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Old 12-04-2012, 09:07 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post


I've been asked if Ilka was a Kelpie. She is a long, narrow dog, very shallow chest, with steep angles front and back, but has the most beautiful, floating trot.
Ilka is beautiful and if the head was heavier and little shorter, she would be a typical Kelpie imo. She may be a kelpie since there is no standard in this country for the Bench Kelpie - just the Working Kelpie. They only breed for performance and not appearance. Jill is one of the most beautiful kelpies I have ever seen and it was just pure luck. My sister always had small red kelpie bitches and she wants me to send Jill over to her in Australia. (joke of course). But she is a duplicate of her mother in appearance. The way she moves is unusual compared to a doberman but is typical fpr a herding dog - long and low and very fast and agile.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:53 AM   #52 (permalink)
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so odd how so many eyes can see different things in the same dog.

the reddish kelpie shown.................to my eye, has great angulation front and rear...........

but me eyes are getting old............i limp on my left foot..........arthritis is............ah heck........... it is a beauty day out.....no time to complain about getting old!

http://pennvetwdc.org/wp-content/upl.../09/9-Zink.pdf
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Cool thanks Darl!
That was the best thing I have read on 'angluation' and its mechanics!
I notice though that it says a 30 degree angle from the vertical is the best rather than the 45 that the doberman standard calls for.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #54 (permalink)
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depends on where you measure the angulation too.................

oh so much information... "out there"....

http://www.google.ca/search?q=front+...w=1280&bih=574
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:26 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberDad90 View Post
Hello guys, I am new to this forum, and have not dealt with AKC dogs in roughly 8 years or so. With that being said, can someone explain to me exactly what a "Back Yard Breeder" would be considered?

I don't mean to sound sarcastic or anything of that matter, would just like the clarification for later times I might hear/see this brought up.

Thank you in advance for any responses I may get!
Sorry but having a little difficulty with you asking this question when you have just been so strongly debating in favour of BYB in your other posts ??
How can you debate when you don't even know the answer to what you are arguing for ??


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Old 12-04-2012, 04:45 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanleigh103 View Post
I have noticed that just about EVERY SINGLE topic I come across there is an argument about "reputable breeders."
All that should bother you about this is how often, in this day and age, with so many options for educating ourselves, it still bears repeating.

What bothers me is how many threads there are where these things even need to be said.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:49 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobermin View Post
I think a lot of the posters on this forum get tired of answering the same questions repeatedly and giving the same advice repeatedly. And yet the same excuses are being used to justify why "so-and-so" bought from a byb. There's no harm in truly not knowing the difference. But if you know BEFORE you buy then you have no excuse. And when you find out after you buy, suck it up, deal with it. Don't make the same mistake twice.

And really....if people would learn to use that simple little thing called a "search" function we'd probably avoid all the duplicate byb and puppy cropping threads.
Just an FYI to the search function...I've found it much easier to punch in a name or topic into google then add dobermantalk behind it. E.g. beef heart dobermantalk
or
So n So crappy breeder dobermantalk

Is much more reliable than digging thru stuff on the home search
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:07 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q734 View Post
Just an FYI to the search function...I've found it much easier to punch in a name or topic into google then add dobermantalk behind it. E.g. beef heart dobermantalk
or
So n So crappy breeder dobermantalk

Is much more reliable than digging thru stuff on the home search
GOOGLE is your friend. I try to tell people that but they don't believe me! lol
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:06 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns View Post
People come here for information and education. And it *is* true that most reputable breeders have a litter cropped before they go to the new owners. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but it is.

