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Old 12-06-2012, 06:52 PM   #26 (permalink)
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You are very misinformed about so many things. I don't even know where to begin.

Actually, I don't have the energy. I'm sure the other members here will hit on the key points.
and this, ^^^^^, my friends, is why I'm looking at European breeders for a pup. I come here for help, for true feedback and guidance and I get a rude, dismissive and thoroughly unhelpful post such as this. And the American breeders wonder why so many new Dobie breeders go the way of importing dogs.....seems you have a thing or two to learn about tact. Thank God you aren't the only Doberman breeder and there are others who care to help guide and inform new owners.

Carey
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:57 PM   #27 (permalink)
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PM me a phone number and I will be happy to chat you up one side and down the other. I just realized I am not in the mood for lengthy back and forth typing trying to cover all of your incorrect stereotypes.
Where did I post any stereotypes at all?? I simply listed MY experiences with several dogs. That is all. And I said "in general".....seems like many people in the US like to stereotype Euro dogs and vice versa....but I haven't said anything stereotypical. Please re-read my posts.

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Old 12-06-2012, 06:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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A lot depends on your goals, your prioities and just how serious you are. There is a lot more difference in body type between American and European Dobermans than in Rottweilers. Most European Dobermans are not competitive in the AKC show ring, but a few have finished their AKC championships. Unfortunately, even if the Russian breeder seriously wants to sell you a show dog, they have no frame of reference for what is competitive in the US.

I have seen this litter mentioned and I think it is a solid pedigree. Like most, it has a mix of long lived and not so long lived dogs. I usually find the ethical standards of some of the Russian breeders to be lacking, but I do think Elena does breed some nice dogs.

There are some nice litters bred in the US if you look around. Depending on your priorities, we hopefully have one on the way bred from some international top producers.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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and this, ^^^^^, my friends, is why I'm looking at European breeders for a pup. I come here for help, for true feedback and guidance and I get a rude, dismissive and thoroughly unhelpful post such as this. And the American breeders wonder why so many new Dobie breeders go the way of importing dogs.....seems you have a thing or two to learn about tact. Thank God you aren't the only Doberman breeder and there are others who care to help guide and inform new owners.

Carey
Read further Carey. I offered to have a PHONE conversation with you. Now, tonight. How is that being dismissive? Try wiping that chip off your shoulder. I'm not the one insulting an entire country's doberman breeders.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #30 (permalink)
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There is also a DT member, Feverhaus, who has Sant Kreal bred dogs. Perhaps you could PM him.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:53 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Carey-

Our pups are still young. The male is my baby and training partner and the female is my fiance's. Ole is 5.5 months and Tali is 6 months. We plan to show in the Euro style shows such as UDC and maybe UKC if they turn out nice as we are hoping. Our main focus is working. I'm actually a GSD person and did SAR with my past dogs and owned one male Dobe pet that was my best buddy. I wanted another working partner and inside pet/family member and Brandon is incredibly OCD and I knew he couldn't handle GSD hair inside! Lol. My main focus is IPO, hopefully agility and HRD SAR work. My fiancÚ is IPO and trying to find dock diving places. We joined a Dobe Training group in Louisville, KY but they don't get a chance to train much together at least during winter, was going to look at clubs in OH in Cincinnati. Kind of like you I want to do all kinds of things!

I'm in New Harmony IN which is close to Evansville, Indiana if you know where that is? Are you near Cincinnati or Columbus? My dogs are from Del Nasi and Betelges.

Kansa Dobermans would be one of my top pick to get a puppy from in US. I'm sure whatever litter he has coming will be amazing.

I figure in the future once I prove myself to everyone that I can train and title a Doberman and not become a BYB when it would be pretty easy to do so, maybe that's when I can find a US breeder to sell me a top prospect and offer mentorship. Aldercrest wouldn't even consider me when I told them I've never titled a Doberman or owned a European lined Doberman, yet I've trained and Nationally certified multiple GSDs in multiple areas of SAR that were Euro lines. Plus like you noticed their dogs were NOT titled that were being bred. That experience and the way they came across through email is why I stopped contacting US breeders and went overseas. I'd like another dog in the spring to train, as my love and hobby are my dogs and I'm a little bored only training one dog when I've always had two to train, but do you think many US breeders will consider me? Nope probably not, despite the fact most breeders own and train multiple dogs.


