a little harsh with your asking about a dobe female for future breeding because they do not want to see another byb arise everyone throws their constructive criticism because breeding may not be for everybody and sometimes the idea sounds good but the commitment maybe too much


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Old 02-11-2013, 11:33 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I feel like this thread is getting a little out of hand.

I understand the desire to want to contribute to a breed you are passionate about. Yes, this person seems a little cart before the horse, but at least they are researching and asking questions.

OP, good luck with your puppy. I hope everything works out for you.


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Old 02-11-2013, 11:34 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Well this thread is blowing up. OP i understand you want to do future breedings and etc. Just a word of advice (if im not mistaken you are getting a new pup soon) if you interned to show and the pup is show qual just feel out how the dober-ring is and what it takes to be a breeder in dobermans. To be a breeder in gen you need years of experience and then some i understand your parents bred yorkies but being mentored does help because dobes not only requiring different aspects health wise to be bred you also have to endure the process of docking and cropping pups (if thats your pref) along with the other cares


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I want to say I appreciate how you approached me with this post. I do know that it takes lots of knowledge and experience part of why it has taken my almost two years to get my first puppy. I also have been forming relationships with breeders and handlers over that time as well. I am not someone who is just jumping in expecting to know it all and do it all. I realize that I have learned and know a lot but there is much more to come but the earlier I start my research the better armed I am when and if the time comes to breed.

Docking and cropping is not a big deal to me. We docked all our yorkies and I have lived with four different dobermans over the last 5 or so years that all got cropped once they got in the home.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:37 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I feel like this thread is getting a little out of hand.

I understand the desire to want to contribute to a breed you are passionate about. Yes, this person seems a little cart before the horse, but at least they are researching and asking questions.

OP, good luck with your puppy. I hope everything works out for you.


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Thank you.

And if I am seeming like cart before the horse I do apologize. Really I am trying to grow the horse up before I even buy a cart. I have tried to make it clear the puppy that I am trying to find from this thread is years down the road and just want to start following kennels now.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:40 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Sorry probably didn't execute that statement above as properly as i wanted to but i was rushing into class but everyone here is being a little harsh with your asking about a dobe female for future breeding because they do not want to see another byb arise everyone throws their constructive criticism because breeding may not be for everybody and sometimes the idea sounds good but the commitment maybe too much


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I do see what you mean and I am extremely against byb as well, but if I was not the OP and I was reading this thread I would not assume that is what they were trying to be. I actually would see it as someone trying to research and gain the knowledge to become a reputable breeder.

Trust me I understand the committment that goes into showing and breeding dogs. I could be wrong because I have never shown a doberman but I think even more goes into showing a yorkie. Dobermans don't have hair that you have to wrap and take care of.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:51 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I think people here get a little weary of hearing the idea of being a breeder when to be honest, you haven't even spent any time with a Doberman. I've owned Dobermans for over 30 yrs now, from both rescue and show lines, went on to title them in various venues. I have loved them all, spoiled them, and grieved their deaths. For the first time, in 2012 I had one of my dogs sire a litter for his breeder, and kept a puppy from this breeding.

Imho you are getting way ahead of yourself with all your inquiries and research about breeding. Checking into bloodlines is a good thing, but buying 2 dogs quickly is not. I would advise you to raise this first puppy, get a Ch and working title of some kind on it and then consider adding 2nd dog. By then you will have seen how the dogs from the SA lines you are currently interested in age, produce, how long they live, etc. You may totally head in a different direction in the time it takes you to raise your first dog.

I don't think anyone means to be exceptionally harsh here, or crush your dreams. However, for someone who has been in Dobermans for 5 minutes to start collecting dogs with breeding aspirations is worrisome to people who have been in this breed for a long time. (Us oldtimer DT'ers have seen these types come here and then quickly disappear). The smart way to do this is to be mentored by the people you previously mentioned, seek their advice, and go the slow and steady route. (Can I ask how old you are?)

