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Old 12-07-2012, 12:15 PM   #51 (permalink)
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To be honest, I also slightly bristled at a few things you said about US dogs and breeders - maybe you didn't mean them in a derogatory way, but it certainly could have been taken that way. But keep in mind its all about how you interpret things. Its especially hard on an internet forum when all we have is text and emotes. Just try to keep an open mind, is all I'm saying
Workingk9, same here, what Burns said.

I'm one of the least to get feeling "attacked" or "offended" about comments on NA dogs, esp. as I really have never had a dog in the fight, always having had rescued Dobermans of unknown lineage.

But, I see where folks could certainly have "heard" a sort of "tone" in some of your posts--and it's a tone that too often gets posted on Doberman forums, and hence sort of becomes a hot button.

Since this is a new breed to you, you probably didn't know that, just saying.

I actually agree with some of the things you've posted, but I also agree you seem to be misguided on other things.

For example, that DCM genetic marker test so should not be interpreted the way you seem to be interpreting it. You really need to be looking at results of holters and echos, and COD thru-out the pedigree.

As for JulieW, she's pretty straightforward, yeah, but I tend to appreciate that in a human. I don't like wading thru nicey-nice stuff to try to figure out what the real truth is, or where things stand, or what the subtext is.

She's got a lot of knowledge, doesn't know you, yet still offered to take time out of her busy day and share information with a stranger, by phone. That seems fairly generous to me. <shrug>
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:35 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by workingk9 View Post
The countries who REQUIRE titles/health tests -IN MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE--produce better quality dogs
I think you will find, if you care to look, that the breeders in countries that require minimal health testing DO minimal health testing. They do what is required, and not much more.

It's kind of ironic, to me at least, that some European countries require hip and eye certifications and that's it, and that's what the breeders do because they have to. While in north America, it's not unusual to find the quality breeders doing hips AND elbows, eyes, thyroid, cardiac (echos, Holter AND PDK4 gene test), vWD, CBC, liver and kidney panels and sometimes the DNA colour testing to boot. And we do it because we want to, because we think it's good for the breed, not because some organization tells us we have to.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:15 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I just want to say... I thought for a moment that this could have been a thread that I started in 2007 or something. Obviously, not me.

OP, I don't know anything about Sant Kreal themselves, but Euros are just as unhealthy as the NA dogs. I prefer Euro show and work for myself though.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:40 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingk9 View Post
.....I want proven working lines.

Carey
Then why look at Sant Kreal, which is 100% showlines
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Originally Posted by workingk9 View Post
I'm not interested in AKC showing, but the UDC, ADA, UKC, any sieger shows, etc, Carey
The UDC only has a few shows a year , none are near you, the ADA has not had a showin years ,since the UDC clubs started doing ZTPs, the UKC does not hold much merit amoung USA breeders, although better than the IABCA , what sieger shows are you talking about? As far as an AKC title on a euro dog , sure it can be done, for lots of money and a pro handler.(every akc judge that has seen my CH Sant Kreal Soldier, says he can get a AKC CH title!!!


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There is also a DT member, Feverhaus, who has Sant Kreal bred dogs. Perhaps you could PM him.
i sent her my # if she would like to talk

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Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
As far as health issues a good North American breeder will likely have done far more health testing than its' European counterpart. Not that I would want one, but that is the truth.
Thats BS... a good breeder does all health testing , no mater what country they are from. I know breeders here in the USA (that the click here in the forum always recommends) that a popular dog failed the ofa hips , but studded him out anyhow, not to mention that their dogs spend their lives in a kennel, another breeders bitch failed her cardio, but they breed her anyhow (having to put the pick of her litter down due to health issues) Ill bet that there are more breeders here in the USA that do no testing at all , compared to all of europe
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Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
There isn't a thing wrong with having a preference for a particular look and you should of course get what appeals to you. But "AND a healthier dog to boot"? That is stated as a solid fact. Like I said, you are seriously misinformed.




Your knowledge of show quality is also seriously lacking. Not only are working line (or even almost all euro show line dogs) unable to attain an American championship, but euro actual working line dogs wouldn't be able to attain a championship in their OWN country. They aren't competitive in the show ring.