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Old 12-07-2012, 01:53 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Sant Kreal are Euro show lines. Even though there may be some working titles this does not mean they are working lines. My first bitch that I worked was from Russia. She was a good dog, though she ended up having many health issues not the least of which was DCM. However I would be the first to say that she is nothing like a working line Dobermann as far as temperament. As far as health issues a good North American breeder will likely have done far more health testing than its' European counterpart. Not that I would want one, but that is the truth.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:29 AM   #33 (permalink)
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You know what you want, you found what you want, it's in your price range, beautiful and health cleared dogs, all generations titled, you talked to the breeder and liked what you heard, go for it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:52 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
A lot depends on your goals, your prioities and just how serious you are. There is a lot more difference in body type between American and European Dobermans than in Rottweilers. Most European Dobermans are not competitive in the AKC show ring, but a few have finished their AKC championships. Unfortunately, even if the Russian breeder seriously wants to sell you a show dog, they have no frame of reference for what is competitive in the US.

I have seen this litter mentioned and I think it is a solid pedigree. Like most, it has a mix of long lived and not so long lived dogs. I usually find the ethical standards of some of the Russian breeders to be lacking, but I do think Elena does breed some nice dogs.

There are some nice litters bred in the US if you look around. Depending on your priorities, we hopefully have one on the way bred from some international top producers.
Thank you so much for this. I am not at all interested in showing AKC. I am interested in sieger shows, UKC, competitive obedience, and schutzhund. I see the differences in the Am. and Euro dobes and my husband and I much prefer the euro "look", perhaps because we come from a working Rottie background

I've talked to Elena more...and am going to post something in the health section as I just have a few questions in regards to getting the healthiest pup I can. For instance, father is vwd carrier, mother negative. Mother is DCM postive hetero, father is DCM negative. Are my chances of getting a healthy pup good with each parent being a carrier of something?

A little background-- I got seriously burnt by a cane corso breeder-- did NOT do my homework and purchased a puppy from the Breed Club's VP. Contract and the whole 9 yards. At 8 months, pup is diagnosed with grade 4 *severe* HD. Breeder says "sue me"....found out the sire had HD and he was breeding him anyway and telling everyone he was "HD CLEAR"....so now I have a 115 pound 18 month old dog who has trouble walking. I purchased him to be my jogging companion, hiking companion, and competitive obedience dog and now he can do none of those things. yes, we love him very much! BUT, I still need a dog for those activities and do not- NOT- want to buy a pup who is likely to have problems again. That is why I am asking SO many questions and being every so cautious.

Carey
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:54 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Read further Carey. I offered to have a PHONE conversation with you. Now, tonight. How is that being dismissive? Try wiping that chip off your shoulder. I'm not the one insulting an entire country's doberman breeders.
I apologize- I went to bed immediatly after my last post last night and did not see your other post until just now. Please tell me-- show me?-- where I have insulted an entire country's breeders, and which country? I am honestly confused. Perhaps...because I simply prefer euro dobes, you have American ones and are, therefore, offended because of my personal preference?

carey
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:58 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Sant Kreal are Euro show lines. Even though there may be some working titles this does not mean they are working lines. My first bitch that I worked was from Russia. She was a good dog, though she ended up having many health issues not the least of which was DCM. However I would be the first to say that she is nothing like a working line Dobermann as far as temperament. As far as health issues a good North American breeder will likely have done far more health testing than its' European counterpart. Not that I would want one, but that is the truth.
This is good to hear, actually. I do want a working dog, but not a very hard or sharp dog. I will not be doing upper level protection training, but do want to be very competitive in obedience and sieger shows.

Can you tell me-- is it ok to breed a DCM positive hetero dog to a DCM negative dog and what are the chances of the pups being affected? If this is a stupid question, I apologize as I am completely new to this and just learning.
Thanks,

Carey
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:22 AM   #37 (permalink)
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May I ask what "DCM negative" means to you as far as cardio? Asking not judging Edited to add: Just saw your post above with the question. I would do a lot more research on this DCM "gene". It is one tiny piece of information in the giant pie of info for cardio. It doesn't really predict whether or not a dog will get cardio.

