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post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
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What would you do?

Buy another pup from the same lines as a previous dog, who you know had a great temperament and was everything you ever wanted in a Doberman but died young possibly due to DCM? From an E. European breeder (Del Nasi) that does health test but doesn't test as far as cardio goes? I would like a pup out of Zedor Del Nasi, but it would also hinge on who he was bred with at the time:

Untitled Document

Or from a breeder that is in my own country, breeds heavily for health/longevity, but not know what you'll be getting temperament wise?
Not that I think anything would be wrong temperament wise, just no first hand experience.

DCM is in all lines, so my belief is it's all a big crap shoot anyway as far as cardio goes. Do I go with the devil I know?

I have a year to decide. Thanks for any and all comments.

Zoopsie Daisy vom Dobereich
----------------------------

Dillon:b.2/19/09 d.9/28/12 "The best walks in life are always the briefest"
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post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:04 PM
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Go with what feels right....

Your right it's a crap shoot, and one that can end painfully, but only you know what you really want and what will make you the most happy.

As an added option, you could always find a dog here or in another country related to those you like but out of better health testing. I think kansa had a litter out of zedor....Just a thought.

Hugs to you, loosing them is never easy.

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post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:09 PM
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I think I'd go with the health and longevity. JMO
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post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I should have made this thread a poll

Zoopsie Daisy vom Dobereich
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Dillon:b.2/19/09 d.9/28/12 "The best walks in life are always the briefest"
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post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdubois64 View Post
I guess I should have made this thread a poll
Don't you love hindsight?
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post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:15 PM
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I would aim for Health and Longevity... is there anything else causing you to second guess with the unknown temperment other than no first hand experience? Have you heard bad things about their dogs?
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post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:18 PM
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If I ever decide to buy a Doberman, instead of rescuing- I will purchase from a health/longevity breeder first. I know it is a crapshoot, and that there are no guarantees, but quite honestly I think the temperament is just a matter of correctly picking the right puppy (either yourself, or via a knowledgeable breeder). It can vary so greatly even within the same litter, that honestly it is MORE of a crapshoot than health if you don't know how to assess properly, at least IMHO.

As a example- I got 2 siamese kittens from the same litter. I kept one, my Mom took the other. Both seemed to be equally affectionate, although hers was more outgoing. As they aged hers became aggressive and dangerous. Mine on the other hand was the sweetest, most loveable cat to EVERYONE he met. Was carried around by my toddler niece, adored by the vets, and never even tried to bite or scratch. Same exact breeding, two VERY different personalities...
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post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharly View Post
I would aim for Health and Longevity... is there anything else causing you to second guess with the unknown temperment other than no first hand experience? Have you heard bad things about their dogs?
No not at all. I've just never met one, but I will be one of these days.

I know a few other dogs from Dillon's lines and they all seem to have very similar temperaments.

I should mention that Zedor has pretty decent longevity in his pedigree as well. Fedor lived to be 9 and Baron Nike to 12.

Zoopsie Daisy vom Dobereich
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Dillon:b.2/19/09 d.9/28/12 "The best walks in life are always the briefest"

Last edited by pdubois64; 11-30-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:27 PM
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It's a tough call, especially if you don't know what color the grass is on the other side. But if you haven't heard anything negative about them and you plan on meeting one someday, then I would say take that chance. You may wind up with a puppy that has the same incredible temperment as Dillon and that will live a long happy dobe life
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post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:32 PM
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hmmmmmm.

sometimes when you want to say something from your heart..........

pm coming to you.

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post #11 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:35 PM
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I'd personally go with health/longevity. Crap shoots aside, are you comfortable with the possibility of losing another young dog? If not, then I think health/longevity should play a greater role in your decision. Plus, look how many Dobermans are on DT that have amazing temperaments. I think you can find the "right" temperament in any good line.

Last edited by RottenVonSpotten; 11-30-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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post #12 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:37 PM
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Do you know for sure there is not longevity in that line? To me longevity is part of health. They are not separate.

And also to me there is cardio and there is CARDIO. It IS everywhere. It’s worse in some areas than others. I know nada about European lines so can only speak in generalities. If the line was relatively clean for cardio and had longevity overall, I would go back for temperament. To me those are the two most important things. Everything else is icing on the cake. I do want it all but those come first to me.

If there is no longevity in the lines, I would not go back.

