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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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genreal breeding question

me and my wife LOVE "ziegen" and we would love to have another dobe. We would like one from his same blood line and genetics. Now with that said we would like to stud him out for the "pick of the litter" as i am assuming that is how it goes? we are not looking to become breeders we just really want another dobe from his line becuase he is very well behaved and beautiful. what is the best way to go about this? is it even acceptable? we dont really know the first thing about breeding/rules or anything. We just really like our dog and would love to get another with the same genetics. If this is crazy and i need to just pick up another dog from my breeder please excuse my ignorance. By the way we purchased the dog from Aeolus breeders in Rosharon,TX i do have all of his paperwork/ bloodline etc.




Last edited by Zdog; 12-16-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 01:44 PM
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No.

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:00 PM
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Don't breed him. It's a lot more complicated than just finding a bitch to breed him to. As for the breeder you got him from, their website is kinda thin on information.


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Last edited by Rosemary; 12-16-2012 at 02:10 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:03 PM
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Aeolus used to be show breeders. Then they stopped showing but kept breeding. In the last year they brought in Kimbertal to their breeding program. Be careful what you get from them.

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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:04 PM
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The preferred method to obtain another dog of the same genetics is to return to the breeder you bought your current one from. Since he is a male, you should only get a female. I would tend to think that Aeolus would not sell him to you with breeding rights - you probably have a limited registration on him which means if you breed him, you can't register the litter with the AKC.

How old is he and are you supposed to neuter him or are you actually supposed to be showing him? Did you sign a contract with the breeder? If so, you might need to get it out and re-read it.

Many dogs have Aeolus Arabian Knight (Oozi) behind them - from your breeder in Tx. Am/Can/Int'l Ch Aeolus' Arabian Knight WAC CGC TDI RN - I know he features prominently in the pedigrees of my dogs.


the boys (rip): Cato, Emerald's Black Onyx, Emerald's Black Quartz
Owned by the girls: Enid, Jill (kelpie) and Lana.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdd View Post
Aeolus used to be show breeders. Then they stopped showing but kept breeding. In the last year they brought in Kimbertal to their breeding program. Be careful what you get from them.
Wow, I had no idea this happened. Why would they do that?


the boys (rip): Cato, Emerald's Black Onyx, Emerald's Black Quartz
Owned by the girls: Enid, Jill (kelpie) and Lana.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdog View Post
me and my wife LOVE "ziegen" and we would love to have another dobe. We would like one from his same blood line and genetics. Now with that said we would like to stud him out for the "pick of the litter" as i am assuming that is how it goes? we are not looking to become breeders we just really want another dobe from his line becuase he is very well behaved and beautiful. what is the best way to go about this? is it even acceptable?
Short answer, no, absolutely not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdog View Post
we dont really know the first thing about breeding/rules or anything.
This is one of many reasons as to why not.


Please do not breed your dog. Neuter him and love him as your perfect companion. If you want another, consider rescuing! Every dog is an individual so you will not ever find a dog exactly like your boy - even if the dog comes from the same lines. Love your boy for who he is and consider rescuing and saving a life for your second doberman. You will likely find a second amazing companion and you will also be saving a life.



No dog is at fault for being born into this world.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:08 PM
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You are quite likely to bet a number of negative responses to your question. This is a group that is very passionate about this breed, and many of our members work in Rescue and see the results of indiscriminate breeders everyday.

Please stay around and learn and to all my fellow DTers... be kind, I believe this OP has asked a sincere, uninformed question. Let's educate rather than persecute!

As to your question -- please, don't do it! The best way to go about getting another Dobe is to purchase one, or better yet adopt one from a rescue. There are thousands and thousands of Dobes in rescues and shelters waiting for a home. Please do not add to over-population problem.

Is there any reason you can't go back to the breeder you got your current boy from and get another? If that's not possible, then post his pedigree and we may just be able to direct you to a breeder that breeds the same basic lines.

The Dobe gene pool is pretty small and they are all pretty much related one way or another. I have 2 now, a male born in 2008 and a female born earlier this year and they are both from the same basic lines as my very first Doberman, that I got in 1968!

Please don't breed. Neuter your male, love and enjoy him and if you are looking into getting another, please make sure you educate yourself on the many health issues Dobes have as well as same sex aggression. You will definitely want a female.

Welcome to DT and brace yourself for the onslaught.

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:20 PM
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Hello, cute Christmas picture.

As I have come to learn, DT is a very passionate place when it comes to the ethics/rules of people who choose to breed Dobermans. As they should, because there are plenty of people in it for the wrong reasons.

