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Old 12-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Sant Kreal....again

Hello there, I am brand spanking new to the forum and have been browsing all day, reading all I can about Sant Kreal, as I am in talks to purchase a pup from her right now. I have previously been burned by 2 US breeders (different breed), and have also imported a dog with great success, so I thought to import again since I MUCH prefer the Euro doberman look and working ability and I got more dog for my money, AND a healthier dog to boot. I'm just wondering if there are any horror stories about Sant Kreal. If there are any specific dogs to beware of in a pedigree? Also, what should a person expect to pay for a show quality bitch from such a line-- both parents are CH and working titled with multiple health clearances. Bitch is black and tan, 3 months old, ear cropped, etc. Thanks so much for any replies. Going back to reading and learning now!
PS-- I have years of experience with working dogs (rottweilers) but this will be my first Dobe. I'm looking for a dog to show, train, do competitive obedince, possibly schutzhund, search and rescue...the skies the limit. I also require a dog with a quite off-duty temperament who will not be a nightmare in the house. I had a friend who bought a Kimbertal dog (no worries, I have no desire to purchase a pup from them, I'm quite aware of their reputation), and she was a NIGHTMARE In the house. In her defense, she probably did not get enough exercise, but she really was rather high strung and not at all what I am looking for. I have seen videos of my prospective pup and she seems alert, social, keen, and quietly observant.

Carey in Ohio
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I MUCH prefer the Euro doberman look and working ability and I got more dog for my money, AND a healthier dog to boot.
Nothing to say about Sant Kreal but you do know that the "Euro Dobes are healthier than NA dobes" thing is a myth, right?
It's one of the things that crappy US Euro greeders and BYBs say to pull people in.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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What is the longevity in the pedigree? Dobes are a breed with a pretty signifcant split between show and working. That's not to say you can't try or have fun Just keep in mind.

Yikes, they seem to breed a lot!! They seem to breed only to their own dogs. I do not know these lines but these could be red flags.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Welcome to the forum.

7 in 2006
5 in 2007
7 in 2008
8 in 2009
6 in 2010
11 in 2011 (magic number?)
6 in 2012

That makes 50 litters in 7 years. Holy moley...That seems insane.

ETA: They must really like Zeus, seems popular among the ladies.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I hadn't heard of them but I like the look of their dogs. I don't know much about those pedigrees but may have to look into them some more.

They do breed a lot, but that seems the norm over there.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
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A couple of quick observations on the litter you are looking at:

The sire is almost 9, which I like, but his last cardio testing is from May 2010.
The dam just turned 2 in August and I see no cardio testing listed, and this may be due to her age.

I would be inquiring if that data is accurate, and I also would ask what exactly "Cardio Free" actually means.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Nothing to say about Sant Kreal but you do know that the "Euro Dobes are healthier than NA dobes" thing is a myth, right?
It's one of the things that crappy US Euro greeders and BYBs say to pull people in.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified-- the dog I previously imported (Rottweiler) was healthier than the dogs I had gotten here in the US and been burned by a couple US breeders. I do not think that dogs from any particular region are healthier, per se, than others, though I do think that countries (like Germany) that require working and conformation titles/evaluations and health testing prior to breeding do, in general, produce healthier stock, percentage-wise. There are simply way too many BYB and such here in the US who pump out litter after litter with no regard to health and that simply doesn't happen in Germany (and some other european countries) to the same extent due to their stricter breeding regulations.

Carey
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
What is the longevity in the pedigree? Dobes are a breed with a pretty signifcant split between show and working. That's not to say you can't try or have fun Just keep in mind.

Yikes, they seem to breed a lot!! They seem to breed only to their own dogs. I do not know these lines but these could be red flags.
The father is Tahi-Reme Gerett, MultiCH,ZTP,IPO3, HDA and the mother is Sergius-Aleksandrija Fabula, CH,IPO1,HDB. As you can see, neither are Sant Kreal dogs, however Fabula is a daughter of Sant Kreal Zeus. He is 9 and still producing.

Carey
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The father is Tahi-Reme Gerett, MultiCH,ZTP,IPO3, HDA and the mother is Sergius-Aleksandrija Fabula, CH,IPO1,HDB. As you can see, neither are Sant Kreal dogs, however Fabula is a daughter of Sant Kreal Zeus. He is 9 and still producing.