I also would ask what the sire of the Bellavro litter may have produced. If I were looking for a puppy I'd look not only at the sire/dam but what they have produced. Nothing wrong with personal perferences (i.e. he seems to coarse for you) but does he produce it? I have a Vizsla male on the opposite side of the spectrum. he could use a tad more bone (he isn't fine by any means but could use more)...however he is producing more so far.

DCM info for you:
http://trinitydobermans.com/WSU_DCM_DNA_TEST.html
According to Dr. Meurs, having a test result of Positive (either Heterozygous or Homozygous) is NOT predictive of "when" or even "If" your dog will get DCM - heart disease because of the varied penetrance of the mutated gene. Dr. Meurs did state that dogs that tested Pos-Homo did "appear" to manifest DCM earlier and have much worse symptoms once DCM was clinically apparent. Conversely, she also stated that dogs that came back Negative could not be guaranteed that they would NEVER get DCM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:30 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I MUCH prefer the Euro doberman look and working ability and I got more dog for my money, AND a healthier dog to boot.
There isn't a thing wrong with having a preference for a particular look and you should of course get what appeals to you. But "AND a healthier dog to boot"? That is stated as a solid fact. Like I said, you are seriously misinformed.


Quote:
what should a person expect to pay for a show quality bitch from such a line--
Your knowledge of show quality is also seriously lacking. Not only are working line (or even almost all euro show line dogs) unable to attain an American championship, but euro actual working line dogs wouldn't be able to attain a championship in their OWN country. They aren't competitive in the show ring.

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I'm sorry, I should have clarified-- the dog I previously imported (Rottweiler) was healthier than the dogs I had gotten here in the US and been burned by a couple US breeders. I do not think that dogs from any particular region are healthier, per se, than others, though I do think that countries (like Germany) that require working and conformation titles/evaluations and health testing prior to breeding do, in general, produce healthier stock, percentage-wise. There are simply way too many BYB and such here in the US who pump out litter after litter with no regard to health and that simply doesn't happen in Germany (and some other european countries) to the same extent due to their stricter breeding regulations.

Carey
And how is this not insulting to American breeders? You can sit there all wide-eyed and innocent and claim otherwise, but you quite clearly implied that American breeders seriously lack in ethics and breeding practices. There are backyard breeders everywhere, in every country. This country doesn't have a corner on that. What you are interested in is a puppy from a good breeder, so why are byb's even on your radar for comparison?

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she is doing lots of health testing and breeding champion and working titled dogs...more than I can say for so many American breeders.....
Sure, that's not in the least bit directly insulting.

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And the American breeders wonder why so many new Dobie breeders go the way of importing dogs.....seems you have a thing or two to learn about tact. Thank God you aren't the only Doberman breeder and there are others who care to help guide and inform new owners.
Again, you can sit there all wide-eyed and innocent, but you quite clearly imply that because you get a direct, blunt answer to your uninformed insulting BS that all American breeders are tactless. No, it's just ME, and I'm not a breeder TYVM.

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Where did I post any stereotypes at all??
HUGE eyeroll.

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I've talked to Elena more...and am going to post something in the health section as I just have a few questions in regards to getting the healthiest pup I can. For instance, father is vwd carrier, mother negative. Mother is DCM postive hetero, father is DCM negative. Are my chances of getting a healthy pup good with each parent being a carrier of something?
The DCM testing you are referring to actually doesn't have much to do at all with whether a dog will develop DCM or not. There are plenty of dogs that are negative for that gene that die of DCM and plenty of dogs that are positive for it that don't have DCM and remain perfectly healthy. The test isn't a test of the animals heart health.