There are several "legs" of rules that need to be met before a Doberman is considered a worthy breeding animal. Complete health testing, titling to prove proper form/function/etc., longevity in pedigree, temperament evaluation....just to name a few. Research them here and you'll find oodles of info on just how much work and effort ethical breeders go to to produce a top quality litter of animals.

"Pick of the litter" is generally frowned upon, unless you're willing as his breeder to be responsible for all the other puppies you help him bring into the world. Which is a major chore and responsibility in itself.

My vote is to not even think about breeding right now. But your boy is beautiful. I am starting to love red Dobe's more and more as time goes on...

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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
Wow, I had no idea this happened. Why would they do that?
$$$$$$$.

It appears they have now removed any links to puppies or litters from their website.


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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:28 PM
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Welcome to the forum Cute boy you have there. If you read through the sticky on the breeding section you will find all the points on what is generally accepted as a reputable breeder, do you think you could meet these requirements? Even if its just one litter, it really needs to be done right or not at all.

I would say that if you don't want to do it 100% you would be better to rescue or buy from some one who is prepared to give it 100% Personalities vary so much even in one litter, getting another Ziegen is not likely no matter what lines you go for. You will likely get someone completely different who you love equally as much.



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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2012, 02:31 PM
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No you shouldn't unless your boy is fully health tested and titles in some venue to prove breeding worthiness. Plus anyone with a bitch worth breeding to would require this as well. Anything else would just be a backyard breeding and we don't need more of those with all of the dogs being PTS in shelters everyday.

I love your boy's color, I would like to see who he is out of. Aeolus Arabian Knight looks to be NA and your boy looks full Euro to me.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 09:09 AM
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don't do it. neuter your dog and pick up a female puppy from the same lines, and spay her as well. leave the breeding to the professionals who have dedicated their entire lives to breeding healthy, quality dogs over generations of fine stock, hard work and lots of research, showing and titling, health testing and knowledge.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Every dog is an individual so you will not ever find a dog exactly like your boy - even if the dog comes from the same lines.
This deserves repeating.

For some reason people think that getting an animal from the same lines will produce the same temperament and traits of their current animal.

Every living thing is different, just like every person is different. Do you have the exact same personality as your parents? Siblings? Cousins? Probably not, because that's not how it works. I know people who have got dogs or cats from the same breeder who uses the same lines, and then tries to compare the two animals and are disappointed. They are different and will always be.

Its best to accept that each animal is an individual, and to appreciate them for that

Leave the breeding to reputable breeders. Get a female puppy (because of male-on-male aggression in this breed) from a good breeder, neuter your boy and enjoy every minute with them



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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 05:33 PM
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He looks like a wonderful happy dog who is enjoying your cool (and squashed) garden. A lot of people do breed their dogs to try & get a clone that they can love - but I'm doubtful that anyone on this board would be supportive of the idea.

You can't clone him. No puppy will be the same as him. Just look at families you know & compare children - it's really rare that they are all alike. If you do breed him, then someone has to take care of those puppies & their possible puppies and so on.

Many people here work in rescue - and they see too many very sad puppies & full grown dogs that come from people who didn't do any research, who haven't worked or shown their dogs to have good health, temperment, ability, form, shape, genetics. Puppy mills & backyard breeders don't follow up on where their dogs go - and you don't want your dog's puppies to become part of that cycle.

Enjoy him, seriously consider neutering him and talk to good breeders about another dog with a temperment that you can enjoy. Not a replacement for Ziegen, but a different and still lovable & loving addition to the family.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 05:41 PM
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99% of dobermans are loving and beautiful, it does not mean you need to breed your pet. There are plenty of other loving companion dogs out there be they through a rescue group or a reputable breeder. A reputable breeder being one that that goes through all the stops breeding dogs and striving to improve the breed as a whole through health testing and titling in conformation or other venues .
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Every dog is an individual so you will not ever find a dog exactly like your boy - even if the dog comes from the same lines. Love your boy for who he is and consider rescuing and saving a life for your second doberman. You will likely find a second amazing companion and you will also be saving a life.
There is an old saying..."It's never the same river."

That's sort of how genetics works. Ma Nature stirs that gene pool deliberately to get a wide assortment of possibilities going in offspring.

And no one ever raises the second (or sixth or 25th dog the same as they raised the first one)--nurture comes into play and even with very similar bloodlines you find yourself with a dog who might look like the one you are trying to recreate but generally they aren't even close when it comes to temperament and personality.

A breeder friend of mine always recommends that people who are adding another Dobe to thier household for the first time should get the opposite sex and a different color--she always tells them that way they won't be setting the new dog up to be a disappointment because he turns out not to be a new edition of the first Doberman.

