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Old 12-02-2012, 11:31 AM   #1 (permalink)
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I have a bone to pick...

I have noticed that just about EVERY SINGLE topic I come across there is an argument about "reputable breeders."
FYI: if anyone is on the website, I can almost guarantee you that they know about BYB and how "awful" they are. Quit posting about them on every topic unless the topic is specifically says something like, "hey should I buy from a BYB?"
I put a post up because I am searching for a good vet in my area that does good ear cropping.. Guess what all but ONE of the replies are about?? BREEDERS!!! And how my puppy is coming from a bad breeder because its ears aren't being cropped by them. Good grief people. The world is not black and white.
Have some respect for other owners and simply answer their questions!! People come here for answers not lectures. You cannot "save the breed" by bashing every dog owner on this website that has a pup from a breeder other than what YOU consider is good.
At least the people that come here are being RESPONSIBLE OWNERS and seeking the best for their new puppy. If the puppy is already theirs, no good can be done by telling them that their pup is no good. Encourage them and help them so there can be one less homeless Doberman in the world, or one less badly cared for Doberman in the world.
Okay rant over



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Old 12-02-2012, 11:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Wait, wait, wait.

You want to tell people what they're allowed to say?

Fine. Since this is apparently "everyone gets one bossy controlling wish granted" day, then I don't want anyone to purchase from a BYB ever again.

Hurrah! If only I'd known it was as simple as stamping my foot and demanding others do what I say they can!

In all seriousness...you can't control what other people think, feel, say, or do. People will always get on your nerves. Take the information you want and ignore the rest. It's just part of life and the sooner you learn that, the easier it will be.

If that seems unreasonable I'd recommend you never talk to anyone again. LOL
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanleigh103 View Post
FYI: if anyone is on the website, I can almost guarantee you that they know about BYB and how "awful" they are.
Wrong. Case in point a thread going right now: Back Yard Breeder Owners

Also, this forum is about education. Re-read the manifesto if you haven't already. People come here for information and education. And it *is* true that most reputable breeders have a litter cropped before they go to the new owners. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but it is.

Also I've seen plenty of threads when someone asks for good cropping vets, good recommendations are made, and the OP isn't willing to make the drive or pay the higher price tag to do it, so they end up going somewhere else and their poor dog ends up with an ugly crop. So what was the point of even asking when most people don't take the advice anyway? Therefore, the answer becomes to find a good breeder who takes care of that for you, problem solved.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:46 AM   #4 (permalink)
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But if people would stop buying from back yard breeders, there wouldn't be so many puppies out there needing homes! If they don't sell, they will stop breeding. We hope the next person who reads these threads might learn something before they make a mistake.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:52 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Don't like what people are posting stop reading their posts.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:52 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanleigh103 View Post
Encourage them and help them so there can be one less homeless Doberman in the world, or one less badly cared for Doberman in the world.
I will NEVER encourage ANYONE to perpetuate the cycle of a backyard breeder/miller, thinking you have saved a puppy is completely wrong, all you have done is encouraged the breeder to keep going and lined their pockets with money.

That mentality only keeps BYB's and millers going. It's lovely your pup has a nice home (in theory) alas what about the others? What about the bitch the the BYB/miller breeds over and over again.... Sorry but you aren't helping anything.

I am sure your pup is lovely and you will enjoy him/her alas you have done nothing for the bigger picture.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Oh, I wasn't aware that Jordan Leigh bought the internet.
Tell me more about your rules, oh great ruler of the internet.
What else can we and can we not do and say?

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Is this, mayhaps, guilt for your recent purchase from a less-than-stellar breeder?
This is, in my experience, only behavior that I see from people who have bought from a BYB/greeder and cannot own up to it.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Oh, I wasn't aware that Jordan Leigh bought the internet.
Tell me more about your rules, oh great ruler of the internet.
What else can we and can we not do and say?

