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Old 12-02-2012, 06:37 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Some people DON'T know, but they want to learn. That's exactly why the threads you're protesting exist, OP. If you don't want to read a particular thread, then bypass it. It's that easy. If people come here asking about BYBs and where to buy a puppy, there's a ton of people here who can answer their questions. Don't even think to try and shut down that source of knowledge.



By the way, I used to work in a pet store that sold puppies. So yes, I'd happily take any chance I got to educate people about where they come from and what really goes on in pet stores.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:59 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Ive been off of the forum for a while and oh how Ive missed you guys(MC, Burns, RFR, Linda ect, ect) your the best! LOL
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:02 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I think the education is very important, despite what you think. While lurking here, I've noticed plenty of people who pass the information over and get defensive, though every now and then, someone is very willing to learn.

You're right - what's done is done. But new puppy owners can learn from that experience, as can lurkers. I hope you stick around... there's loads of awesome information here. Good luck with your puppy.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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It's a forum. & a free world to speak freely.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jenn View Post

It's a forum. & a free world to speak freely.
For some, of late, that's a difficult concept to grasp.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
Don't like what people are posting stop reading their posts.
Better yet, if one doesn't want unsolicited opinions / criticism / feedback regarding their life choices / decisions, then don't post about them on an internet message board. Problem solved.
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:46 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:46 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I have a problem with the term 'Reputable' breeder, probably because I had to look the word up for a more clear definition.
Reputable means to me 'with a reputation' as in a good reputation.
Well if that is the case then it is too subjective.
Also the Doberman world does need more breeders, not garbage BYB's but good well educated, honest breeders with a conciousness aim to producing good healthy pups to the interest of the breed as a whole as close to standard as possible.

However just saying buy from a 'Reputable' breeder is no good for the long term as you need to have been breeding a good while to have a 'reputation'.
If there is no support for 'new start' breeders that have 'done their homework' as it were then any hope of using more of the available, very narrow gene pool, becomes a problem.

A responsible, educated/knowledgeable breeder with the express aim to improve health in general and structure/performance of the dog in all aspects of the breed including it's working capability both physical and mental is a mouth full but a better definition.

'Reputable' just smacks of opinion and 'jobs for the boys' to me.

I have seen 'reputable' breeders websites saying you need not train your dog to bite, protection comes naturally, that is horseshet.
Reputable breeders that talk about 'form following function' yet don't test their dogs for physical capability in any way shape or form, some of these dogs have necks that I would be scared to put a collar on, let alone have the dog sent to hit a target at any kind of velocity.

The standard is probably the best thought out standard in terms of detail and logic yet for this present moment in the dobermans history is far too particular for the present available genepool.
It's a very complex standard compared even to similar 'working breeds'
If it is so hard to breed dogs with the 'correct' angles front and rear then there is a pretty good chance that those angles are unnatural for a canine to have. Nature always tends towards the most efficient design, even in species we 'mess about with'
This narrows down the usable genepool, which is already very narrow anyway and WILL spell disaster for the breed, if it hasn't already.
The modern Doberman generally does not resemble the vintage doberman very much anymore which is a real shame.
Aesthetic has taken priority over function to a massive degree with a few underhanded standard changes along the way as far as I can see and tricksy little methods of hiding dogs flaws, such as stacking to hide them and long ear crops for rubbish heads.

One can see this in other breeds such as Neo Mastiffs, basset hounds and the brachycephalic breeds and go 'OMG what have they done to this breed!' yet it has happened with the Doberman in a more incremental way, with the added 'bonus' of developing and sometimes even enhancing one of the most hideous diseases 'DCM' along with it's sidekicks, wobblers and Von Willebrands.

As far as I can make out 'DCM' is pretty much a crapshoot for breeders at the moment, both 'BYB' if they even know about it and 'Reputable breeders' alike have no real method of controlling or even mitigating for it.
Even the pedigree-o-philes have no guaranteed way to mitigate effectively and are themselves narrowing the options.

New lines need to be generated by improving maybe substandard lines in terms of conformation which have good health and working temperament.
The reverse is also true IMO.

Statistically speaking this is the only way to 'breed out' DCM without an effective test available.
The gene pool is being narrowed not widened, by our own selfish, vanity, ego and opinionatedness (holy crap that is a word!)