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This is good to hear, actually. I do want a working dog, but not a very hard or sharp dog. I will not be doing upper level protection training, but do want to be very competitive in obedience and sieger shows.
You are looking at euro show line dogs, not euro working dogs. The things you say you want completely contradict each other. To be perfectly honest I don't put a lot of stock at all in working titles that euro show line dogs have. Why? Because I know a prolific GSD breeder that breeds euro line dogs here that she touts as being exactly what you are looking for. They have euro style show titles and working titles. But to get those working titles she has to send each and every one of her breeding stock dogs to Germany to GET them titled. Why? Because she knows people there that can slap a title on absolutely ANYTHING in record time. I have yet to see one of her dogs that has a solid temperament, they are what most people would refer to as complete fruitcakes. They are scared of their own shadow. But she can send them there and they always title. The REASON euro show dogs are titled is because they HAVE to be, it really doesn't matter if they are really any GOOD at it. I'm not saying that all of their show dogs are crap working dogs, titled or not. I'm sure some of them are fine, but to blindly put faith in a title without having any knowledge at all of how that dog actually works is foolish.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:40 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I know nothing about euro lines or american lines. I do know a bit about genetics.

VWD + heterozygote- In humans this would mean that they are susceptible to the disease it only takes a single copy to have the symptoms and complications. There are a number of factors that go into determining how severe the vWD would be and whether it would manifest at all but that gets sorta complicated to write here. I don't know about dogs but I would assume the same thing. It would mean your dog would have a 50% chance of having reduced clotting factors circulating in it's blood. The background of the dam would not affect your chances of this.

Your pup would have a 50% chance of being a VWD+ heterozygous animal.

For DCM+ heterozygote again your dog would have a 50% chance of acquiring this gene and being DCM+ heterozygous. I don't know whether DCM is a dominant (meaning only one copy is necessary) or recessive (two copies necessary) for the trait to arise and I don't know how penetrant the trait is either. Penetrant means how often do individuals who have the predisposition to a trait (i.e. the genes) get the disease.

Now when you cross the vVDD dog with aVVdD dog (this is how we write it when we want to do a quick and dirty test wheter v =vWD+ and d=DCM+

You get the following percentages
25% of the time you would get a vWD+ AND DCM+ heterozygote dog.
25% of the time you would get a dog with no vWD+ or DCM+.
50% of the time you would get a dog with either a vWD+ OR a DCM+ heterozygote.

I would not knowing buy an animal like this.
I would not buy an animal that had a 25% chance of having BOTH traits and only a 25% chance of having neither (which is what your puppy would have.)
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:47 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AlliDobie View Post
Carey-

Our pups are still young. The male is my baby and training partner and the female is my fiance's. Ole is 5.5 months and Tali is 6 months. We plan to show in the Euro style shows such as UDC and maybe UKC if they turn out nice as we are hoping. Our main focus is working. I'm actually a GSD person and did SAR with my past dogs and owned one male Dobe pet that was my best buddy. I wanted another working partner and inside pet/family member and Brandon is incredibly OCD and I knew he couldn't handle GSD hair inside! Lol. My main focus is IPO, hopefully agility and HRD SAR work. My fiancÚ is IPO and trying to find dock diving places. We joined a Dobe Training group in Louisville, KY but they don't get a chance to train much together at least during winter, was going to look at clubs in OH in Cincinnati. Kind of like you I want to do all kinds of things!

I'm in New Harmony IN which is close to Evansville, Indiana if you know where that is? Are you near Cincinnati or Columbus? My dogs are from Del Nasi and Betelges.

Kansa Dobermans would be one of my top pick to get a puppy from in US. I'm sure whatever litter he has coming will be amazing.

I figure in the future once I prove myself to everyone that I can train and title a Doberman and not become a BYB when it would be pretty easy to do so, maybe that's when I can find a US breeder to sell me a top prospect and offer mentorship. Aldercrest wouldn't even consider me when I told them I've never titled a Doberman or owned a European lined Doberman, yet I've trained and Nationally certified multiple GSDs in multiple areas of SAR that were Euro lines. Plus like you noticed their dogs were NOT titled that were being bred. That experience and the way they came across through email is why I stopped contacting US breeders and went overseas. I'd like another dog in the spring to train, as my love and hobby are my dogs and I'm a little bored only training one dog when I've always had two to train, but do you think many US breeders will consider me? Nope probably not, despite the fact most breeders own and train multiple dogs.