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post #13 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
Do you know for sure there is not longevity in that line? To me longevity is part of health. They are not separate.
If there is no longevity in the lines, I would not go back.
There is decent longevity up close, I guess my initial post might have made it sound like there wasn't. Sire lived to be 9 (fedor) dam is still alive and will be 8 in march. Baron Nike is one gen back lived to 12. I haven't looked at all the rest yet.

Zoopsie Daisy vom Dobereich
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Dillon:b.2/19/09 d.9/28/12 "The best walks in life are always the briefest"
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post #14 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdubois64 View Post
There is decent longevity up close, I guess my initial post might have made it sound like there wasn't. Sire lived to be 9 (fedor) dam is still alive and will be 8 in march. Baron Nike is one gen back lived to 12. I haven't looked at all the rest yet.
Dobermannpedigrees.nl - The world's largest database!

if you click through you can get pretty far back...really far actually, and most have dates of birth and death, as well as inbred percentage and a few other things. No causes listed on most though.

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Last edited by Sam1491; 11-30-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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post #15 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 01:07 PM
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Paul, there will never be another Dillon.

Just like I will never have another Ezra.

Please make sure you're not wishing-hoping-praying the new pup will walk exactly in those same pawsteps.

Most all Dobermans are awesome, even those rescues of unknown lineage. If you have a chance to try for more longevity and better health...I'd be tempted to go for that.

The new puppy will have a different personality--it will be a different relationship with you--and a different experience, a different bond. There will be new and different lessons, and one day you will realize you wouldn't have missed THIS new bond, for the world, even though you still/always miss Dillon like crazy.

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post #16 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdubois64 View Post
Buy another pup from the same lines as a previous dog, who you know had a great temperament and was everything you ever wanted in a Doberman but died young possibly due to DCM? From an E. European breeder (Del Nasi) that does health test but doesn't test as far as cardio goes? I would like a pup out of Zedor Del Nasi, but it would also hinge on who he was bred with at the time:

Untitled Document

Or from a breeder that is in my own country, breeds heavily for health/longevity, but not know what you'll be getting temperament wise?
Not that I think anything would be wrong temperament wise, just no first hand experience.

DCM is in all lines, so my belief is it's all a big crap shoot anyway as far as cardio goes. Do I go with the devil I know?

I have a year to decide. Thanks for any and all comments.
I would definitely go with health and longevity. Outside of temperament issues, you will fall in love with any dog that is yours. Heck if I were to describe my perfect temperament qualities for a doberman I would say the complete opposite of what I have with my two. But I LOVE THEM TO DEATH. People always want to recreate the dogs they loved, but you can love another one just the same.

Why not buy from a European breeder over here? I know Kansa has bred some del nasi dog. And incredible also has some European show lines. Either way I wouldn't hesitate to contact them about health and lines. I've heard that the longevity of those kennels in Europe really depends on the individual dogs involved.
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post #17 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 01:24 PM
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I amso sad about the loss of Dillon.
It struck me particularly hard.

We have had a male and female from same breeder because we wanted the beauty and attitude, among other things.
We adopted this time, and I did not want another dog like Garth. I couldn't take it. I didn't want to compare them all the time. No dog could live up to my best friend.
Instead we got this goofball. I can see why he was a rescue--no one in there right mind would put up with his energy and shinanigans. Alas, we love him and are teaching him to be a good boy.

You don't really want another Dillon. Remember him for the special boy he was. Give yourself time to heal. Another dog may come along in the meantime that would fill some of the emptiness in your heart.
Female Dobes (especially Red) have a way of wrapping their Dad around their paw in short order.
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post #18 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 01:31 PM
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I would be looking for longevity with health BUT temperament is so important. This is the dog you want to live with for 13+ years - you must be sure you get the right temperament - a dog that wants to do what you want and is able to be left alone (if that is needed) and can mix with society and doesn't get scared in thunderstorms. List all the things you need or expect from your new puppy and get him from a healthy line that has the temperament you want.

They can never replace the one before and it is always a different experience but I do know of too many people who got the wrong puppy for their needs and lived thru hell for a decade or more. Just be careful and make sure it is a breeder you can trust and can communicate with effectively.

My life has been in turmoil since I got Enid 8 years ago - I can take nothing for granted. In and of herself she is quite a reliable dog but her effect on others and her reactivity and her poor structure have caused loads of issues - a mismatch between my new goals and the dog I got. I love her and would never give her up but it doesn't stop me from realizing it wasn't the right move.