Also I've seen plenty of threads when someone asks for good cropping vets, good recommendations are made, and the OP isn't willing to make the drive or pay the higher price tag to do it, so they end up going somewhere else and their poor dog ends up with an ugly crop. So what was the point of even asking when most people don't take the advice anyway? Therefore, the answer becomes to find a good breeder who takes care of that for you, problem solved.
I have a question .. is it possible that there are responsible breeders out there who might not crop a littler in favor of people who wish to have an uncropped dog? Or would it be a case of them having an individual interested in a natural dog and only leave that one pup uncropped? I know with the push here in the US for a ban on cropping and docking, there are a lot of vets who no longer do this procedure, and it is not taught in veterinary schools ( I have heard anyway). Also there is the chance someone could have bought and imported a pup from a country where cropping is illegal and might have it done upon receiving their pup? Personally I would rather have a breeder who does the crop so I dont have to try and find someone to do it. I got very lucky in finding the vet I did to do mine, but it was a pain in the arse to have to do it on my own. Lesson learned though on who to buy a pup from.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:25 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianne29 View Post
All that should bother you about this is how often, in this day and age, with so many options for educating ourselves, it still bears repeating.

What bothers me is how many threads there are where these things even need to be said.
Why?
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:52 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q734 View Post
Just an FYI to the search function...I've found it much easier to punch in a name or topic into google then add dobermantalk behind it. E.g. beef heart dobermantalk
or
So n So crappy breeder dobermantalk

Is much more reliable than digging thru stuff on the home search
You can also do a google site search, which often works better than the built-in search. It will only search within DT.

In the Google bar, type this after your search words:
site:www.dobermantalk.com

So, for example:
backyard breeder site:www.dobermantalk.com
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:17 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlightDobe View Post
I have a question .. is it possible that there are responsible breeders out there who might not crop a littler in favor of people who wish to have an uncropped dog? Or would it be a case of them having an individual interested in a natural dog and only leave that one pup uncropped? I know with the push here in the US for a ban on cropping and docking, there are a lot of vets who no longer do this procedure, and it is not taught in veterinary schools ( I have heard anyway). Also there is the chance someone could have bought and imported a pup from a country where cropping is illegal and might have it done upon receiving their pup? Personally I would rather have a breeder who does the crop so I dont have to try and find someone to do it. I got very lucky in finding the vet I did to do mine, but it was a pain in the arse to have to do it on my own. Lesson learned though on who to buy a pup from.
I don't think I have ever heard of an entire litter being left natural, not in NA anyway. There are some good working breeders that will leave a pup with natural ears if that's what the owner wants. The problem is sometimes they go for cropping a bit before the breeder has decided who is going where, so it's just easier to do them all.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:25 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Why?
Are you genuinely unclear on why members are upset about having 3 or more threads at a time about people buying puppies from places where they were not cared for, the adults were not cared for, and the puppies were sold far too young (in many cases, "to young" not being a matter of "Doberman talk opinion", but rather state law)?

You've read (I assume) at least some of these threads and the reasons that members have put forth.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Why isn't there a 'I bought a dog from a BYB please help!' sticky then?

Every case is unique and has unique problems to deal with and get advice about, whats the big deal?
A significant amount of people get their first puppies from BYB's

Besides are you personally paying the space/for DT?

I am genuinely confused as to why people have such a problem with it.

They have bought their dogs now they need support, through this support they will learn, through learning they will not buy from a BYB again, they will probably tell their friends not to buy from BYB and so something constructive will be achieved.

Greeting like whiney little bitches about it is doing nothing constructive at all, and achieves nothing less than driving people away from the most active doberman forum on the internet, with some very experienced owners, trainers and breeders, where people can learn to make the best of their ill advised decision and learn how to go about things the right way next time.

I don't see anyone whining about another 'oh look my doberman sniffed a flower' or 'Me and my dog went to the beach' threads.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:16 AM   #65 (permalink)
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No on here has a problem with people with BYB puppies coming here and asking for help. That's what we are here for, fun, advice and education.

It's when they come here with BYB puppies, say they 'rescued' their dog, say we are snobs, that we hate their dogs, and we are horrible people who judgemental towards all these 'wonderful' breeders who they love and would support again.