This is not aimed at all 'Reputable breeders' as such but as a whole picture of how I can see things have progressed, are progressing and what needs to gain real progress.

That is my opinion, if anyone doesn't like it, take your own advice and ignore it.
I am however perfectly happy to debate the subject if anyone fancies it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:08 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I agree to a certain extent.. New people do need to start somewhere,
But theres adifference between starting off on the right track, health testing, titling and having a mentor to guide you etc, and theres here i have two dobermans, they are both awesome and have lovely temperments. Not being tested or titled but still bred them...

Im sure your aware of this matt, but just to state the obvious.. :]
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Oh, it only loaded abit of your post, ive just now read all the rest
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:42 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I get your issue with the term reputable. To me, calling a breeder reputable means that they are deserving of a good reputation because they are doing it right.

That being said, the "everybody start somewhere" argument is one that really grinds my gears. You do not start by getting two dogs and breeding them together. You start by learning about the breed, getting a dog, experiencing the breed in different venues, then getting another dog and titling him/her/them... THEN you think about breeding.

I have a friend who is an aspiring breeder (not dobes). She has been in her breed for a few years now. They each have a few dogs that they have been working on titling and health testing. Neither has bred a litter yet. One started with a male and, when he turned three, she got a female puppy that her and her mentors thought would be a good match. When the female was two (and on the way to being titled) she got the bitch health tested and the results for the hips came back not-so-good. My friend decided not to breed them and spayed her bitch. She is still planning on starting her breeding program but is putting it off until she finds the right female.

This is what I would consider reputable. This is a breeder who is doing it right even before having a litter.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:22 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
It's a very complex standard compared even to similar 'working breeds'
If it is so hard to breed dogs with the 'correct' angles front and rear then there is a pretty good chance that those angles are unnatural for a canine to have. Nature always tends towards the most efficient design, even in species we 'mess about with'
I'm gunna have to contest that last bit.

Bear, from California Carolina Dogs, is a Carolina Dog/American Dingo. He's a dog from a breed that "Nature" has produced, by itself, for years. Does he look anything like a Doberman? Do Dingos, which are thought to have been feral dogs from back when Australia was colonized, look anything like Dobermans? Do Catahoutas, or any other natural/pariah breed? Nature calls for a dog that is small-medium sized, usually red, usually prick-eared with a curly tail. These dogs are put together well by "Nature", yes, but only because "Nature" kills off the weak and rejects... and Dobes would be among the first to go in the winter.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I would disagree that the general public knows what a BYB is or that it's bad to buy a pup from one. My husband never wanted us to have dogs, but once he agreed, he did not see why you don't go pick out a lab from the neighbor's litter. I grew up with a chow from a pet store! and a shih tzu from a lady in town.
I bought our first dobe based off a recommendation from a co-worker who had a dog from her. I thought that was pretty good. Personal recommendation. Better than browsing websites and forums, right? WRONG! Luckily she did take him back and rehomed him. Broke my heart.

Hello, my name is Sarah and I have knowingly bought a pup from a BYB. She was a $150 lab mix. I was told she was 6wks old and looking back, she was probably more like 3-4 weeks. I have been part of the problem. Every day I wonder what happened to the 11 other littermates and know the answer is nothing good.
So, now I also have a great Doberman from a great breeder. The difference in dog temperament alone is night and day.
My real point is this. I have 3 kids who will grow up knowing the responsible way to own dogs, horses, birds, or any other animal. A new generation with a different attitude and respect for animals.
This site is here to blatantly point out to those of us who grew up w BYB dogs that there is a better way. In conclusion, my name is Sarah and I refuse to be part of the problem. I will educate my children and others. Wait, this is the BYB anonymous thread, right?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:15 PM   #39 (permalink)
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My real point is this. I have 3 kids who will grow up knowing the responsible way to own dogs, horses, birds, or any other animal. A new generation with a different attitude and respect for animals.
Well said.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:00 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
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... Nature calls for a dog that is small-medium sized, usually red, usually prick-eared with a curly tail...
Sometimes it doesn't curl and it certainly isn't carried high I also think nature favors a long dog that can reach further without stepping on its own feet. Jill has the 5:4 ratio of length to height (kelpie std). Also note the commonly seen shallow chest but there is a capacity to move a flock all day long, literally, without exhaustion.

Photo shows straight shoulder but rear angulation in balance - comments welcome.