I don't put a lot of stock at all in working titles that euro show line dogs have. Why? Because I know a prolific GSD breeder that breeds euro line dogs here that she touts as being exactly what you are looking for. They have euro style show titles and working titles. But to get those working titles she has to send each and every one of her breeding stock dogs to Germany to GET them titled. Why? Because she knows people there that can slap a title on absolutely ANYTHING in record time. I have yet to see one of her dogs that has a solid temperament, they are what most people would refer to as complete fruitcakes. They are scared of their own shadow. But she can send them there and they always title. The REASON euro show dogs are titled is because they HAVE to be, it really doesn't matter if they are really any GOOD at it. I'm not saying that all of their show dogs are crap working dogs, titled or not. I'm sure some of them are fine, but to blindly put faith in a title without having any knowledge at all of how that dog actually works is foolish.
That happens here in the USA also , theres plenty of IPO dogs including 2, IPO3 dobermanns(that I know of) , that could not pass a trial off their home field,


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I think you will find, if you care to look, that the breeders in countries that require minimal health testing DO minimal health testing. They do what is required, and not much more.

It's kind of ironic, to me at least, that some European countries require hip and eye certifications and that's it, and that's what the breeders do because they have to. While in north America, it's not unusual to find the quality breeders doing hips AND elbows, eyes, thyroid, cardiac (echos, Holter AND PDK4 gene test), vWD, CBC, liver and kidney panels and sometimes the DNA colour testing to boot. And we do it because we want to, because we think it's good for the breed, not because some organization tells us we have to.
so your saying that breeders in europe just dont have the same compasion for the breed then good ole amerika the USA has more breeders that do NO testing or titling than all of europe combined

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Old 12-08-2012, 08:21 AM   #55 (permalink)
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That happens here in the USA also , theres plenty of IPO dogs including 2, IPO3 dobermanns(that I know of) , that could not pass a trial off their home field
That is absolutely true. My point was exactly that, that just because a dog has a title doesn't necessarily mean it's a good working dog. The specific dogs I was referring to could not only not pass a TRIAL on their home field, they couldn't even complete the exercises successfully in TRAINING on their home field that they trained on twice a week. Yet I saw with my own eyes where they were shipped off, titled abroad, and when they came back they still couldn't work even at training on their home field. Literally wouldn't even engage.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #56 (permalink)
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[quote=Feverhaus;1203750]

Thats BS... a good breeder does all health testing , no mater what country they are from. I know breeders here in the USA (that the click here in the forum always recommends) that a popular dog failed the ofa hips , but studded him out anyhow, not to mention that their dogs spend their lives in a kennel, another breeders bitch failed her cardio, but they breed her anyhow (having to put the pick of her litter down due to health issues) Ill bet that there are more breeders here in the USA that do no testing at all , compared to all of europe [/u][/b],

I would have to disagree. And I am not into NA lines whatsover. Sure you can find breeders here who do not do enough health testing or breed dogs that should not be bred. And there certainly are breeders in Europe who do a lot of health testing. However I was speaking on averages and in general terms I still believe that health testing is done more extensively here. When I was in Germany a few years back I had a long conversation regarding this with Elaine Galonska-Brown. She knows as much or more about Doberman lines and culture here and overseas as anyone I have ever met. She flatly stated that this was the case. Many German breeders only do the minimum required amount of testing and choose to stick their heads in the sand about it. Eastern Europe, even less testing on average. Of course if you were to take BYB'ers and commercial puppy mills into account that would swing it the other way, but as far as serious consideration for finding a well bred dog, they are off the table anyway.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:38 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
As far as health issues a good North American breeder will likely have done far more health testing than its' European counterpart. Not that I would want one, but that is the truth.
[quote=Rosamburg;1203815]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feverhaus View Post

Thats BS... a good breeder does all health testing , no mater what country they are from. I know breeders here in the USA (that the click here in the forum always recommends) that a popular dog failed the ofa hips , but studded him out anyhow, not to mention that their dogs spend their lives in a kennel, another breeders bitch failed her cardio, but they breed her anyhow (having to put the pick of her litter down due to health issues) Ill bet that there are more breeders here in the USA that do no testing at all , compared to all of europe [/u][/b],