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:54 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I have been in the dog show world almost my whole life. My parents showed and bred yorkies. I know that the yorkie show ring is not near as cut throat and political as the doberman ring but a show ring is a show ring. I know that I enjoy showing and everything that goes with it.
It's great that you are not going into the show ring blind, and realize that you are in for a different ball game with dobermans. I couldn't tell you how different as I haven't and don't really have any desire to show Yorkies. I can tell you though that the doberman ring is more difficult than any other ring I walked into. Not saying this applies to you, but it isn't unheard of for people to enjoy showing in one breed and not another. Been there, done that. I handle a variety of different breeds, some I like much more than others.

Your show ring experience is more than most people coming in, and the breed needs new people. Frankly I can't keep track of everything everyone says, but that is besides the point. Admittedly, things like your Puppy Critque thread, don't exactly show your experience. I understand mistakes are made at times and you just live, learn, and move on.

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Everyone keeps telling me to get mentors and talk to breeders and this and that. Having stated over and over and over that I am a researcher do you not think that I have done all of this. I have at least three breeders that I talk to pretty regularly. One of them being David from Rahdy. I have been talking to him for a while now and he has a wealth of information. Michelle at A'Carigg has also been a huge help to me. Yes I understand I need to talk to breeders and get out there and that is what I have been doing for the last two years.
Again, that is great too, I am researcher also. I spend countless hours looking up pedigrees, looking at different kennels, reading up on health and temperament. It is great that you are talking to a couple people at this point, it's just a start though, not that I would expect you to have done more at this point.

I can't even begun to list all of the breeders I have learned from. I meet them at shows, read their articles, meet them at nationals, send e-mails, sit in on puppy evaluations, ask why you breed dog X to Y. The list goes on. I started with my first show dog's breeder and branched out from there. It takes place over a period of years of ACTIVELY being involved in the breed.

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And I as stated previously I know there is not technically anything new about importing from SA because people are doing it. My goal was to try and find some lines that are not heavily being bred here.
I could care less whether you choose to go with SA or not, but take some time to look a little closer to home. If not for future breeding stock, but just for knowledge. There are plenty of lines that are not heavily bred here and a fair number of breeders that work hard to avoid some of the popular/overbred stud dogs or lines. It gives me the impression (true or not) that you haven't really dug that deep.

I will be one of the first to say how much I dislike the prevalence of some dogs in our current pedigrees. That said, just because a pedigree is different doesn't mean it necessarily has anything to offer. Some do some don't, just like some of the pedigrees loaded with popular dogs.

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I also do have plans of doing other events like agility and obedience and such. I have had other threads talking about that as well and have talked to breeders and trainers and been to events.
Again, that's great. Take the time to go out and do it. I love agility and feel it is a great thing for our breed. It also teaches you a lot about your dog, which IMO is important when making breeding decisions. That said, plenty of people wash out of agility and obedience too; they don't commit the time, are not good trainers, or expect things to be much easier than they are. Until it is a reality, it doesn't mean much to me.

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So unless someone has some pertinent information to my OP I would appreciate people to stop telling me what I need to do, because so far no one has told me anything I need to do that I have not been doing for the last two years. Not trying to be rude I just get frustrated how sometimes people constantly high jack people threads with this that and the other thing not offering information that was asked for. If you feel I am out of line please PM me don't high jack the thread that may be beneficial to someone else as well.
Franky, you don't get to decide what is pertinent or not; I think this thread can be invaluable to those who are considered breeding. Your original post was just as much about breeding as it was about Argentinian lines. Some people (global, not you specifically) get overly excited and start thinking to far down the road and forget how many steps it takes to get there. Aspirations are good, but there needs to be a dose of reality too. There are other people reading and lurking who can learn from what I write, which is why I tend not to send PMs.

Notice I never told you not to breed, I think you have good intentions and want to do right; but just take a step back, take a breath and slow down. I still think your initial post definitely feels like putting the horse before the cart, but maybe that is your excitement bubbling through.