Tail curls but set low
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I think a lot of the posters on this forum get tired of answering the same questions repeatedly and giving the same advice repeatedly. And yet the same excuses are being used to justify why "so-and-so" bought from a byb. There's no harm in truly not knowing the difference. But if you know BEFORE you buy then you have no excuse. And when you find out after you buy, suck it up, deal with it. Don't make the same mistake twice.

And really....if people would learn to use that simple little thing called a "search" function we'd probably avoid all the duplicate byb and puppy cropping threads.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:41 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Sometimes it doesn't curl and it certainly isn't carried high I also think nature favors a long dog that can reach further without stepping on its own feet. Jill has the 5:4 ratio of length to height (kelpie std). Also note the commonly seen shallow chest but there is a capacity to move a flock all day long, literally, without exhaustion.

Photo shows straight shoulder but rear angulation in balance - comments welcome.


Tail curls but set low
Yeah that's why I said usually. Catahoutas and others have "broken" that thinking with their straight tails, merle coloring, and hound ears. Just pointing out that the "natural" breeds of dog look absolutely nothing like a Doberman, so saying that the standard angles and such are unnatural doesn't really work because as a breed created by humans they are going to be "unnatural".

Beautiful kelpie though I don't know much of kelpie anatomy because the only herding dog I've got experience with is GSD, but she's a beauty.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:45 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Photo shows straight shoulder but rear angulation in balance - comments welcome.


Tail curls but set low


I've been asked if Ilka was a Kelpie. She is a long, narrow dog, very shallow chest, with steep angles front and back, but has the most beautiful, floating trot.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:37 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Hello guys, I am new to this forum, and have not dealt with AKC dogs in roughly 8 years or so. With that being said, can someone explain to me exactly what a "Back Yard Breeder" would be considered?

I don't mean to sound sarcastic or anything of that matter, would just like the clarification for later times I might hear/see this brought up.

Thank you in advance for any responses I may get!
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:39 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Well said.

Very much agreed.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Hello guys, I am new to this forum, and have not dealt with AKC dogs in roughly 8 years or so. With that being said, can someone explain to me exactly what a "Back Yard Breeder" would be considered?

I don't mean to sound sarcastic or anything of that matter, would just like the clarification for later times I might hear/see this brought up.

Thank you in advance for any responses I may get!
Here is a good reference. Reputable breeders - for new folks

Tounge in cheek, but informative. You Might be a BYB....
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:52 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I've been asked if Ilka was a Kelpie. She is a long, narrow dog, very shallow chest, with steep angles front and back, but has the most beautiful, floating trot.
She looks just like Bronson in this pic, but with different ears
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:01 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Viv, thanks. My Catahoula pup is longer than tall, and it's been bothering my "eye," for quite a while.

Now I have an explanation for my aesthetic discord and a rationale for accepting it and moving on.

Jazi, Catahoulas are a product of Spanish War Dogs along with Native American dogs and red wolf crosses, so somewhere along the way, I presume human interference tended to the drop ear and difference in tail carriage.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:11 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Viv, thanks. My Catahoula pup is longer than tall, and it's been bothering my "eye," for quite a while.

Now I have an explanation for my aesthetic discord and a rationale for accepting it and moving on.

Jazi, Catahoulas are a product of Spanish War Dogs along with Native American dogs and red wolf crosses, so somewhere along the way, I presume human interference tended to the drop ear and difference in tail carriage.
I'd imagine a hound here and there getting loose and breeding with the natives
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:00 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Viv, thanks. My Catahoula pup is longer than tall, and it's been bothering my "eye," for quite a while.

Now I have an explanation for my aesthetic discord and a rationale for accepting it and moving on.

Jazi, Catahoulas are a product of Spanish War Dogs along with Native American dogs and red wolf crosses, so somewhere along the way, I presume human interference tended to the drop ear and difference in tail carriage.
And the merle is a weird thing that stuck for some reason, I'm sure. It's a perfectly logical explination, it's just that they've existed without human interference for a while and still are not pariah-ish like the Carolina Dog or the Basenji or the Dingo. For all I know the other breeds might be older, though. That and I'd like to know how they've gotten themselves known as a merle breed without double merle everywhere. Oh well. Dog genetics are weird, gimme my ball python genetics, I can actually wrap my head around those No drop ear prick ear gay tail red white or merle for me.
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