There is a lot of information out there about what type of breeder to get a dog from, but when people don't want to learn it gets old. Everyone makes mistakes (like getting a puppy from a BYB'er) but not everyone can see they made a mistake, or learn from it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:50 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Ah I see, yes, they are asses.
Best bet probably is to take the 'don't buy from BYB and they will all go away' approach and not post any replies, maybe then they will go away.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:51 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Shell81 View Post
Being a mod on another large, busy forum I can tell you that all forums are pretty much alike in that they all will have topics, posts, users etc that you don't like/agree with. When you get a group of people together, who are all passionate about the topic you will get arguments, differing opinions, disagreements etc. It always kills me when I see people saying that users are "mean" or ganging up etc etc...nope that's life, different people, different opinions. To be a member of any forum thick skin is needed, and if you don't like it that's the beauty of the internet...you do not have to log in again.

Just saying, this is not the only forum I'm on, and they are all VERY similar in the way things happen/are said. I love the forums I'm on, I contribute positively, and get positive experiences in exchange. And if I don't like a post, I just don't read it. So far I love Doberman talk, it's passionate but ALL (good) forums are. That's a lot of the point of a forum.
Yeah but the condecending attitudes from SOME of the "experts" on any forum are uncalled for.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:55 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Matt if you'll notice it's the people who come on considering a byb or mill dog, have already either seen the puppies or put a deposit on one, come on here for advice in between those stages then go out and still get the dog that generate the most heat here.
The after the fact byb buyers only get heat when they get the butthurt on & defend their "breeders", not when they are all "uh oh, now what"....
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:01 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I have never taken any heat on here for being ignorant about bybs. I found this forum after I had Coco, realized the error that had been made, owned up to it and have learned so much useful information.

Lots of people make mistakes when they don't know any better but the problem is people defending these bybs and going out and buying from them again. I and a lot of others will not make this mistake again and will instead either rescue or buy from a breeder that health tests and titles their dogs.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:22 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Why isn't there a 'I bought a dog from a BYB please help!' sticky then?

Every case is unique and has unique problems to deal with and get advice about, whats the big deal?
A significant amount of people get their first puppies from BYB's

Besides are you personally paying the space/for DT?

I am genuinely confused as to why people have such a problem with it.

They have bought their dogs now they need support, through this support they will learn, through learning they will not buy from a BYB again, they will probably tell their friends not to buy from BYB and so something constructive will be achieved.

Greeting like whiney little bitches about it is doing nothing constructive at all, and achieves nothing less than driving people away from the most active doberman forum on the internet, with some very experienced owners, trainers and breeders, where people can learn to make the best of their ill advised decision and learn how to go about things the right way next time.

I don't see anyone whining about another 'oh look my doberman sniffed a flower' or 'Me and my dog went to the beach' threads.
Matt, this is all fine and dandy, but the truth is, most of the time asking about the breeder is a way of helping and offering advice. Some people genuinely do not know that reputable breeder will already have ears cropped, help with ear postings, etc (just using ears as an example). When they present questions regarding this, yes their questions get answered, but they also become informed of the fact that a reputable breeder would've saved them a lot of trouble. Maybe they'll take it defensively; some do, some don't. Even if they do take it defensively, they also get answers to their questions. Yes, they really do. You may have to ignore 10 posts, but atleast 1 of them will answer their question. to those who do not take the comments offensively, they then can think 'Wow, next time around, I guess I really will go elsewhere'.

Most people go through a stage of being defensive regarding their dogs and dog breeders. The mature, intelligent, people eventually realize their mistakes, and the ignorant simply continue with their poor choices and habits.

Sometimes, yes, certain breeders on here get way too much heat even when their breeding practices are not part of the question. But generally speaking, there are plenty of people who read and learn from the "annoying posts" just as there are ones who don't.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:57 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I <3 dobes View Post
Yeah but the condecending attitudes from SOME of the "experts" on any forum are uncalled for.
It can be hard to read and interpret text. I rarely actually find anything condescending, and often that's not how it's meant but some people want to take it that way (why thick skin is needed).

IF the condescending attitude WAS meant (which again, people tend to overreact and always assume that it was when it often wasn't) well...that's life not just forums. You will get attitude from people anywhere. It is not exclusive to forums, but being in text form makes it way easier for people to get offended, and take it however they want to take it

You could choose to take this post as condescending but when it comes down to it, it was not meant that way at all. It's just from my personal experience with forums (and I've been an active member on forums for a long time, and a mod on one for quite some time also). I just think some people tend to freak out, and take posts on forums way too seriously/read more into the tone of them then was actually intended...that's one of the problems with text and not actual in person conversation.