If the breeder of my first show dog had gotten wind that I was already contemplating breeding and looking for more show dogs before my puppy had even arrived, I would have never gotten my puppy. She would not have tolerated someone still relatively new to the breed (I was already active in agility at this point, and it was to be my 4th dobe) making such big plans. That would not have gone over well with her, that's for sure.

Realize I am not all that different from you, I am just several years ahead of you at this point. Not that years is a great way of measuring knowledge, some people won't learn in a lifetime what some people do in a year. I have worked my butt off learning as much as I can for the last 8+ years. I am on my second personal conformation dog, but my 7th doberman. I am one of the few who succeed at finishing their first show dog owner handled. After her I got another bitch, who will hopefully finish. While I would have her breeder (and stud dog owners) blessing if I choose to breed her, I probably won't. I do plan to breed one day, but I will wait until I feel I have the right dog; that maybe the next dog or maybe not. In the meantime I learn as much as I can about every aspect of the doberman.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:11 PM   #36 (permalink)
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It's great that you are not going into the show ring blind, and realize that you are in for a different ball game with dobermans. I couldn't tell you how different as I haven't and don't really have any desire to show Yorkies. I can tell you though that the doberman ring is more difficult than any other ring I walked into. Not saying this applies to you, but it isn't unheard of for people to enjoy showing in one breed and not another. Been there, done that. I handle a variety of different breeds, some I like much more than others.

Your show ring experience is more than most people coming in, and the breed needs new people. Frankly I can't keep track of everything everyone says, but that is besides the point. Admittedly, things like your Puppy Critque thread, don't exactly show your experience. I understand mistakes are made at times and you just live, learn, and move on.



Again, that is great too, I am researcher also. I spend countless hours looking up pedigrees, looking at different kennels, reading up on health and temperament. It is great that you are talking to a couple people at this point, it's just a start though, not that I would expect you to have done more at this point.

I can't even begun to list all of the breeders I have learned from. I meet them at shows, read their articles, meet them at nationals, send e-mails, sit in on puppy evaluations, ask why you breed dog X to Y. The list goes on. I started with my first show dog's breeder and branched out from there. It takes place over a period of years of ACTIVELY being involved in the breed.



I could care less whether you choose to go with SA or not, but take some time to look a little closer to home. If not for future breeding stock, but just for knowledge. There are plenty of lines that are not heavily bred here and a fair number of breeders that work hard to avoid some of the popular/overbred stud dogs or lines. It gives me the impression (true or not) that you haven't really dug that deep.

I will be one of the first to say how much I dislike the prevalence of some dogs in our current pedigrees. That said, just because a pedigree is different doesn't mean it necessarily has anything to offer. Some do some don't, just like some of the pedigrees loaded with popular dogs.



Again, that's great. Take the time to go out and do it. I love agility and feel it is a great thing for our breed. It also teaches you a lot about your dog, which IMO is important when making breeding decisions. That said, plenty of people wash out of agility and obedience too; they don't commit the time, are not good trainers, or expect things to be much easier than they are. Until it is a reality, it doesn't mean much to me.



Franky, you don't get to decide what is pertinent or not; I think this thread can be invaluable to those who are considered breeding. Your original post was just as much about breeding as it was about Argentinian lines. Some people (global, not you specifically) get overly excited and start thinking to far down the road and forget how many steps it takes to get there. Aspirations are good, but there needs to be a dose of reality too. There are other people reading and lurking who can learn from what I write, which is why I tend not to send PMs.

Notice I never told you not to breed, I think you have good intentions and want to do right; but just take a step back, take a breath and slow down. I still think your initial post definitely feels like putting the horse before the cart, but maybe that is your excitement bubbling through.

If the breeder of my first show dog had gotten wind that I was already contemplating breeding and looking for more show dogs before my puppy had even arrived, I would have never gotten my puppy. She would not have tolerated someone still relatively new to the breed (I was already active in agility at this point, and it was to be my 4th dobe) making such big plans. That would not have gone over well with her, that's for sure.

