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Old 02-01-2013, 12:25 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post
Yes, but those are the kind of dogs that would probably be good starter dogs in IPO if their owners were so inclined. There are just a lot less people doing IPO than agility. There are so few, if any, IPO clubs in certain parts of the country and it does take longer to get the "finished " .product

A lot of people just don't have time to drive 2+ hours one way to a club, be there 6 hrs, drive home, once or twice a week.
I think where we disagree with this is in our opinion of what makes a "good starter dog" in IPO. I used to say I was glad I had Zeus to get involved with because we could do tracking and learn obedience from an easier to live with dog. But after becoming enamored into the sport, every single day, it kills me that I have opportunities left and right to own a sport dog (for free as well) and I can not do that because I have a male pet. I absolutely love my dog more than anything, but I am 100% in love with the sport, and not being able to own a dog that is really going to 'bring it' on the schutzhund field yet is tough. I am in a very 'lucky' position to choose a bitch to train and title. If I did not have that option, this would be a very tough next couple of years due to wanting a schutzhund dog, having all of the resources available to really train and compete hard, and not being able to do such.

At first, it is fun regardless. Then it is frustrating to never make any progress. It is tiring to continually have to build a dog. It is more frustrating when you see other dogs succeeding well and improving much faster than yourself. It is disheartening to go through that as a handler/trainer. When you have worked and worked on a dog, and then you never get passed a certain point, it begins to wear on you. People begin to think it is their training abilities because someone once told them "any dog with drive can do it", and therefore when their dog is not doing it, they take it out on themselves.

My club is extremely nice to beginners and catering towards dogs who just simply do not have it. (Many rescues of many breeds train with us). The decoy and trainer are nice and say "We will continue working the dog for as long as you and him/her enjoy it". Having said this, the amount of disappointment they all begin feeling after a year or so is immense. One man who was very active in GSD rescue and tried it with FOUR different rescued GSDs, finally caved this year and bought a Dutch shepherd from a reputable breeder. He is a very patient older man, but to see his face now when he does absolutely anything with his Dutchie girl explains it all. She has all of the potential in the world, and everything he does with her is easier and more enjoyable.

Another man who two dobermans. They are from BYB Euro show lines and a breeder that pumped him full of lies. The male basically has nothing as far as potential goes. The female has a lot of drive to work, please, and a decent amount of prey drive. She has not made progress in over a year after hitting a plateau around 15 months. He has now given up on both of them sport wise, but because he can not own another dog (especially a working line doberman) at the time, he is desperately trying to become a certified decoy. He got hooked to the sport, but the only way he can currently enjoy the sport is by training as a decoy. His overall outlook on training diminished every week, and it was sad because he had so many goals, ideas, plans, etc that he wanted to do, and his dog's genetics did not even allow him to "try".

Point being, I have seen people that could not even "try to have fun" dabbling in the sport of schutzhund.

Could these dogs dabble in agility? Yes. Could they have fun in agility? Yes. Would they be good competitors? Who knows, probably not. But unlike with IPO, they would at least be able to do something in agility.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Also, I think many well bred competitive agility prospects would have the necessary amount of prey drive to title at a club level. Enough for an IPO 3? No clue as I haven't seen one. BUT what agility does not test for is the strength of nerve. Of course very weak nerved dogs may have issues, but I do not believe agility tests whether a dog has decent nerve versus solid-as-a-rock nerve. Nor does agility test the aggression or defensive drives that a good trainer would bring out on the schutzhund field.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:18 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
I think where we disagree with this is in our opinion of what makes a "good starter dog" in IPO. I used to say I was glad I had Zeus to get involved with because we could do tracking and learn obedience from an easier to live with dog. But after becoming enamored into the sport, every single day, it kills me that I have opportunities left and right to own a sport dog (for free as well) and I can not do that because I have a male pet. I absolutely love my dog more than anything, but I am 100% in love with the sport, and not being able to own a dog that is really going to 'bring it' on the schutzhund field yet is tough. I am in a very 'lucky' position to choose a bitch to train and title. If I did not have that option, this would be a very tough next couple of years due to wanting a schutzhund dog, having all of the resources available to really train and compete hard, and not being able to do such.