Carey
In general (maybe not this particular litter) they seem to use their own dogs and the same dogs. Maybe there is a reason, but often it is a red flag. Maybe they are also listing all litters by their stud dog on their own litter page too?? Zeus is listed a lot.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyssaN View Post
Welcome to the forum.

7 in 2006
5 in 2007
7 in 2008
8 in 2009
6 in 2010
11 in 2011 (magic number?)
6 in 2012

That makes 50 litters in 7 years. Holy moley...That seems insane.

ETA: They must really like Zeus, seems popular among the ladies.
Yes, I see that....but that doesn't really answer any of my questions. Prolific breeding in and of itself is not necessarily horrid-- she is doing lots of health testing and breeding champion and working titled dogs...more than I can say for so many American breeders.....Also, the puppy is less than $3000.00 WITH shipping from Russia and full AKC registration so I can show/work, etc.....and I have been unsuccessful in finding an American breeder of US dobes who can sell me a pup of the same quality with the same benefits for the same price. If you know of one, PLEASE point me in that direction! I am more than wiling to purchase a pup in the US, but I am NOT willing to pay $5000.00 for a puppy, that is absolutely insane. Whichever pup I get will be trained, worked, shown, socialized, exercised, loved, adored, and live as a beloved family member. My last Rottie was featured in several publication including People magazine for her service dog work. I am very, very involved with my dogs, they all live in the house (which is clean!) and enjoy a huge, privacy fenced, wooded back yard. I'll be honest-- I've been in this dog game a pretty long time....almost 3 decades...and I don't care to purchase a pup from someone with a 10 page contract that has a checklist of requirements for me to own my own dog that they also want to charge me $3000 or $4000 for. I completely get wanting to protect dogs== I used to be one of those people who sold my pups on mile long contracts (unenforceable, in most cases, I now realize)....then I grew up, lost the power trip, and realized that if I trust someone enough to take their money for a pup and send a pup into their home, I better trust them enough to do the right thing. Certainly, basic contracts to protect both buyer and seller are necessary...I"m talking about the complete control freaks that want to control everything from what the dog eats to where it poops, etc......
If someone wants to GIVE me a puppy and have a boatload of requirements, I'm completely game....but when I lay out several thousand dollars, I HAVE PURCHASED every right to that animal.
Don't get me wrong, I don't desire to do anything unethical or crazy....in 17 years in Rotties, I bred 7 litters total. In 12 years of Staffords I bred 2 litters total. I only bred titled, health cleared dogs and only when I wanted to keep something. I also have served as a National Rescue Chair for the SBT club, volunteered for rescue for Rotties, Chis, and other breeds, and served as Trophy Chair for the ARC Rottie Nationals, been a member of a couple breed clubs....my point is I'm active in the breeds I own, intelligent, experienced (worked in vet medicine for 24 years, now work in the legal field), and always have the breed's best interest at heart.....

Carey

Carey.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:50 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I completely agree with your last post Carey, and why I also bought my two from overseas. I'm also not going to do anything unethical or crazy, but when you pay that kind of money you want it to be YOURS and full rights. I understand people want to protect their dogs and lines. But it's not like that overseas. Sant Kreal is one of the ones I might get my next from. I really like the litter and female puppy you are looking at. Saw her on FB, but I need to wait a bit longer. The breeder asked many questions about my experience and what I'm looking for and why. She has another litter on the ground by Zues that is more expensive, she must have reduced price on these older puppies. And health wise, you won't find any better health tested dogs better than the US, but there's still no guarantee with that.


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Old 12-06-2012, 05:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Ha, it's funny that your username is workingk9 because we have a user here named workingk9s who is a well-respected breeder with Euro lines in the US. I would contact her, as well as user "Incredibledobe" .. they will not steer you wrong about Euro dobes in the US. If I remember correctly, Incredibledobe has a Tahi-Reme girl.

I will say one thing, I don't believe ANY line is "cardio free." Sure, some are better than others..

Edited to add: Here's Incredibledobe's website: http://www.incredibledobermans.com/

And workingk9s website: http://workingk9s.net/
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Also I don't think the GOOD Euro breeders in the US charge 5000 for a puppy. The norm I've seen is 2000-2500 and usually is with limited registration or co-ownership. Sant Kreal and pride of Russia are one of the more pricey Euro breeders overseas that I've found but still reasonable. The shipping is the expensive part!