Realize I am not all that different from you, I am just several years ahead of you at this point. Not that years is a great way of measuring knowledge, some people won't learn in a lifetime what some people do in a year. I have worked my butt off learning as much as I can for the last 8+ years. I am on my second personal conformation dog, but my 7th doberman. I am one of the few who succeed at finishing their first show dog owner handled. After her I got another bitch, who will hopefully finish. While I would have her breeder (and stud dog owners) blessing if I choose to breed her, I probably won't. I do plan to breed one day, but I will wait until I feel I have the right dog; that maybe the next dog or maybe not. In the meantime I learn as much as I can about every aspect of the doberman.
I definitely have dug deep into the pedigrees within the US that is the only reason I feel I would be able to pull something from out of the country with less ancestory than what is here. I realize I have a lot more knowledge to gain and have never said that I don't. I appreciate everything you said and how you came at me. I guess my biggest thing is how people approach me with what you say. Attitude is met with attitude. I don't have a problem with constructive criticism just with criticism.

I do apologize for seeming like horse before the cart as I am not trying to be that way. I just want to be able to follow kennels until such a time as I am ready for another doberman. From living with them and talking to friends who own them, they are kind of like tattoos hard to have just one.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:51 PM   #37 (permalink)
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............. not helpful?

well i oughta.............


H I S T O R Y - L A S*** A* R M O N I A S

History

http://www.universodobermann.com/doc...%20article.pdf

breed clubs are a great place to find info. on everything to do with dobes in their areas.......
Doberman Pinscher Breed Clubs

and if you get bored...............
Dobermann Review > Dobermann Breeders Database


Good Morning Dt'ers!
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:00 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
............. not helpful?

well i oughta.............


H I S T O R Y - L A S*** A* R M O N I A S

History

http://www.universodobermann.com/doc...%20article.pdf

breed clubs are a great place to find info. on everything to do with dobes in their areas.......
Doberman Pinscher Breed Clubs

and if you get bored...............
Dobermann Review > Dobermann Breeders Database


Good Morning Dt'ers!
I was not referring to you as not being helpful. I actually was including your posts in the ones that actually were on topic and constructive. I have enjoyed talking/ debating with you in all the threads we have went back and forth on. Your approach is awesome and things you have to say constructive
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
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gad, please do not single me out of the DT pack for any allcolades (sp?)........

we work together as a pack.

i am the one in the pack who cannot spell, amongst other things.



just do me a favor and actuall check out the info. i have linked toooooooooooooooooooooo.

otherwise.it really would have been a waste of my time.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:10 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Argentina Breeders

Well remember yorkies in the ring and dobes are very different. I am not familiar with the yorkie ring i do understand the yorkie req more sprucing up grooming wise for the ring but there are different politics within the rings which makes it difficult for someone unknown to the dobe ring to be successful off the bat (let alone a become a know breeder). Its good your networking within the doberman ring it will help with your future plans. Ive been showing for around 10 years (only in the dobe ring for a year and change). It takes a lot money wise along with patience, skill and perseverance to be successful in it


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Old 02-11-2013, 01:43 PM   #41 (permalink)
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i keep forgetting to mention to those interested in breeders, certain bloodlines....etc................ show catalogues are an awesome research tool.

they list dogs being shown, their parents..breeder.owner.etc.

many breeders advertise in their specialty catalogues..................

i think i still have every show catalogue i ever bought............in fact, i know i do.

I guess nowadays all that info. may be online..................
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:25 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Personally I love this breed heart and soul, but could never breed them, co-own possibly.

That being said, I was able to form that decision by getting out there, from being in the dog/dog show world from basically birth to present (though not always dobes) Heck all those years, and I just now am wanting to compete in the sports I've always taught my dogs!

Find a mentor to work with, to watch go through pedigree/breeding decisions and the long journey that can be, whelping litters, raising a litter, showing their dogs, etc... be like a shadow to the whole process watching and absorbing all that happens. Go to shows and talk to people, meet them, learn the breed, and find someone you connect with that will let you tag along and show you the ropes. It's really one of the best ways, and the major reason I was able to make my decision.

