vivienne00

Ilka is beautiful and if the head was heavier and little shorter, she would be a typical Kelpie imo. She may be a kelpie since there is no standard in this country for the Bench Kelpie - just the Working Kelpie. They only breed for performance and not appearance. Jill is one of the most beautiful kelpies I have ever seen and it was just pure luck. My sister always had small red kelpie bitches and she wants me to send Jill over to her in Australia. (joke of course). But she is a duplicate of her mother in appearance. The way she moves is unusual compared to a doberman but is typical fpr a herding dog - long and low and very fast and agile.

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Cato and Emerald's Black Onyx (r.i.p.)
Owned by Enid, Yoda, Jill (kelpie) and Lana.

Darkevs

so odd how so many eyes can see different things in the same dog.

the reddish kelpie shown.................to my eye, has great angulation front and rear...........

but me eyes are getting old............i limp on my left foot..........arthritis is............ah heck........... it is a beauty day out.....no time to complain about getting old!

http://pennvetwdc.org/wp-content/upl.../09/9-Zink.pdf

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Thanks for making this signature for me Amelia!

Matt Vandart

Cool thanks Darl!
That was the best thing I have read on 'angluation' and its mechanics!
I notice though that it says a 30 degree angle from the vertical is the best rather than the 45 that the doberman standard calls for.

Darkevs

depends on where you measure the angulation too.................

oh so much information... "out there"....

http://www.google.ca/search?q=front+...w=1280&bih=574

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Thanks for making this signature for me Amelia!

4Dobes

Sorry but having a little difficulty with you asking this question when you have just been so strongly debating in favour of BYB in your other posts ??
How can you debate when you don't even know the answer to what you are arguing for ??


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

Brianne29

All that should bother you about this is how often, in this day and age, with so many options for educating ourselves, it still bears repeating.

What bothers me is how many threads there are where these things even need to be said.

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Q734

Just an FYI to the search function...I've found it much easier to punch in a name or topic into google then add dobermantalk behind it. E.g. beef heart dobermantalk
or
So n So crappy breeder dobermantalk

Is much more reliable than digging thru stuff on the home search

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-^-^-^----_^-^-^---^-^-^-^-^-^->
New here looking for a breeder to get your dog from?
Check out links BELOW for health testing behind sires & dams when considering a puppy.

Each link has something different to offer.
> http://dobequest.org/ (<-incomplete but worthwhile)

*http://www.offa.org/

>http://www.dpca.org/longevity/listsemen.php

>http://www.puppiesonice.com/breed.cfm?breedid=56
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Dobermin

GOOGLE is your friend. I try to tell people that but they don't believe me! lol

StarlightDobe

I have a question .. is it possible that there are responsible breeders out there who might not crop a littler in favor of people who wish to have an uncropped dog? Or would it be a case of them having an individual interested in a natural dog and only leave that one pup uncropped? I know with the push here in the US for a ban on cropping and docking, there are a lot of vets who no longer do this procedure, and it is not taught in veterinary schools ( I have heard anyway). Also there is the chance someone could have bought and imported a pup from a country where cropping is illegal and might have it done upon receiving their pup? Personally I would rather have a breeder who does the crop so I dont have to try and find someone to do it. I got very lucky in finding the vet I did to do mine, but it was a pain in the arse to have to do it on my own. Lesson learned though on who to buy a pup from.

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There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. - Bernard Williams

R.I.P. Mysti 1/25/02-10/21/10

Matt Vandart

Why?

bean

You can also do a google site search, which often works better than the built-in search. It will only search within DT.

In the Google bar, type this after your search words:
site:www.dobermantalk.com

So, for example:
backyard breeder site:www.dobermantalk.com

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Erica

pdubois64

I don't think I have ever heard of an entire litter being left natural, not in NA anyway. There are some good working breeders that will leave a pup with natural ears if that's what the owner wants. The problem is sometimes they go for cropping a bit before the breeder has decided who is going where, so it's just easier to do them all.

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Dillon:b.2/19/09 d.9/28/12 "The best walks in life are always the briefest"

GingerGunlock

Are you genuinely unclear on why members are upset about having 3 or more threads at a time about people buying puppies from places where they were not cared for, the adults were not cared for, and the puppies were sold far too young (in many cases, "to young" not being a matter of "Doberman talk opinion", but rather state law)?

You've read (I assume) at least some of these threads and the reasons that members have put forth.

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Matt Vandart

Why isn't there a 'I bought a dog from a BYB please help!' sticky then?

Every case is unique and has unique problems to deal with and get advice about, whats the big deal?
A significant amount of people get their first puppies from BYB's

Besides are you personally paying the space/for DT?

I am genuinely confused as to why people have such a problem with it.

They have bought their dogs now they need support, through this support they will learn, through learning they will not buy from a BYB again, they will probably tell their friends not to buy from BYB and so something constructive will be achieved.

Greeting like whiney little bitches about it is doing nothing constructive at all, and achieves nothing less than driving people away from the most active doberman forum on the internet, with some very experienced owners, trainers and breeders, where people can learn to make the best of their ill advised decision and learn how to go about things the right way next time.

I don't see anyone whining about another 'oh look my doberman sniffed a flower' or 'Me and my dog went to the beach' threads.

Nynaeve

No on here has a problem with people with BYB puppies coming here and asking for help. That's what we are here for, fun, advice and education.

It's when they come here with BYB puppies, say they 'rescued' their dog, say we are snobs, that we hate their dogs, and we are horrible people who judgemental towards all these 'wonderful' breeders who they love and would support again.

There is a lot of information out there about what type of breeder to get a dog from, but when people don't want to learn it gets old. Everyone makes mistakes (like getting a puppy from a BYB'er) but not everyone can see they made a mistake, or learn from it.