I would have to disagree. And I am not into NA lines whatsover. Sure you can find breeders here who do not do enough health testing or breed dogs that should not be bred. And there certainly are breeders in Europe who do a lot of health testing. However I was speaking on averages and in general terms I still believe that health testing is done more extensively here. When I was in Germany a few years back I had a long conversation regarding this with Elaine Galonska-Brown. She knows as much or more about Doberman lines and culture here and overseas as anyone I have ever met. She flatly stated that this was the case. Many German breeders only do the minimum required amount of testing and choose to stick their heads in the sand about it. Eastern Europe, even less testing on average. Of course if you were to take BYB'ers and commercial puppy mills into account that would swing it the other way, but as far as serious consideration for finding a well bred dog, they are off the table anyway.
of coarse were taking BYBs in consideration, your comparing ALL N.A. breeders with ALL Europes breeders. BYBs ARE breeders here in N.A. ...good or not they are breeders, and thats what you compared.As far as you experience in Germany,,, the minimun there,is still better than nothing here in N.A., and a lot more than MOST N.A. breeders that do NOTHING AT ALL.... and Germany is a only a small part of europe.

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Old 12-08-2012, 12:46 PM   #58 (permalink)
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[quote=Feverhaus;1203830]
Quote:

of coarse were taking BYBs in consideration, your comparing ALL N.A. breeders with ALL Europes breeders. BYBs ARE breeders here in N.A. ...good or not they are breeders, and thats what you compared.As far as you experience in Germany,,, the minimun there,is still better than nothing here in N.A., and a lot more than MOST N.A. breeders that do NOTHING AT ALL.... and Germany is a only a small part of europe.
I don't see how you can count byb as no serious person on this forum would buy from a byb.

We are talking serious buyers from serious breeders...at least that was my take on the conversation.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:09 PM   #59 (permalink)
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[quote=Feverhaus;1203830]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post

of coarse were taking BYBs in consideration, your comparing ALL N.A. breeders with ALL Europes breeders. BYBs ARE breeders here in N.A. ...good or not they are breeders, and thats what you compared.As far as you experience in Germany,,, the minimun there,is still better than nothing here in N.A., and a lot more than MOST N.A. breeders that do NOTHING AT ALL.... and Germany is a only a small part of europe.
No I said "Good Breeders" in North America. That takes the puppy millers and byb'ers off the table. There are breeders in Europe that I would consider "good breeders" who do not do as much health testing as I would prefer. It is just a bit different culture in regards to that. It was just a minor misunderstanding of what I said and I could see where you would take it differently.

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Old 12-08-2012, 02:37 PM   #60 (permalink)
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No I said "Good Breeders" in North America. That takes the puppy millers and byb'ers off the table. There are breeders in Europe that I would consider "good breeders" who do not do as much health testing as I would prefer. It is just a bit different culture in regards to that. It was just a minor misunderstanding of what I said and I could see where you would take it differently.
If theres so many GOOD breeders in NA, that do all health testing, then where the hell are all the unhealth tested breedings comming from????????????????. Face it, even if its just hips thats REQUIRED in europe, its still twice the testing thats required here

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Old 12-08-2012, 03:19 PM   #61 (permalink)
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]
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Originally Posted by LindaH View Post

I don't see how you can count byb as no serious person on this forum would buy from a byb.

We are talking serious buyers from serious breeders...at least that was my take on the conversation.
Serious - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
defnition of*SERIOUS

1:*thoughtful or subdued in appearance or manner*:*sober*<a quiet,*serious*girl>2a*:*requiring much thought or work*<serious*study>b*:*of or relating to a matter of importance*<a*seriousplay>3a*:*not joking or trifling*:*being in earnest*<a*seriousquestion>b*archaic*:*piousc*:*de eply interested*:*devoted*<a*serious*musician>4a*:*not easily answered or solved*<serious*objections>b*:*having important or dangerous possible consequences*<a*serious*injury>5:*excessive or impressive in quality, quantity, extent, or degree*<serious*stereo equipment>*<making*seriousmoney>*<serious*drinking >

According to the meaning of serious

Most of the serious people in here HAVE bought from BYBS.....