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Is this, mayhaps, guilt for your recent purchase from a less-than-stellar breeder?
This is, in my experience, only behavior that I see from people who have bought from a BYB/greeder and cannot own up to it.
This thread, or even the one Burn's linked to, would be an ideal candidate for that awesome article you've posted before
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RottenVonSpotten View Post
This thread, or even the one Burn's linked to, would be an ideal candidate for that awesome article you've posted before
I'm just going to post it everywhere!
The original article appears to be gone.
It's all good, I saved it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruffly Speaking: I consider him a rescue
Here’s how it goes:
Person A shows up with a puppy.
Person B says “Oh, such a cutie! Where’d you get him?”

Person A says “Well, I got him from a pet store, but they said he was get*ting so old that they were going to send him back to the broker!”
or
“I got him from some*body sell*ing pup*pies online, and when I got there the con*di*tions were so bad I had to buy him!”
or
“I called a breeder about pup*pies in the Want Ads, and she said that she had a puppy she was going to put down because he was sick!”
or
“When I got there, I knew I shouldn’t buy him, but I bonded instantly with him and I had to take him!”

and they always, ALWAYS end with
“So I consider him a rescue.”

Well, I consider my hand to be a pumpkin pie, but so far reality has not responded to my wishes.
That was NOT a rescue. That was a PURCHASE. And it is a purchase that rewarded, usually amply, the person selling the puppy.

My next favorite part is when person B says someihing like the following:
“Well, it doesn’t mat*ter where dogs come from, as long as they find love!”
or
“I am sure you couldn’t have left him behind!”
or
“I am so glad that you gave him this won*der*ful happy ending!”
or
“I can’t believe nobody bought him before you! Good for you for buy*ing him!”

Two words:
BULL
PUCKY.

Do you REALLY think it doesn’t mat*ter where dogs come from, as long as they get carried off into the sunrise, surrounded by butterflies and the sound of an autoharp? Seriously?

Do you think it does that person a BIT of good to have their PURCHASE given your stamp of approval?

Because here’s who DOESN’T go off into the sunrise:
- All the other dogs in that pet store, which can continue in business another day because YOU just paid their rent and salaries and covered the pittance they paid for that puppy.
- The next corgi puppy or Lab puppy or Shepherd puppy who gets ordered from Hunte Corp. because YOU showed them there’s a market for this breed, so we’d better get two next time.
- The other dogs in that breeder’s home, who will now be bred again because wow, she just covered six months of electric bill in a single day thanks to YOUR check, so she WILL breed those dogs again.
- The mother dog in the puppy mill somewhere in the Midwest, who will be bred again because Hunt corp got a ton of orders for corgis or Labs or Shepherds or Poodles this month.
- The other dogs in your puppy’s litter, who were sold to who knows what people with zero screening or any qualifications other than a credit card.

There is a sacred rule upon which our entire society is built: The end does not justify the means.
It is a GOOD thing that the puppy is going to have a good life. That does not justify the tens or hundreds or thousands of BAD things that had to occur to get him to that point.

Your dog is a rescue if he came from a rescue. A rescue is an organization desperately trying to put itself out of business.
Your dog is NOT a rescue if he came from a pet store. A pet store is a place trying to STAY in business.
Your dog is NOT a rescue if he came from a breeder. And that includes a good one; my puppies are not “adopted” or “rescued” or anything of the kind. I SELL puppies. The difference is that a good breeder doesn’t view anything she does as a business, and if she did she’d be the worst businessperson on the planet. She sells puppies based on the accomplishments of their parents and she loses money. A bad breeder is trying to make breeding their business, selling puppies based on the value of cuteness and maximizing profits however is possible. But even when you buy from the best breeder on earth, YOU ARE NOT RESCUING.

And STOP mouthing those hideous platitudes about how it doesn’t matter where a dog comes from as long as it’s loved. You do no one any favors when you justify giving hundreds or thousands of dollars to a machine that grinds up dogs and spits them out dead.
When you buy from a pet store or puppy mill or bad breeder, you create pain ten times the size of the good you’ve done. When you encourage that purchase, you’re scratching the chin of a business that can only be called evil.

STOP IT.

If you did something wrong, if you made a mistake, even if you knew it was wrong and said heck with it, I’m doing it anyway, OWN IT. Say “I did some*thing really stupid, something I hope you don’t ever do, something I hope nobody ever does.”

