hlm04

can anyone help me. i saw this breeder on the DPCA website. we live in VA and i have just started looking around. here's the link to their PUPPY INFO LINK: is it normal to have the buyers pay for the vWD test?

Puppy Info

CMax

Read that page.
Ridiculous... If the dog is affected, you can either accept it and NOT breed or retest the dog. They are basically excusing themselves for using affected dogs in breeding. Shame...
I can understand getting the buyer to pay for the vWD test if he wants to know if the pup is a clear or a carrier in a clear-carrier combination. But I would never charge if there was even a slight chance of the dog being affected.
Funny thing about vetgen, my male who tested carrier produces only clear pups... how is that?

__________________
"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about little puppies." -- Gene Hill

http://www.eurodobies.com/ - We show, we train, we health test.

Home of:
CH.,BIS Jugin Grand iz Zoosfery, IPO-1. Deceased.
CH.,BOB,BIG Delux de Grande Vinko, IPO-3.
Hismerh Katana Ko, IPO-3.
Canis Maximus Dea Dorres, OKD-1, ZKS-1, Champion Candidacy.
J.CH.x2 Smart Wood Hills Daphne Arbora, ZTP V1A. Retired.

dobebug

i'd say offhand that these folk don't want to understand the basic genetics of vWD in the doberman. but that's neither here nor there--& didn't answer your question.

there really isn't any "normal" when it comes to vWD testing of puppies prior to their sale.

i know breeders who test the entire litter if there is any sort of question as to what the status might be. i know breeders who only test pups they keep even though they test all of their own dogs before they are bred. and i know breeders who simply don't test the puppies at all. the breeders i know all pretty much test prior to breeding any more. but not all of them test the puppies.

personally some of my dogs came to me tested but more did not. i test even when i "know" what the status will be (one of my dogs was the product of a clear x affected breeding--all those puppies were going to be carriers) i test because there has been the occasional lab error--even though there hasn't been one in some time it's like wearing suspenders & a belt...ya' know?

as to the cost--if anyone doesn't know you should always be able to find a clinic so that you can get a dog tested for $99 instead of $140. and vet gen will do a breeder litter discount for as few as three puppies for the $99 per dog price.

MaryAndDobes

Entirely possible if the bitch is clear. If you're breeding, shouldn't you know that?

Navistardobe

Also possible with carrier to carrier breeding.
Most breeders that I know of don't test the puppies unless there is a chance of them being affected. vWD isn't a serious disease in Dobermans unless of course you happen to have one that is clinically affected. Then it is a big deal. But affected dogs are also something that could be very easy to eliminate in Dobermans.

Debbie, Kira & Ember
Navistar Dobermans

clipclop

Well, what most people dont know is that to be a carrier means the gene is heterozygous. That means that if bread with another carrier there are the following possible outcomes:

Carrier
Affected
Clear

A Carrier (heterozygous) bred with Affected (homozygous dominant) can produce:

Carrier
Affected

Affected to Affected will only produce Affected

Clear to Carrier cannot yield an affected dog ...

Clear
Carrier are the only two possibilities

... if I recall my genetics accurately... its been a LONG time

Megs

I think you got it all right except one thing ClipClop - vWD is an autosomal recessive disease - which is why carriers won't be "clinically affected" because they carry one good copy, dominant to the mutated recessive allele. Otherwise, nice work

VaBtrfly

Personally, I didn't see any where on that page that said they were breeding carrier to carrier or even affected dogs. As a matter of fact, I know they don't. The dogs/bitches in their breeding program have been tested and are either carrier or clear. To my knowledge, they do not breed affected dogs at all. What they did, was wonder aloud to prospective buyers about the unreliability of some tests and the fact that vetgen can not give them the answers to their particular questions. They do not discourage testing, they simply don't offer the test on their pups because they already know their dogs will either be clear or carrier.

I wouldn't discount them as a prospective breeder on this alone. JMO.

dobebug

i didn't find any place on their website where they gave vWD status on any dog.

in fact vet gen can & has explained to breeders who called & asked why vWD affected dogs, in dobermans, are not ALL clinically affected (are not all symptomatic; do not all have bleeding issues). it sounded to me from what was written in the vWD section that they asked vet gen & didn't like or didn't understand the answer.

i listed a number of things that were NOT present on their website which would make me discard them as a prospect when it came to buying a puppy.

most of my dogs have not been vWD tested when i got them--that didn't bother me--not having registered names, not having pedigrees, not showing test results (if tested) did bother me.

and the vaguaries of the gene pool are such that when i was looking up vWD status on a dog several years ago i noticed that someone had clearly bred carriers & had tested the entire litter (10 puppies--i assume it was the entire litter) and had 9 clear & one carrier puppy. the figures are averages & you need a lot of dogs to see that statistical average work out. i also know of a litter of six puppies from a carrier to carrier breeding who all turned out to be affected. sometimes it's just the luck of the genetic draw.

VaBtrfly

They don't breed carrier to carrier. They don't breed affecteds. They breed clear to clear or carrier to clear. I see what you're driving at though, and agree that it would be better for everyone involved (including themselves) to list that information "along with" their opinions on vetgen's vWD testing. I'll shoot them over an email, and suggest it to them.