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Old 12-08-2012, 06:53 PM   #62 (permalink)
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If theres so many GOOD breeders in NA, that do all health testing, then where the hell are all the unhealth tested breedings comming from????????????????. Face it, even if its just hips thats REQUIRED in europe, its still twice the testing thats required here
These days it would be from Byb'ers and commercial breeders who are the primary culprits as far as lack of health testing in N. America. Let's face it compared to the Rottweiler and GSD breed hip issues in Doberman's are not a huge problem. And yes there is a minimum amount of ANYTHING required to breed and register a dog in North America. I did not say I agree with that but that is the way it is.

As far as Germany being a small part of Europe, that is true but the Dobermann Verein, whether we agree with them or not, sets the standard of for most of Europe as far as the Doberman breed.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feverhaus View Post
]
Serious - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
defnition of*SERIOUS

1:*thoughtful or subdued in appearance or manner*:*sober*<a quiet,*serious*girl>2a*:*requiring much thought or work*<serious*study>b*:*of or relating to a matter of importance*<a*seriousplay>3a*:*not joking or trifling*:*being in earnest*<a*seriousquestion>b*archaic*:*piousc*:*de eply interested*:*devoted*<a*serious*musician>4a*:*not easily answered or solved*<serious*objections>b*:*having important or dangerous possible consequences*<a*serious*injury>5:*excessive or impressive in quality, quantity, extent, or degree*<serious*stereo equipment>*<making*seriousmoney>*<serious*drinking >

According to the meaning of serious

Most of the serious people in here HAVE bought from BYBS.....

Sigh...
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Old 04-23-2015, 11:21 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Carey,

I came across your posts simply researching Sant Kreal's dogs. Curious what people say. I own one from Zeus and Yurmala and I'm just wondering how did you end up? Did you get to buy that puppy?
I'm no breeder but just an owner who shows my dog and enjoying Dobermans in general. I love Sant Kreal dogs and their quality as a working dog and as a show dog are great. Not to mention Elena is wonderful with help and cares for her pups. I can trust her judgment and know my pup is healthy.
As of American dobermans vs Euro. I noticed american dobes became more of a decorative dog hardly resembling anything that Mr. Doberman tried to evolve. Not only most of them look like Whippets they also lack temperament and hardly can pass IPO. Again I'm not saying all of them like that but majority. Though there are many wonderful US breeders with wonderful dogs and those breeders are trying to bring euro lines here to resurrect image of Doberman that suppose to be. As of Euro Dobes. I think american breeders should consider bringing that bone which they lost here, head, color and temperament to the US. For the money you purchase a dog from Europe you get more of a dog. As of AKC shows. Somebody posted it will be hard to win with Euro. Yes and No. AKC is all about politics. Promoting owner handlers showing own dogs is all bunch of crap. If you get a respectful handler you can win AKC. It's all about budget I suppose as those handlers are expensive. Some handlers can win with limping dogs and dogs that has nothing even close to the AKC standard and yet they win.

I'm so pleased with my dog that has an amazing Temperament and his IPO trainer is really having fun with him as he really enjoys his working drive which he said Am dobes lack. Euro dogs are smart. They need special approach. They are not poodles that will die for the treat. Mine needs trust first. Then he will show what he is all about. To me, though we are half way to championship so far, AKC titles isn't that important. Shows are fun and I love it as a sport not to mention compliments on my boy from crowd on his looks as he stands out among others. And I really don't care if a "whippet" like dog wins. Cause I know it's not about the dog. It's about mentality of judges that stick with what they used to know and politics with handlers.

And I'm planning to purchase a baby girl from Elena this year as I just want to have a working good dog that I can do so many things with. Not to mention sant Kreals to me are the best kennel I know from Russia.

I hope you enjoy your sant Kreal as well if you ended
Up buying one.

Regards.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:17 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Europe has a lot of politics too. Lots of dobermans running around with IPO titles, talk to people who know the dog/seen him work and wouldn't you have it he is really a coward on the field, trialing only on the same field and with the same helper he worked with his entire life.