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Alli, I'd love to stay in touch with you-- please find me on facebook- my email is workingk9@aol.com -- I'm not interested in AKC showing, but the UDC, ADA, UKC, any sieger shows, etc, I'm very interested in. Maybe we could meet up at a show or performance event once I get my pup. I am awaiting Elena's reply if Cantana is still available. Then I will wire the money today if so. I am very excited.

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Old 12-07-2012, 09:53 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
I know nothing about euro lines or american lines. I do know a bit about genetics.

VWD + heterozygote- In humans this would mean that they are susceptible to the disease it only takes a single copy to have the symptoms and complications. There are a number of factors that go into determining how severe the vWD would be and whether it would manifest at all but that gets sorta complicated to write here. I don't know about dogs but I would assume the same thing. It would mean your dog would have a 50% chance of having reduced clotting factors circulating in it's blood.The background of the dam would not affect your chances of this.

Your pup would have a 50% chance of being a VWD+ heterozygous animal.

For DCM+ heterozygote again your dog would have a 50% chance of acquiring this gene and being DCM+ heterozygous. I don't know whether DCM is a dominant (meaning only one copy is necessary) or recessive (two copies necessary) for the trait to arise and I don't know how penetrant the trait is either. Penetrant means how often do individuals who have the predisposition to a trait (i.e. the genes) get the disease.

Now when you cross the vVDD dog with aVVdD dog (this is how we write it when we want to do a quick and dirty test wheter v =vWD+ and d=DCM+

You get the following percentages
25% of the time you would get a vWD+ AND DCM+ heterozygote dog.
25% of the time you would get a dog with no vWD+ or DCM+.
50% of the time you would get a dog with either a vWD+ OR a DCM+ heterozygote.


I would not knowing buy an animal like this.
I would not buy an animal that had a 25% chance of having BOTH traits and only a 25% chance of having neither (which is what your puppy would have.)
Sorry, but to the points I highlighted above... you got it wrong. vWD in Dobes is a recessive trait therefore an animal MUST carrier 2 copies of the gene to be genetically affected. There are clears, carriers and affecteds. Clears and Carriers are phenotypically the same. A dog who is a carrier (1 copy of the gene) will not have any bleeding problems do to vWD. Thus a carrier to clear breeding will produce nothing but vWD free offspring. 50% will be Carriers and 50% will be Clears.

You can't get a dog with vWD from this breeding, and it is 50/50 whether the dog will carry one copy of the PDK4 mutation (DCM). Consquently your precentages you calcuated are off (In blue).
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:58 AM   #42 (permalink)
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[quote=Julie W;1203262]There isn't a thing wrong with having a preference for a particular look and you should of course get what appeals to you. But "AND a healthier dog to boot"? That is stated as a solid fact. Like I said, you are seriously misinformed.


***AGAIN, let me clarify since you seem to have a problem with comprehension-- the dog *I* (me, myself, personally) purchased from Hungary WAS HEALTHIER than the 2 I got in the US. AGAIN, that is MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND NOWHERE have I EVER said ALL euro dogs are healthy nor ALL US dogs are unhealthy. please do NOT put words in my mouth. EYE ROLL.
Your knowledge of show quality is also seriously lacking. Not only are working line (or even almost all euro show line dogs) unable to attain an American championship, but euro actual working line dogs wouldn't be able to attain a championship in their OWN country. They aren't competitive in the show ring.

I do NOT WANT AN AKC SHOW DOG. Their "look" is not my preference. Sorry that wasn't made more clear in the OP

And how is this not insulting to American breeders? You can sit there all wide-eyed and innocent and claim otherwise, but you quite clearly implied that American breeders seriously lack in ethics and breeding practices. There are backyard breeders everywhere, in every country. This country doesn't have a corner on that. What you are interested in is a puppy from a good breeder, so why are byb's even on your radar for comparison?

**You seem awfully defensive on this....FOR THE RECORD, there are wonderful, ethical breeders in EVERY country, and there are horrid, BYB in EVERY country. The countries who REQUIRE titles/health tests -IN MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE--produce better quality dogs because a BALANCED dog is a HEALTHIER dog-- are you doing to disagree with that, too?? If that statement is offensive to you, then perhaps you need to take a step back. It should only offend those who are not confident in their breeding programs or their dogs.
Sure, that's not in the least bit directly insulting.