I've had Dobes for the better part of well over 50 years and have yet to find two that were even close in temperament, personality and looks to even dogs closely related to them. But I've learned (and it was hard lesson for me and the first two dogs after my first Doberman suffered by my continual comparison of them to the first dog). Thereafter I learned that each dog would be different and charming and wonderful but in their own way and not in the way that their predicessors were.

Don't even think about breeding your male to try to get another like him--it's not going to happen and the chances of you being able to find someone with a decent bitch who would go for this proposed breeding aren't very good.

Great Christmas picture...and I know that you can't permanently squash those plants he's lounging in--my cat used to sleep in a big pot of them that I had in an entryway--he occasionally broke a leaf but the plants survived everything.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 07:18 PM
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I hope you are still with us OP, please don't breed
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 08:56 PM
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Zdog, are you still reading?

If so, are you taking all this in?

What are your thoughts, at this point?

My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today~Richard Adams


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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Please do not breed your dog. Neuter him and love him as your perfect companion. If you want another, consider rescuing! Every dog is an individual so you will not ever find a dog exactly like your boy - even if the dog comes from the same lines. Love your boy for who he is and consider rescuing and saving a life for your second doberman. You will likely find a second amazing companion and you will also be saving a life.
Repeating this again. You could clone your dog and you would still not end up with the same dog. I absolutely dread the day I am going to loose my PupPup but it is going to happen and I know that no matter what I will not get him back. There are SO many other dogs out there that are loving and wonderful that need and deserve good homes, that end up in the euthanasia pens at the shelter because there are so many. How would you feel if you found out that one of your dog's puppies ended up there? Knowing that YOU brought that life into this world. Personally, I think it is very selfish for people who want to breed just to get one puppy to replace the dog they currently have. Litters are usually between 5-10 (someone correct me if I'm wrong). What happens to all those other puppies? Have you seen some of the horrible things that people do to dogs? Even if you "screen" potential owners unless you are willing to keep in contact with them how will you actually know what is going on with the puppies? How would you feel if you happened to find out that one of the lives you created was tied to a tree with a heavy chain with no food or water? Please neuter your boy. I'm sure he is wonderful, that is the nature of this breed, but there is no way to replicate him exactly so please do not breed him.

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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 03:45 AM
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What everyone else and especially Bug said.

Unless you go to the expense of cloning your dog lightning will not strike twice.

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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 08:46 AM
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Zdog You have been giving a lot of wonderful advice. Please take it in and learn from it.
If you are wanting another puppy with similar lines to what your boy has you can get that from a responsible respected breeder. One dog that comes to mind is Am/Can/Int'l Ch Aeolus' Arabian Knight WAC CGC TDI RN. Oozi as he was called was a wonderful dog with a GREAT temperament that lived a great life. I cant remember if he was 10 or 11 when he passed on though? So sadly he is no longer around but his offspring are and you can find him in pedigrees today. I loved Oozi and had spent some time with that stunning red boy. I would be happy to help you find some breeders in your area that have him in their pedigrees if you would like.

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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 09:05 AM
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I think sometimes if the advice is not what they want to hear they disappear. I hope this isn't the case......
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-18-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q734 View Post
Unless you go to the expense of cloning your dog lightning will not strike twice.
While there are services (or, is a service?) that do this you actually would not get the same exact dog. They'd look the same (though unless tou get the same vet to crop as before that could be very different) and will have some similar personality points but they still won't be exactly the same. There is the nature (genetics) part of personality but upbringing (nurture) shapes how a person or an animal is also.



No dog is at fault for being born into this world.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-20-2012, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
While there are services (or, is a service?) that do this you actually would not get the same exact dog. They'd look the same (though unless tou get the same vet to crop as before that could be very different) and will have some similar personality points but they still won't be exactly the same. There is the nature (genetics) part of personality but upbringing (nurture) shapes how a person or an animal is also.
I firmly believe that barring some serious mistake in rearing DNA far outweighs slight differences in environment.

E.g. no matter what a person does can one raise a lion to be a bomb proof service animal

-^-^-^----_^-^-^---^-^-^-^-/\-^->
Help the doberman by doing your homework BEFORE buying!


Search a Dam or Sires health certifications

Reading Pedigrees: A Lost Art?

The Pox of Popular Sires

DOBEQUEST <-incomplete but worthwhile

DPCA Longevity List of stored Sires
Puppies on Ice: Collected sires for future use
-^-^-^-^---^-^-^-^----^---^--------/\_____
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