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post #19 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 02:26 PM
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Go for the health and longevity. Any good breeder who is breeding for that will also be breeding for temperament and conformation too. I"m so sorry about your loss.

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post #20 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 02:42 PM
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I would also go with health and longevity from a good breeder. You really should get good temperament from a good show or working breeder. I would make sure they have 15 to 20 years showing or working and breeding good dogs.

The strangest thing happens when you are young...not sure of your age, Paul, but I would have a great dog and say, "This is the best dog I have ever had," for it to only be topped by the next, or close to the next, one. This happened to me three times, the last one truly being a "once in a lifetime" dog.

I know I will never have another dog like Blue.....could never, will never happen again.

My life, and most others lives, continually change as one gets older and one will never raise one dog exactly like another. For one, the later dogs get the benefit of the knowlege all the others before taught you. You change locations, aquaintences, close friends, husbands or wives, jobs and all this has an effect. I had step kids when Blue was alive. They brought out so much in him, his protectiveness, his thought process and much more not realized. Blue also claimed little old ladies, and their homes, who lived near him. All of my life circumstances at that time had an effect.

Just saying, as much as you love Dillon and how near perfect he was, don't be surprised if another, better one does happen to show up on down the road. Might take you awhile to realize it and doesn't mean you will love Dillon less. No matter what you do get, you will love them for who they are, too. Just be sure to keep an open mind to all things are possible!!!

Best wishes in your search for your next life partner and may it be a successful journey.

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post #21 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Paul, there will never be another Dillon.

Just like I will never have another Ezra.

Please make sure you're not wishing-hoping-praying the new pup will walk exactly in those same pawsteps.

Most all Dobermans are awesome, even those rescues of unknown lineage. If you have a chance to try for more longevity and better health...I'd be tempted to go for that.

The new puppy will have a different personality--it will be a different relationship with you--and a different experience, a different bond. There will be new and different lessons, and one day you will realize you wouldn't have missed THIS new bond, for the world, even though you still/always miss Dillon like crazy.
and just like I will never have another Petey. You will love your new boy and he will get in your heart...but you must remember you will still miss Dillion for a long time to come if not forever. When they die so young, there is just so much was left undone, they didn't get a full life. We feel they were cheated. I have lost a lot of dogs young, and all my childhood dogs died old, there is a big difference in how I feel about their lives. Before anything else I'd look for health and longevity.

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post #22 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvbirds View Post
When they die so young, there is just so much was left undone, they didn't get a full life. We feel they were cheated.
Summed up perfectly.

Zoopsie Daisy vom Dobereich
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post #23 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 03:19 PM
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I would so try the new lines.

As it's been said, Dillon was an individual and there won't be another like him. My worry, if this was my situation, would be that going back to the same lines would put the expectation (even if unconsciously) of the new dog to be just like Dillon, which could lead to some major disappointment.

If your only drawback to the new lines is that you've never met a dog from that breeder/those lines than I don't really see a negative. If the breeder is a good reputable breeder than I would expect the dogs to be stable. After having a dog stolen away so young I'd go with the lines with the most longevity.



No dog is at fault for being born into this world.
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post #24 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 03:36 PM
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Mostly on topic question: Was a cause of death ever announced for Fedor Del Nasi? I never saw it, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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post #25 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 03:38 PM
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I agree with a lot of what others have said. A quality breeder uses the three legged stool concept, Health, Temperament, and Conformation. The stool isn't solid if any of the three are weak.

Good health is fairly self-explanatory. There are no dependable predictors for the worst ailments, but quality breeders have done some research and testing. However, you will usually find that most pedigrees have a mix of long-lived and not so long-lived dogs.

Conformation can be judged against the written standard by exhibition or at least objective evaluation by a knowledgeable Doberman person.

However, what constitutes "Good Temperament" is much more subjective. If you ask 10 different people what makes "Good Temperament" in a Doberman, you are likely to get 6 or 7 different answers. Many people do not even understand what really makes a "Proper Doberman Temperament". Many just want a generic dog temperament that will love everybody. Others want a dog to act like a watch dog, but not actually be a real watch dog. There are many variations.

So, a lot depends on what the character traits were that Dillon possessed that you valued so much and want to replicate?


Last edited by Kansadobe; 11-30-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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