Matt Vandart

Ah I see, yes, they are asses.
Best bet probably is to take the 'don't buy from BYB and they will all go away' approach and not post any replies, maybe then they will go away.

I <3 dobes

Yeah but the condecending attitudes from SOME of the "experts" on any forum are uncalled for.

Q734

Matt if you'll notice it's the people who come on considering a byb or mill dog, have already either seen the puppies or put a deposit on one, come on here for advice in between those stages then go out and still get the dog that generate the most heat here.
The after the fact byb buyers only get heat when they get the butthurt on & defend their "breeders", not when they are all "uh oh, now what"....

__________________
-^-^-^----_^-^-^---^-^-^-^-^-^->
New here looking for a breeder to get your dog from?
Check out links BELOW for health testing behind sires & dams when considering a puppy.

Each link has something different to offer.
> http://dobequest.org/ (<-incomplete but worthwhile)

*http://www.offa.org/

>http://www.dpca.org/longevity/listsemen.php

>http://www.puppiesonice.com/breed.cfm?breedid=56
-^-^-^-^---^-^-^-^-----^---^--------/\_____

Coco Loco

I have never taken any heat on here for being ignorant about bybs. I found this forum after I had Coco, realized the error that had been made, owned up to it and have learned so much useful information.

Lots of people make mistakes when they don't know any better but the problem is people defending these bybs and going out and buying from them again. I and a lot of others will not make this mistake again and will instead either rescue or buy from a breeder that health tests and titles their dogs.

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Asmit

Matt, this is all fine and dandy, but the truth is, most of the time asking about the breeder is a way of helping and offering advice. Some people genuinely do not know that reputable breeder will already have ears cropped, help with ear postings, etc (just using ears as an example). When they present questions regarding this, yes their questions get answered, but they also become informed of the fact that a reputable breeder would've saved them a lot of trouble. Maybe they'll take it defensively; some do, some don't. Even if they do take it defensively, they also get answers to their questions. Yes, they really do. You may have to ignore 10 posts, but atleast 1 of them will answer their question. to those who do not take the comments offensively, they then can think 'Wow, next time around, I guess I really will go elsewhere'.

Most people go through a stage of being defensive regarding their dogs and dog breeders. The mature, intelligent, people eventually realize their mistakes, and the ignorant simply continue with their poor choices and habits.

Sometimes, yes, certain breeders on here get way too much heat even when their breeding practices are not part of the question. But generally speaking, there are plenty of people who read and learn from the "annoying posts" just as there are ones who don't.

Shell81

It can be hard to read and interpret text. I rarely actually find anything condescending, and often that's not how it's meant but some people want to take it that way (why thick skin is needed).

IF the condescending attitude WAS meant (which again, people tend to overreact and always assume that it was when it often wasn't) well...that's life not just forums. You will get attitude from people anywhere. It is not exclusive to forums, but being in text form makes it way easier for people to get offended, and take it however they want to take it

You could choose to take this post as condescending but when it comes down to it, it was not meant that way at all. It's just from my personal experience with forums (and I've been an active member on forums for a long time, and a mod on one for quite some time also). I just think some people tend to freak out, and take posts on forums way too seriously/read more into the tone of them then was actually intended...that's one of the problems with text and not actual in person conversation.

Yes, there will be jerks, but there are jerks EVERYWHERE not just on a forum. I haven't found anyone here condescending at this point. I see a lot of very knowledgeable people who are passionate about their breed, and want to help educate people, so far that's it. If people choose to be super sensitive, and take offense over everything, that's their choice; but I'm not going to sugar coat my posts with smileys just so people don't think I'm being "mean".

The only "jerks" I've seen here so far were not regular/long standing members. Nope, they were noobs who didn't like the advice they got and freaked out and gave everyone attitude. That's also a very familiar scene with forums, yet the regulars often get unfairly blamed for being mean or rude or condescending etc.

Burns

Its a good question, and one that I actually myself asked my breeder when I was talking to her about getting a puppy. I can only tell you my personal experience, but I'm sure other breeders have similar thoughts on the subject if asked.

When I was originally doing research on breeders and puppies, I was leaning toward an uncropped puppy so I didn't have to deal with the posting. In talking to my breeder about it, the only way she would ever consider leaving a puppy uncropped for someone would be if that puppy was going to someone that she has known for years and years and knows that puppy would never leave that home. For a first time buyer, like myself, its not something she would be willing to do - and the reason was that if for some unknown reason we couldn't keep the dog and it came back to her, its much easier to find a home for a cropped dog and than uncropped one. And she would never consider leaving an entire litter uncropped because most go to show homes where they will be started in conformation, plus her ideal of a Doberman is the cropped look.

And since I wasn't willing to sacrifice quality for an uncropped dog, I agreed that I still wanted one of her puppies. Honestly I'm glad I did since they were already cropped and healed at 10 weeks when we brought him home, and the posting wasn't really that bad. And I actually prefer the cropped look over uncropped now, so I think I would have been disappointed in the long run if I had not gotten a cropped pup. That's just my personal opinion, of course.

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Gorrmae's Fantasy Red XIII CD RE CGC TDI
DOB 2/17/07, red/rust, male neutered Doberman

travisraghib

This is generally a problem with the hive mind mentality. The majority of users have an opinion and feel that it's necessary to make sure that everyone else shares their opinion, it's the same with religion or (anti-religion) as well. It's actually a pretty interesting phenomenon happening all over the internet in various communities.

Brianne29

I think that this has largely already been covered, but what I mean (perhaps I did not state it succinctly enough) is not that I'm sorry that people are asking for help when they need it, but rather that I'm sorry that the situation that precedes the need for help still, with more resources to research before you buy available than ever, occurs with such frequency.

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Matt Vandart

Cool, is your dobe a rescue?