At first, it is fun regardless. Then it is frustrating to never make any progress. It is tiring to continually have to build a dog. It is more frustrating when you see other dogs succeeding well and improving much faster than yourself. It is disheartening to go through that as a handler/trainer. When you have worked and worked on a dog, and then you never get passed a certain point, it begins to wear on you. People begin to think it is their training abilities because someone once told them "any dog with drive can do it", and therefore when their dog is not doing it, they take it out on themselves.

My club is extremely nice to beginners and catering towards dogs who just simply do not have it. (Many rescues of many breeds train with us). The decoy and trainer are nice and say "We will continue working the dog for as long as you and him/her enjoy it". Having said this, the amount of disappointment they all begin feeling after a year or so is immense. One man who was very active in GSD rescue and tried it with FOUR different rescued GSDs, finally caved this year and bought a Dutch shepherd from a reputable breeder. He is a very patient older man, but to see his face now when he does absolutely anything with his Dutchie girl explains it all. She has all of the potential in the world, and everything he does with her is easier and more enjoyable.

Another man who two dobermans. They are from BYB Euro show lines and a breeder that pumped him full of lies. The male basically has nothing as far as potential goes. The female has a lot of drive to work, please, and a decent amount of prey drive. She has not made progress in over a year after hitting a plateau around 15 months. He has now given up on both of them sport wise, but because he can not own another dog (especially a working line doberman) at the time, he is desperately trying to become a certified decoy. He got hooked to the sport, but the only way he can currently enjoy the sport is by training as a decoy. His overall outlook on training diminished every week, and it was sad because he had so many goals, ideas, plans, etc that he wanted to do, and his dog's genetics did not even allow him to "try".

Point being, I have seen people that could not even "try to have fun" dabbling in the sport of schutzhund.

Could these dogs dabble in agility? Yes. Could they have fun in agility? Yes. Would they be good competitors? Who knows, probably not. But unlike with IPO, they would at least be able to do something in agility.
I'm not sure how you got all that from my one statement but we owe OP a huge apology for derailing his thread. And I never said any show ring reject can do IPO. I simply(or so I thought) made an observation that all sports think their's is the ultimate. I even included the rolley-eye thing to keep it light.

How about another thread where we discuss some common shortcomings of IPO "prospects"? I'd really like to know other's opinions on that.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:37 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The conversation began when you quoted the OP's post saying "I don't think an akc agility dog will have what I need".

I was agreeing with her in my long winded post stating that NO I do not think just because the dog can do agility that it will also serve what she is looking for in a working bite sport prospect.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:08 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I'm confused why agility gets thrown under the bus in these debates when agility and IPO are apples and tires. LOL

Schutzhund was developed to test breed suitability for the GSD. Not all dogs are bred with the intentions of producing the ideal GSD.

Agility was developed as a sport for the dog species. All dogs can run and jump and learn to follow instructions from their person.

Logic tells me that of course there are going to be way more dogs that excel in agility than schutzhund. LOL

Also, I have a comment worth about a hay penny that I'd like to make regarding the testing of (or failure to test) nerve in agility as compared to schutzhund. But I'll not derail this thread any further; I'm just hoping someone more knowledgeable than I will start that conversation in a new thread.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:09 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I think Asmit's post above was excellent and knowing the op I think is pertinant. BTW the op got her first dog from me. Circumstances in her life made her make the extremely difficult and painful yet responsible decision to contact me and return the dog. She had made every effort imaginable to remedy her situation at the time to enable her to keep him. I woiuld not hesitate to recommend her to breeder.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:12 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Schutzhund was developed to test breed suitability for the GSD. Not all dogs are bred with the intentions of producing the ideal GSD.

)
Yes this is a historical fact. However Schutzhund has changed a lot. I firmly believe Schutzhund, if trials are held in a proper manner, is the best possible breed suitability test available for the Dobermann breed.
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