Birthing a litter and raising puppies is far from as simple as the public thinks (not saying you don't know this) but especially if things go wrong. Now add in taking care of all your other dogs, working, showing, and general life and boy, nope I'm good lol.

Again I'm not discounting what knowledge you may have, it can be hard to know over the internet since we only know what has been displayed, but like others have said, don't put the cart before the horse and never ever rush the process.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:36 AM   #43 (permalink)
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What type of research are you doing on the Argentinian lines? What are you, literally, looking for in terms of why you should import and bring those lines in? As some have mentioned...there are tons of SA dogs in the NA lines at this point. I have a bitch with SA lines on both sides of her pedigree.

One thing I haven't heard you mention is health. It's hard enough to get factual answers on some of the NA dogs, but it's pretty damn hard to get info on the SA dogs too. Some of what would generally be EXPECTED here isn't always a priority there. I'm talking information regarding COD, health testing, longevity. Off the top of my head...I don't remember which country(s) it is exactly, but I've heard that they only allow AI from living dogs. And its been rumored often enough that a stud owner there might not disclose that a dog was dead in order to continue to collect stud fees. Just saying.

Don't get me wrong. I'm obviously a fan of what the SA lines have brought to some of the NA lines. But I've also seen a LOT I don't like.

I agree with the others who mentioned finding a reputable breeder to mentor with. That mentor will be knowledgable on pedigrees, information regarding the health of dogs that isn't always disclosed to the general public, can teach you how to identify conformation flaws, how to evaluate health and temperament, etc.
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:11 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xempt Dobermans View Post
I am having a hard time finding breeders in Argentina. I love the look of the dobermans that come out of there and am looking to import a show potential bitch from there to hopefully serve as the foundation of my future breeding efforts. I know of Black Shadow kennels and really like some of the dogs they have produced but want to research some more kennels as I want to be really picky. Also open to breeders from other countries that have quality dogs that people feel should be being brought into the US.
I've been following this thread and from the beginning I've wondered why you are having such a hard time in finding Argentinian breeders.

Even Googling for information on Argentinian breeders (or Brazilain breeders or Mexican breeders) should net you names and websites. From there you should be able to go on to personal contact with those breeders.

And the other thing I wondered was unless you speak and read both Portugese and Spanish I would think that the language barrier would pose a major problem along with the obvious difficulty of getting information on the dogs various of these SA kennels have produced unless you are looking at those that have been shown in the USA and have offspring around to look at and consider.

I also think that you have gotten into end products (breeding) before you have the basics--some experience with one dog, showing one dog and being mentored by an available local breeder of quality dogs who can spend time explaining what is desireable and what is not and how to match up breeding pairs and pedigress as well as historic health and temperament in various lines.

While I wish you well in your research I can tell you that it's infinitely easier to research dogs in your own country than in a foreign country especially when there is a language barrier.

Not many people have been successful in getting high quality dogs from other countries--Kansa Dobermans has addressed this several times with regard to European Dobes. The obvious solution (and the only real solution) is to be very knowlegeable about Dobes and spend time in the country you are looking for Dobes to buy and get to know the breeders. That way you are much more likely to actually get what you say you are hoping for--a bitch with show potential who may possibly serve as the foundation for a breeding program.

So good luck to you but my unsolicited and probably unwanted advice is to check into breeders who have used various of the SA lines and have had success in producing show prospects that are a mixture of SA and AKC dogs. There really are a good many of them who you could learn from.
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:42 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Just thought I'd share my experience: most Latin American breeders are very difficult to get information from over email/telephone. I met up with the Black Shadow kennel owners at a show in Mexico and they were nice in person, but again, not really interested in talking in depth about their breeding practices with a random stranger. Furthermore, most are not willing to talk about important details such as longevity and health testing (if you are just looking to buy from them, then they are fine)... and this is regardless of whether or not you speak Spanish (or Portuguese in the case of Brazilians), of course if you do speak Spanish it will make communication easier... But unless you know someone or you yourself are active in the Dobermann scene in that country, it will be difficult to find what you are looking for.
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