If somebody comes to you chirruping about a puppy, say “He’s gorgeous, but you can never, never do that again and here’s why.” Will it offend people? Absolutely. Will they think you’re mean and uncharitable and go away saying “I don’t regret a single thing I did! I’d do it again!” For sure.

But the thing is, they WON’T do it again. The next time they stop in front of a pet store window, they’ll hear your voice and they’ll feel just a little bit ashamed, and they will NOT go back in. They may attribute the wiggle in their gut as a desire for Cinnabon that’s greater than their desire to see a Beagle puppy, but the result is the same. A puppy does not get purchased.

And if enough are not purchased, that pet store will go out of business. Don’t think it can happen? It does all the time. When I was a kid, everybody got every pet from a pet store, and there were little mom and pop pet stores in every town. Now, I can think of only four or five within two hours of me. Those are staying in business because they have the tiny designer dogs of the moment; I haven’t seen a big dog in a pet store in New England in years. IT’S WORKING.

And if enough pet stores go out of business, Hunte will go out of business. And when that happens, thousands of puppy mills will simply shutter their doors. There will be a massive increase in dog auctions for six months and then they’ll blessedly go away. And THAT is the true end we want.

Don’t settle for anything else.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
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jdd, I agreed with you. But bashing people who have already made the decision won't change anything.
Now as for the people asking if they should or should not buy from a BYB, of course kindly inform them why it would be wise not to.
Brw1982, lol "bossy wish granted day." Wouldn't that be nice? No I am not stamping my foot and expecting people to quit with their nonsense. It's just a rant with intentions to maybe get people to ease up a bit and and be a little kinder and respectful of the whole ordeal. When people ask about cropping, just answer the cropping question. They already have the puppy, so nothing can be done at that point. Like I said, at least they are seeking info to best help the puppy they own.
Burns, you can't generalize people. I don't want to drive four hours to get my puppy's ears done, but I will if that's the best closest vet. That's why I asked because maybe just maybe I'll get lucky and there will be one just as good but closer that somebody knows of!


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Old 12-02-2012, 12:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I did not buy from a BYB or a puppy mill.


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Old 12-02-2012, 12:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jordanleigh103 View Post
I have noticed that just about EVERY SINGLE topic I come across there is an argument about "reputable breeders."
FYI: if anyone is on the website, I can almost guarantee you that they know about BYB and how "awful" they are. Quit posting about them on every topic unless the topic is specifically says something like, "hey should I buy from a BYB?"
I put a post up because I am searching for a good vet in my area that does good ear cropping.. Guess what all but ONE of the replies are about?? BREEDERS!!! And how my puppy is coming from a bad breeder because its ears aren't being cropped by them. Good grief people. The world is not black and white.
Have some respect for other owners and simply answer their questions!! People come here for answers not lectures. You cannot "save the breed" by bashing every dog owner on this website that has a pup from a breeder other than what YOU consider is good.
At least the people that come here are being RESPONSIBLE OWNERS and seeking the best for their new puppy. If the puppy is already theirs, no good can be done by telling them that their pup is no good. Encourage them and help them so there can be one less homeless Doberman in the world, or one less badly cared for Doberman in the world.
Okay rant over



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Here's the thing, though...you don't have this puppy yet. People on this forum love this breed and many of us have made the mistake you are about to make and payed the price. It's one thing if you already have the puppy, but for you, and for many people who come here with similar questions, it's not too late.

I've been where you are, and didn't have DT to advise me not to get a pup from that type of breeder. Do I adore my dog? Yes. Do I wish I had not bought from that type of breeder? Yes, absolutely.

