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Old 12-22-2012, 08:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Another silly question

Sorry for all the stupid questions. I have alot of spare time on my hands lately. So ive been researching bloodlines online and etc...

I realize just because a dog is a champion it doesnt mean that dog came from a reputable breeder and etc.. But do reputable breeders inbreed dobermans? I was looking at this one dogs pedigree and had been inbred closely together with the same champions almost back to back. Id have to relook at that said dogs pedigree again to make sure.

How do you determend what lines a dog is. Like some dogs i looked at online had several differant show kennels in the pedigree? Would it be the kennel which is most predominate?

Is there a place to check and see based on pedigree information what those lines carry as far as genetic disorders?

Im not looking to start a debate or a hot thread. Just trying to educate myself more on the matter.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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How do you determend what the lines are as far as working lines and etc... Also is there a place to understand some of the abbreviations in a pedigree like ive read some pedigrees with arg and etc.. i know what am,ca,international and all that means not sure what the others stand for. thanks
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I am a novice at this myself. I'm sure someone will come along to better help you determine this as I too am interested.

As you well know, no question is too silly here
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Arg=Argentina

Poke around and do some forum searches, there are threads on everything you're asking.

Lots of free time + lots of reading and research=Good for your puppy
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
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This is a good list of titles:

Dog Titles & Abbreviations

You can usually tell by the titles if the dogs are from working or show lines. Some are a mix of both.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:14 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I never can get the search to work right i put in a subject and i bring up a ton of things that have nothing to with what im searching for. Like this one dogs pedigree i found his internation champions, American Champions, Canadian Champions and idk some other weird things on there names. Yet they come from SO many different show kennels and im not expert to say there good breeders or not. Then on the 1 side of the pedigree i see inbreeding. I went traced back some of these dogs back to there kennel websites and there websites have virtually no information on them. Apparently that dogs bloodline comes from all over the world.

On my previous post about bloodlines of this ladys dog i was talking to her about. I called the breeder that was on her papers after finally finding him and he sells to brokers and says he gets 4,000 a puppy because there from kimbertal lines. I asked how far back are these kimbertal bloodlines (yes ive read on here about kimbertal) he had told me its the great great grandma of so and so in the litter certificate. Which is the last dog you can see on the paperwork this lady sent me in email to try and find out more. i just shake my head. I guess somewhere back in the history of this dog there was a champion and it automaticly makes his dogs worth thousonds.

I think i read about cambria dobermans on here that was in this 1 dogs pedigree but only like 2 of cambrias champions. I think i read they are reputable or am i wrong?
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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My boy has cambria lines...

Most of Cambria, I thought, were only bred to other qualified dogs.
I guess they could be bred without breeder consent... there are some skuzzy people in the world.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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On this dogs pedigree im looking at is CH. Cambria's Inside Edition. So i am correct in assuming cambria is a good reputable breeder? Most of these kennels ive been looking up i havent heard nothing on them
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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To my knowledge, they are and their studs of the past have frozen semen to qualified bitches only... visit their site.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hmmmm this is all very interesting to me.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Are you for real? You bought your dog from a BYB and argued and defended it. I think you have enough to worry about with your puppy. Devote yourself to your pup and her training, then worry about all of this stuff that is way over your head. Good luck to your puppy.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Are you for real? You bought your dog from a BYB and argued and defended it. I think you have enough to worry about with your puppy. Devote yourself to your pup and her training, then worry about all of this stuff that is way over your head. Good luck to your puppy.
I understand where you are coming from, but others are interested in this topic too.

Commend K.F. for returning from being bashed and trying to make better for her pup. She is learning and expanding her knowledge of the breed, its standards, expectations, etc.

Besides, do you know how many BYB bought dogs are owned by members of this site who have said nothing regarding their pup's heritage?

I would say that the ignorance in the past posts showed some sort of a set.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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OP, part of your problem is you ask so many questions a person would have to write a small book to answer them. It looks like you want the answers handed to you instead of doing the legwork yourself. Try putting one term like inbreeding or linebreeding into the search and choosing the "search titles only".

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Old 12-22-2012, 10:36 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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OP, part of your problem is you ask so many questions a person would have to write a small book to answer them. It looks like you want the answers handed to you instead of doing the legwork yourself. Try putting one term like inbreeding or linebreeding into the search and choosing the "search titles only".
^^^This.

And, ditto on the suggestion that your time is better spent learning how to best care for, and train in a positive manner, the current puppy you have.