Again, with the eye roll. Why even bother responding when you are going to be condescending and take every thing I say out of context just so you can argue. You are not the type of person I care to deal with, you thrive on stirring up drama and creating friction where there is none. Please don't bother to reply to me any further, it is quite obvious you have nothing to contribute that I want to hear. IF you have concrete facts and information to share, by all means do. If you want to continue to be offensive and condescending, don't bother. Glad you spoke up, though, it's good to know who the "thorns" are in my new breed.



HUGE eyeroll.



QUOTE]
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:04 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
I know nothing about euro lines or american lines. I do know a bit about genetics.

VWD + heterozygote- In humans this would mean that they are susceptible to the disease it only takes a single copy to have the symptoms and complications. There are a number of factors that go into determining how severe the vWD would be and whether it would manifest at all but that gets sorta complicated to write here. I don't know about dogs but I would assume the same thing. It would mean your dog would have a 50% chance of having reduced clotting factors circulating in it's blood. The background of the dam would not affect your chances of this.

Your pup would have a 50% chance of being a VWD+ heterozygous animal.

For DCM+ heterozygote again your dog would have a 50% chance of acquiring this gene and being DCM+ heterozygous. I don't know whether DCM is a dominant (meaning only one copy is necessary) or recessive (two copies necessary) for the trait to arise and I don't know how penetrant the trait is either. Penetrant means how often do individuals who have the predisposition to a trait (i.e. the genes) get the disease.

Now when you cross the vVDD dog with aVVdD dog (this is how we write it when we want to do a quick and dirty test wheter v =vWD+ and d=DCM+

You get the following percentages
25% of the time you would get a vWD+ AND DCM+ heterozygote dog.
25% of the time you would get a dog with no vWD+ or DCM+.
50% of the time you would get a dog with either a vWD+ OR a DCM+ heterozygote.

I would not knowing buy an animal like this.
I would not buy an animal that had a 25% chance of having BOTH traits and only a 25% chance of having neither (which is what your puppy would have.)
Thank you so much for this post. From what I am reading, it would be impossible for her to be DCM positive homo since one parent is hetero and one parent is negative. I also have read on the DPCA website that being a vWD carrier is rather common in the breed. Is that not correct?
Carey
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:07 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Agile,

The percentages are still right for a heterozygous dog

They would just be carrier status.

You are right I don't know crap about dog genetics I don't do dog genetics.

I just know the vWD from ppl.

The punnet square still stands so the pup would still have a

25% chance of carrier for both traits.

50% carrier for either trait.

and

25% for no trait

Again this is genotype not phenotype.
(Phenotype means that the trait is expressed)
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:19 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by workingk9 View Post
you have nothing to contribute that I want to hear.
When you post on a public forum, you will get replies that you may not like, or want to hear, but that doesn't make them less important. If you are truly interested in learning, its prudent to take in all the information, not just what you want to hear.

This forum has people from all facets of the breed (both US and EU): showing, working, obedience, agility, SAR, therapy, breeders, veterinarians, rescuers, pet owners, etc etc. This is not your run-of-the-mill "tell you what you want to hear" forum.

People often think members are "picking on them" or being too harsh in their replies, but as you will find if you stick around to learn (and I hope you do), we are very passionate about this breed, there is a lot of misinformation out there and the members here are steadfast in continuing to try to help people make the best decision for themselves and their dogs. There is HUGE knowledge-base here at your disposal, and I do hope you take full advantage of it
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:47 AM   #46 (permalink)
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When you post on a public forum, you will get replies that you may not like, or want to hear, but that doesn't make them less important. If you are truly interested in learning, its prudent to take in all the information, not just what you want to hear.

This forum has people from all facets of the breed (both US and EU): showing, working, obedience, agility, SAR, therapy, breeders, veterinarians, rescuers, pet owners, etc etc. This is not your run-of-the-mill "tell you what you want to hear" forum.