You're right - most people get angry, ignore us, and get the puppy anyway. You're right that we can't stop them, but we can certainly try, for your sake, for the sake of those who might be reading and researching, and most importantly, for the sake of the breed we love.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Your average person does not come on this forum and ask if they should buy from a backyard breeder. They don't even know the term. Hopefully if they read enough here, they will know better next time and maybe even share what they learn with someone who needs it.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanleigh103 View Post
I did not buy from a BYB or a puppy mill.
Then perhaps your breeder would know of an experienced vet who does good-looking Doberman crops in your area. That would probably be the best place to start rather than wasting your breath here ranting about what people say on the internet.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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As has been said a million times over. This is a board full of spirited, opinionated, and often knowledgeable doberman enthusiasts. You will get opinions. You will get opinions everywhere. You will not always agree with those opinions. You don't have to. This is what happens on Dobermantalk, get over it, or get out

Lol jk, but seriously.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Being a mod on another large, busy forum I can tell you that all forums are pretty much alike in that they all will have topics, posts, users etc that you don't like/agree with. When you get a group of people together, who are all passionate about the topic you will get arguments, differing opinions, disagreements etc. It always kills me when I see people saying that users are "mean" or ganging up etc etc...nope that's life, different people, different opinions. To be a member of any forum thick skin is needed, and if you don't like it that's the beauty of the internet...you do not have to log in again.

Just saying, this is not the only forum I'm on, and they are all VERY similar in the way things happen/are said. I love the forums I'm on, I contribute positively, and get positive experiences in exchange. And if I don't like a post, I just don't read it. So far I love Doberman talk, it's passionate but ALL (good) forums are. That's a lot of the point of a forum.

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Old 12-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Oh, I wasn't aware that Jordan Leigh bought the internet.
Tell me more about your rules, oh great ruler of the internet.
What else can we and can we not do and say?..
Ooh, but I hear JordanLeigh throws absolutely AWESOME book-burning parties! We should go!
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Stop talking to me about algebra! All I came here to find out was how long it will take train B to catch train A if train A leaves the station at 6pm going 60mph and train B leaves an hour late going 85mph. Geez, people! I didn't come here for a lecture! I already graduated from High School. It's too late, I already got my diploma, so just tell me what I want to know!
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Jones View Post
With the end of the world fast approaching, can't we all just get along for one brief moment
Getting along is no where near as fun

Seriously, this forum offers tons of very good information and advice. It's a forum though and not just an informational website. The dynamics, arguments, differing opinions, and so on are what makes the site so addicting and 'fun'. For those type of people who enjoy "the fight atleast"

Its plenty easy to not have an account and simply read the informational posts and ignore the drama filled ones. I just so happen to enjoy the drama as well though. You learn quite a bit from the most heated threads!
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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[quote=J.Jones;1200147]With the end of the world fast approaching, can't we all just get along for one brief moment [/QU@.!!!???..Tell me about it! 19 days and counting...
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:02 PM   #22 (permalink)
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As a breeder, I get emails all the time from people who bought an uncropped Doberman puppy and are now floundering around trying to find a vet to crop them. They aren't willing to take the time or pay the money to buy a puppy from a good breeder, but they ARE willing to take our time to find out what to do about finding a good cropper, vet, training facility, boarding facility. Or to question us what to do about potty training, biting, barking..... the list goes on.

Somewhere there is a byber/greeder that is laughing at the fact that they walked away with the price of the puppy and don't provide any support as soon as the people walk out their door..... those of us who don't make any money on our puppies are also supporting those people who cut corners to get a puppy from a byber/greeder.... and if they then get upset when they are called to task for it. Too bad.

Case in point, I spent time on my vacation last week typing out replies on my cell phone to someone asking where to find a cropping vet. Hopefully they listened, but it may have been too late for that puppy as it was already getting to the age where they would probably only stand for a short crop. I'd like to smack the breeder of that puppy upside the head!
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Here's the thing, though...you don't have this puppy yet. People on this forum love this breed and many of us have made the mistake you are about to make and payed the price. It's one thing if you already have the puppy, but for you, and for many people who come here with similar questions, it's not too late.

Precisely. Bolded mine.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Your heroism sadly goes unnoticed here jordan. by the way THE Breeder of your pup should be able to get you in contact with a reputable person to do your pups crop!
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:21 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I have to disagree with you. I found this site after my son brought home our boy from a BYB and have not been bashed. I would say that We have been educated by the wonderful and knowledgable people on this forum. With this education we received I can guarantee you we would never purchase another Doberman from anyone buts reputable breeder. Not knowing any health issues his lineage has, scares the CRAP out of me.

So, as long as there are greedy uncaring people out there I would hope to see preaching about BYBs.
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