Yes, there will be jerks, but there are jerks EVERYWHERE not just on a forum. I haven't found anyone here condescending at this point. I see a lot of very knowledgeable people who are passionate about their breed, and want to help educate people, so far that's it. If people choose to be super sensitive, and take offense over everything, that's their choice; but I'm not going to sugar coat my posts with smileys just so people don't think I'm being "mean".

The only "jerks" I've seen here so far were not regular/long standing members. Nope, they were noobs who didn't like the advice they got and freaked out and gave everyone attitude. That's also a very familiar scene with forums, yet the regulars often get unfairly blamed for being mean or rude or condescending etc.

Last edited by Shell81; 12-05-2012 at 01:02 PM..
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:16 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by StarlightDobe View Post
I have a question .. is it possible that there are responsible breeders out there who might not crop a littler in favor of people who wish to have an uncropped dog? Or would it be a case of them having an individual interested in a natural dog and only leave that one pup uncropped?
Its a good question, and one that I actually myself asked my breeder when I was talking to her about getting a puppy. I can only tell you my personal experience, but I'm sure other breeders have similar thoughts on the subject if asked.

When I was originally doing research on breeders and puppies, I was leaning toward an uncropped puppy so I didn't have to deal with the posting. In talking to my breeder about it, the only way she would ever consider leaving a puppy uncropped for someone would be if that puppy was going to someone that she has known for years and years and knows that puppy would never leave that home. For a first time buyer, like myself, its not something she would be willing to do - and the reason was that if for some unknown reason we couldn't keep the dog and it came back to her, its much easier to find a home for a cropped dog and than uncropped one. And she would never consider leaving an entire litter uncropped because most go to show homes where they will be started in conformation, plus her ideal of a Doberman is the cropped look.

And since I wasn't willing to sacrifice quality for an uncropped dog, I agreed that I still wanted one of her puppies. Honestly I'm glad I did since they were already cropped and healed at 10 weeks when we brought him home, and the posting wasn't really that bad. And I actually prefer the cropped look over uncropped now, so I think I would have been disappointed in the long run if I had not gotten a cropped pup. That's just my personal opinion, of course.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:37 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanleigh103 View Post
I have noticed that just about EVERY SINGLE topic I come across there is an argument about "reputable breeders."
FYI: if anyone is on the website, I can almost guarantee you that they know about BYB and how "awful" they are. Quit posting about them on every topic unless the topic is specifically says something like, "hey should I buy from a BYB?"
I put a post up because I am searching for a good vet in my area that does good ear cropping.. Guess what all but ONE of the replies are about?? BREEDERS!!! And how my puppy is coming from a bad breeder because its ears aren't being cropped by them. Good grief people. The world is not black and white.
Have some respect for other owners and simply answer their questions!! People come here for answers not lectures. You cannot "save the breed" by bashing every dog owner on this website that has a pup from a breeder other than what YOU consider is good.
At least the people that come here are being RESPONSIBLE OWNERS and seeking the best for their new puppy. If the puppy is already theirs, no good can be done by telling them that their pup is no good. Encourage them and help them so there can be one less homeless Doberman in the world, or one less badly cared for Doberman in the world.
Okay rant over



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This is generally a problem with the hive mind mentality. The majority of users have an opinion and feel that it's necessary to make sure that everyone else shares their opinion, it's the same with religion or (anti-religion) as well. It's actually a pretty interesting phenomenon happening all over the internet in various communities.

Last edited by travisraghib; 12-05-2012 at 01:38 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:30 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Why?
I think that this has largely already been covered, but what I mean (perhaps I did not state it succinctly enough) is not that I'm sorry that people are asking for help when they need it, but rather that I'm sorry that the situation that precedes the need for help still, with more resources to research before you buy available than ever, occurs with such frequency.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:37 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Cool, is your dobe a rescue?
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