Glass houses and all that. Europe is not the be all end all of dobermans and some very hard working breeders here are working on a true doberman. Not black and tan whippets!!!
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:30 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I agree. There is no perfect place where everything is perfect. And I absolutely agree that there are many breeders here in the US that are, indeed, working hard to develop good Dobermans. This all is a personal like I guess who likes what lines and standards. And there are many good looking Dobes here in the US and many in Europe as well. But we definitely don't need any "whippets" in Doberman rings.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:32 PM   #67 (permalink)
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And I have to say: Politics are everywhere. There wouldn't be any shows without this damn politics
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:34 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I absolutely agree with you. There is no perfect place with perfect dogs. There are many good looking Dobes here in the US and you were right. AM breeders indeed working hard to bring bone and head and under jaw to am Dobes lines. And politics. Well there wouldn't be shows without politics neither here nor in Europe.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:37 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmetal View Post
Europe has a lot of politics too. Lots of dobermans running around with IPO titles, talk to people who know the dog/seen him work and wouldn't you have it he is really a coward on the field, trialing only on the same field and with the same helper he worked with his entire life.

Glass houses and all that. Europe is not the be all end all of dobermans and some very hard working breeders here are working on a true doberman. Not black and tan whippets!!!
I keep replying but its doesn't show up. So my already third reply is shorter then original. LOL. But you were right. There are many breeders here who works indeed hard to bring bone, head and under jaw to Am Dobes. Many good looking Dobes here too. Its probably a preference. Europe isn't a paradise either. And just like everywhere politics would be present everywhere. Hence, there wouldn't be any shows without it
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:40 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I keep replying and nothing is getting posted. So what I wanted to say is that I agree with you. There are many breeders here in the US who indeed work hard to work on that doberman that is suppose to be. I believe it's just a personal preference on either a person likes European look or American. There is no perfect place for that. And as of politics. It's true also. There wouldn't be a show without them be that in the US or Europe.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:15 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I think your comments are kind of rude, although I don't think you meant them that way. You need some lessons on sales. You don't "sell" something by making rude comments about your competitor but by promoting your product and why YOU believe in it. It's great that you like Euro's and many people do. I like them I just actually prefer the Red American over the brown Euro, like anything it's just a personal preference I still think they are magnificent dogs for the right people. Also, here's a link to some of the original Dobermans and I personally believe that they resemble the American lines much more than the Euro lines.

history of doberman pinscher - Bing Images

and another
Doberman Pinscher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Welcome from CO as well, and I think you could benefit a lot by staying on here and reading some more. There's so much to learn about these beautiful animals it's crazy!
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:22 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I'm not really sure either side of the pond has dogs that look like Herr Dobermann's dogs anymore, and I think that's a GOOD thing.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:33 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I just found this little gem on a German breeders website. Kind of cool, I've never seen this many pictures together

Origins / History of the Dobermann Breed
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:45 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Carey,

I came across your posts simply researching Sant Kreal's dogs. Curious what people say. I own one from Zeus and Yurmala and I'm just wondering how did you end up? Did you get to buy that puppy?
I doubt you'll get an answer without PMing them. Their last post was in December of 2012. Matter of fact, this might have even been the only thread they participated in.
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Last edited by Rosemary; 04-23-2015 at 03:03 PM..
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Old 04-23-2015, 04:35 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Thank you all for those wonderful links. In no way I tried to be rude. Like I said there are many pretty american dobes here and I believe some people agree we need to add some bone and under jaw to our lines in the United States.
And yeah I'm happy that nowdays Dobes don't have the same look as Mr Dobermann had.
I'm new to this website so truly hardly figured out even how to respond.
And to be honest I'm not trying to promote anyone just noticed that post that got my attention. Like one of you said its a personal opinion here. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings.
Interesting you mentioned red am bitch. I'm actually waiting for dark brown Dobe bitch puppy. I love black personally but them dark brown ones got my eye.

And to summarize. Every dog regardless of how it looks is a champ in owners heart. Some like more elegant dogs some like more working look type of dog. but thanks for those links. Very helpful.
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