People often think members are "picking on them" or being too harsh in their replies, but as you will find if you stick around to learn (and I hope you do), we are very passionate about this breed, there is a lot of misinformation out there and the members here are steadfast in continuing to try to help people make the best decision for themselves and their dogs. There is HUGE knowledge-base here at your disposal, and I do hope you take full advantage of it
Thanks so much. I agree with what you say-- I don't just want to be told what I want to hear. :-) But-- to be repeatedly told by one particular person that I am saying something I am not, in fact, saying, is annoying and frustrating. She obvisouly is completely on the offense with me, not willing to offer any real help, twisting my words, and creating drama, so I truly do not wish to participate in that. I wish there were simply a way to "block" someone as on facebook and such. I certainly do not intend to turn away from the forum, and from learning as much as possible due to one annoying person Certainly there have been others who have responded and not said what I want to hear, but said it backed by facts and examples and minus the ever present eye rolls of Julie , which I appreciated immensely. As I've said from my first post, I am here to learn.

Carey
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:56 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Thanks so much. I agree with what you say-- I don't just want to be told what I want to hear. :-) But-- to be repeatedly told by one particular person that I am saying something I am not, in fact, saying, is annoying and frustrating. She obvisouly is completely on the offense with me, not willing to offer any real help, twisting my words, and creating drama, so I truly do not wish to participate in that. I wish there were simply a way to "block" someone as on facebook and such. I certainly do not intend to turn away from the forum, and from learning as much as possible due to one annoying person Certainly there have been others who have responded and not said what I want to hear, but said it backed by facts and examples and minus the ever present eye rolls of Julie , which I appreciated immensely. As I've said from my first post, I am here to learn.

Carey
To be honest, I also slightly bristled at a few things you said about US dogs and breeders - maybe you didn't mean them in a derogatory way, but it certainly could have been taken that way. But keep in mind its all about how you interpret things. Its especially hard on an internet forum when all we have is text and emotes. Just try to keep an open mind, is all I'm saying
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:56 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Agile,

The percentages are still right for a heterozygous dog

They would just be carrier status.
It wasn't necessarily the numbers I took issue with, it was what they referenced. Mathematically they were calculated correctly, it was just based on a flawed interpretation, so what the numbers were representing was inarticulate and therefore not really correct. NO dog could be vWD affected, so while genetically they are heterozygous for both genes, it DOESN'T mean the dog is vWD Affected, therefore there can't be 25% that are "vWD+ AND DCM+." It would be correct to say 25% could be vWD Carriers and DCM +/-.

Here is the correct Genotypic breakdown (remember being a vWD carrier means no bleeding problems):

25% Chance of being a vWD Carrier and +/- for PDK4 (DCM)
25% Chance of being vWD Clear and +/- for PDK4 (DCM)
25% Chance of being a vWD Carrier and -/- for PDK4 (DCM)
25% Chance of being vWD Clear and -/- for PDK4 (DCM)

heterzygous = +/-
homozygous negative = -/-
homozygous postive = +/+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
I just know the vWD from ppl.
The interesting thing is that Dobermans have Type I vWD, which is the most common form of vWD, is also found in humans. In humans it is considered an autosomal dominant trait as you stated, but in dogs it is not. Why they are classified as the same type with different modes of inheritance is something I will have to look into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
The punnet square still stands so the pup would still have a
25% chance of carrier for both traits.
50% carrier for either trait.
and
25% for no trait
Yes indeed those are the statistical percentages you would get with a punnet square but you have to be careful as to how you label it. There is a BIG difference between a carrier for autosomal dominant gene and one for an autosomal recessive gene. I know we are getting into semantics here, but it is important to keep the distinction clear. Genetics is not something that is universally understood and I have had more then a few discussions with people who have a hard time wrapping their head around the different modes of inheritance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingk9 View Post
Thank you so much for this post. From what I am reading, it would be impossible for her to be DCM positive homo since one parent is hetero and one parent is negative. I also have read on the DPCA website that being a vWD carrier is rather common in the breed. Is that not correct?
Carey
Yes almost 1 in 2 dobermans are carriers for VWD.The last time VetGen (testing Company) posted statistics on the percentages this is what they reported (in 2005):
25% Clear
49% Carriers
26% Affected

Another note of importance here is the fact that just because a dog is genetically affected does not mean they are clinically affected. There are plenty of genetically affected dogs who exhibiting no clotting problems throughout their life.