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Old 12-06-2012, 06:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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They aren't saying their lines are cardio free just that the dog was cardio free as of the date of the last cardio testing. I would just inquire as to what the cardio testing consisted of be it holter only or holter and echo. I would also like to see it done on all breeding animals yearly at minimum. No guarantees but I like to see it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The norm I've seen is 2000-2500 and usually is with limited registration or co-ownership.
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This is what I have been seeing as well, and a 1.5 to 2 year wait list for the best breeders. Luckily that fits my time frame.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:10 PM   #16 (permalink)
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They aren't saying their lines are cardio free just that the dog was cardio free as of the date of the last cardio testing. I would just inquire as to what the cardio testing consisted of be it holter only or holter and echo. I would also like to see it done on all breeding animals yearly at minimum. No guarantees but I like to see it.
Ahh, gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

To add to that, yes I would ask about holters and echos AND the "DCM gene" test. That may not be popular in Europe yet but many breeders are doing it here.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Some more on your home soil:
BellLavoro Dobermans Where Working Dogs are Beautiful and Beautiful Dogs Work
Adlercrest Dobermanns
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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There's Cara in NY as well but you'll be waiting awhile.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I completely agree with your last post Carey, and why I also bought my two from overseas. I'm also not going to do anything unethical or crazy, but when you pay that kind of money you want it to be YOURS and full rights. I understand people want to protect their dogs and lines. But it's not like that overseas. Sant Kreal is one of the ones I might get my next from. I really like the litter and female puppy you are looking at. Saw her on FB, but I need to wait a bit longer. The breeder asked many questions about my experience and what I'm looking for and why. She has another litter on the ground by Zues that is more expensive, she must have reduced price on these older puppies. And health wise, you won't find any better health tested dogs better than the US, but there's still no guarantee with that.
Alli-- you get exactly what I was saying Yes, she's got a litter from Zeus on the ground that I was seriously considering, as well but she only has one black female still available and she was honest in telling me she can't evaluate them yet to tell me if they might be nicer than this pup I'm looking at. She also asked me about my experience, where the dog would live, what I plan to do with it, if I am willing to stay in touch with her, etc. I really think we will get the pup.

Carey in Ohio
PS-- do you show or do any performance events with your dobe? I'm in Ohio and show in Indiana, KY and sometimes MI, too
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:39 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Ahh, gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

To add to that, yes I would ask about holters and echos AND the "DCM gene" test. That may not be popular in Europe yet but many breeders are doing it here.
I know the father is DCM negative. -here's his list of titles/clearances: IDC Sieger'2006
International Champion
Russian, Ukraininan, Lithuanian, Polish Champion
All Ukrainian Winner'2006, Ukrainian Jun.Champion
Best working dog in the test (judge Pezzano)
Cardio free, PHTVL/PHPV, DNA DCM Negative
IPO-3, ZTP V1A, HD-A (Germany)

Mother:
Russian Champion
Moldavian Champion
RKF Champion
Cardio free, PHTVL/PHPV, vWD-clear
BH, IPO-1, HD-B (Germany)
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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You are very misinformed about so many things. I don't even know where to begin.

Actually, I don't have the energy. I'm sure the other members here will hit on the key points.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Someone else recommended Adlercrest but I just looked at their page and the litter they have on the ground is out of 2 parents without a single, solitary title except a BH on the bitch.....I want proven working lines. And I'm guessing they want at least $2000.00 for a pup. The pup I am looking at is about $2500, FCI reg (full AKC), both parents and ALL grandparents AND great grandparents have at least an IPO I at a minimum.....I have been unable to find a comparable litter in the US that combines reasonable price, full registration, full ownership, all parents/grandparents/great grandparents working titled and champion titled, health clearanced, etc...


Carey
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:45 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I just checked out Bellavoro and don't care *at all* for the sire of their current litter..he's just way too coarse. I like the bitch, though.

Carey
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:46 PM   #24 (permalink)
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You are very misinformed about so many things. I don't even know where to begin.

Actually, I don't have the energy. I'm sure the other members here will hit on the key points.
Wow. That was really helpful. Thanks so much.

Carey
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:51 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Wow. That was really helpful. Thanks so much.

Carey
PM me a phone number and I will be happy to chat you up one side and down the other. I just realized I am not in the mood for lengthy back and forth typing trying to cover all of your incorrect stereotypes.
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