All this other stuff can be waaaaay on the backburner, for now.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The search function on this site can be a pita, I'll give you that. What I've learned to do is go to google, type in my search words and "dobermantalk". That usually pulls up more relevant threads, IMO.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:34 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Last i checked this forum was to learn and ask questions? I did not see the limit to how many questions a person can ask? I thought this was a educational forum. So how does one learn without posting questions? Ive been searching on this topic but havent found the answers ive needed. Some breeders say yes inbreeding is ok. Some breeders say no. I personally DO not think inbreeding is ok. But i was hoping for the correct answer of what a TRUE reputable breeder would say on the subject. It seems redfawn you are just still sour about the past. If you dont want to help me thats fine im not ASKING you to. Im asking a forum for answers as a whole and it is up to people regardless if they want to answer or not. Theres no need to put me down in every thread. Atleast im trying to learn and not fight. Im sorry that in my spare time when im not caring for my dog and i have all my daily things taken care of i choose to learn more about dobermans. Im sorry that offends you in some way.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:48 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Last i checked this forum was to learn and ask questions?
Yes, but what you don't realize is that this question is like going on a car forum and asking how to rebuild your engine. People that really know pedigrees actually KNOW the dogs in them from years of actively competing in the breed. You are never going to learn pedigrees from an internet forum. I would suggest sticking to topics that are actually RELEVANT to YOU. It's not like you are planning on going out and getting a mentor, buying a competitive dog from a decent breeder and competing with it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:00 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Disclaimer for me, I am not a breeder and I am still learning about all of these things myself. So my opinions on this are purely as a layman who might someday be purchasing a puppy from a reputable breeder. I also go for working lines. A CH in front of a dog's name is not enough to interest me in a particular breeder, especially if there's no working titles on the dog. And no Kimbertal lines. That kennel is not a responsible breeder and there is no way I would pay 4K for a pup whose only redeeming factor (ha) is a Kimbertal champion several generations back.

I know linebreeding and inbreeding can sometimes be done to fix traits you want in a pup. I also know that doing those things too much can cause all sorts of health problems and that a lot of breeders purposely avoid breeding close relatives- for good reason. If I were buying a pup, I would not want lines that had the same ancestors used in both the dam and the sire. I wouldn't want inbreeding at all unless it was extremely limited and not done between very close relatives (a father to daughter, or mother to son, etc.). Genetic diversity is severely lacking in a lot of purebred dogs.

Dobermans are not as bad off as some breeds though, and we're lucky to have a lot of truly awesome people working to breed healthier dogs here.

For more info on dog shows and breeding for show dogs, I would definitely go to youtube and watch Pedigree Dogs Exposed. It's a documentary put out in England about dog shows and breeding practices. Like everything else, go in with an open mind and be sure you read opinions on both sides of the issue because that documentary is produced from just the one point of view. However, that documentary brought up some very good points about the practices of breeding dogs for show. I don't think Dobermans were mentioned, but it's still a good learning point for people.

And also take a look at the LUA Dalmatian outcross program. There's a case where a deliberate outcross with another breed was done in order to eliminate a serious health problem in Dalmatians. You want a good case study that brought a lot of controversy to a breed, that's surely one of them. But it's a case where they had to ask a question: "Do we want to allow our breed to suffer from a painful health condition that can be fatal in some dogs, or do we want to outcross and then breed back to other Dalmatians in order to eliminate it?" It makes for good reading, if you're interested in how breeds and traits within those breeds are fixed.

Last edited by River; 12-23-2012 at 10:05 AM.. Reason: Forgot a link
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Just trying to help you out by saying, keep it simple. You will get more answers that way. How's your way working out for you? There are 7 questions in your first two posts. Most don't have simple answers. The answers are more subjective.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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River thanks for the info. I actually did watch pedigrees exposed. I did not know about the dalmation thing though.Ill have to look at it. I wouldnt mind one day getting into finding a mentor and eventually learning the ropes and having a hobby in showing. So anything pertaining to animals to me is of interest.

Ive always wanted to show dogs ive wanted to be a vet tech and i ran into a dead end there til one of the members on this forum helped and pointed me in the right direction.

Rather it be dobermans i attempt to show way down the road or another breed. I want to learn all i can. Even if its a bust and i dont show atleast i learned. My questions about certain kennels is because i want to know which lines are good lines and which are bad because 90% of the websites ive went to did not put any health testing information.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I am enjoying reading his thread. I have no intention of ever breeding, I just love my Dobies. I don't mind how I improve my knowledge base.

Thanks for starting this discussion, don't be put off.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:44 AM   #23 (permalink)
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"But do reputable breeders inbreed dobermans?"

The smartest breeder I ever met told me this "To inbreed sucessfully you need several things. You have to KNOW what you want, You have to KNOW what you don't want, and you must be willing to cull ruthlessly" He also said when it works everyone talks about the great linebreeding you just made. When it doesnt they all talk about your horrible in-bred dogs you have.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:24 PM   #24 (permalink)
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KF...

I think if you look at pedigrees from some of the good dogs and good breeders you'll find linebreeding is pretty common.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I agree 100%. The point I was hoping to get across is the good breeders do it for a specific reason, a trait they are looking to keep or magnify. Or maybe something they were trying to eliminate. Not because half brother and sister were the only 2 good dogs they had. Not because they were trying to get 1 more CH or SCH on a pedigree.


just my opinion but alot of people who chose to linebreed (dogs, horses etc) shouldnt BUT seeing a line breeding a couple generations back shouldnt be a cause of alarm.
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