The reality is you don't have to worry about vWD in regards to this breeding. The only time the vWD status would come into play is if you were looking for a prospective breeding animal, as you may have preference for a clear vs. carrier.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:20 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I would nail down a little more exactly what you want. To do all that you envision would be overwhelming. Be careful Schutzhund is extremely addictive. I was exactly where you were at 9 years ago. I thought I "might" want to do Schutzhund. I also thought I might want to show. I happened to be visiting friends in Russia. As it turned out my friends best friends neighbor had Dobermann's. She knew the breeders and I ended up with Hara. She did the research for me and arranged what the price would be before I even looked at the puppy. They did not know I was an American until I showed up at the Apartment. The economy there was not as good as it is now but the price for the dog was $400 +$100 for paperwork. The ears had already been cropped. When I asked her how much the crop was she said "very expensive, $65". The Dam was Russian Ch and IPO1. The sire was an IDC world champion and IPO1. It was soon after that the American public started buying into the E. European Doberman show world.

I found showing very boring for me. Schutzhund however has become an obsession. I would never go back to a show line dog. They don't bring what I need. Based on my experience I don't think they are necessarily easier to live with than a working line dog.

BTW I don't think the ADA has held an event for 3 years. Seems close to dead. I went to all of the shows for several years as Roberto Zorzi lives very close to me (1 hour away). So I met a lot of the DV show people. Certainly not my cup of tea. To me a single good courage test is much more exciting than looking at a 1000 show champions.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:43 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Agile,

From your post
The interesting thing is that Dobermans have Type I vWD, which is the most common form of vWD, is also found in humans. In humans it is considered an autosomal dominant trait as you stated, but in dogs it is not. Why they are classified as the same type with different modes of inheritance is something I will have to look into.

Start here!

What Is von Willebrand Disease? - NHLBI, NIH

Taken from above website.

"People who have type 1 VWD have low levels of von Willebrand factor and may have low levels of factor VIII. Type 1 is the mildest and most common form of VWD. About 3 out of 4 people who have VWD have type 1.

You can inherit type 1 or type 2 VWD if only one of your parents passes the gene on to you. You usually inherit type 3 VWD only if both of your parents pass the gene on to you. Your symptoms may be different from your parents' symptoms.Some people have the genes for the disorder but don't have symptoms. However, they still can pass the genes on to their children."

For humans So in a heterozygote type 1 tends to be more mild (but not always), you make some factor but not as much as a normal person. We may just take extra precautions because well humans are humans and dogs don't sue you if they bleed out more, also I think ppl tend to have more contact with healthcare organizations so again you will notice it more. You can call this dominant or incomplete dominance as it will depend on a number of other factors (your remaining genetic background) for severity. The actual prevalence and penetrance of the mutations is still a little fuzzy in humans but as more sequencing of unaffect individuals occurs we'll get that down more firmly.

My guess is that some dobermans with type 1 can show symptoms with a heterozygote dog, but these may be noticed rarely and may need another modifying factor. (JUST A GUESS THOUGH!!!!)

I thought that dogs were normally type III though in general which is an absence of factor and definitely recessive, note this is dogs in general and not doberman's specifically and I will be the first to admint . (! HAVE NO CLUE about dog disease, just what I've seen with precursory search.)

I don't know what mutations the vWD+ checks for in dobermans as the specific mutations will affect the severity. So if you know what mutations dogs normally have we can compare the mutations and look at what it does to the proteins versus what the human mutations are. i.e. stop codon or missense or nonsense or promoter mutation or large deletion etc.....
If we wanted to get really sophisticated I am sure there are 3d rendering programs you can play with.


"25% Chance of being vWD Clear and -/- for PDK4 (DCM)"
error here on your last line (clearly just a mistype),
it should be vWD clear and +/+ for PDK4(DCM).
And yes we are saying the same thing.

The cool thing about genetics is that there is the book (the DNA, mutations etc...) and the subtext (what is really expressed etc..) and while we are pretty good at the book in some cases we are still really working on the subtext.
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