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Old 11-22-2012, 10:34 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AlyssaN View Post
I'm glad to see that you learned your lesson and are trying to teach others. I can't believe that a breeder would say that being vWD affected is no big deal. It's sad.
I believe that this was discussed awhile back and was stated by some breeders that they would and have breed affected dogs, I for one am totally against breeding affected dogs for any reason! I don't know anything about this Desert Legend Dobermans, expect what others have posted, but if you are going to take them apart then please, take everyone apart that breeds this way, even the people that you think may be great and wonderful, for they are just as guilty when they know that they are breeding affected dogs, they just don't post it, now is that the correct thing to do?
And don't give me that it was a CH and that is why it's ok to breed affected dogs. AFFECTED IS AFFECTED no matter if you have titles or not!!!!
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:13 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post

IMO the only breed of dog I have come across that has any kind of consistency of the correct temperament for PP is EBT's more specifically Male EBT's
Statistically your more likely to find the correct temperament in a mutt than in any one specific breed.


Just my opinion feel free to rip it.
. I don't think I agree with either of these statements. I have a club member who trained with Bully Breeds for a very long time in both PSA and Ring. He did have some nasty ABT's apparently. He did say that they worked well in certain scenarios in PP but were very difficult to train because of being "intellectually challanged". Correct temperament for protection work on a consistent basis is most likely found in a purebred dogs, linebred from generations of trial tested dogs of the correct temperament for the specific work called for.

This is becoming more difficult to find as the working dog culture in Germany has changed. There are not the number of border and police dog schools with the likes of Jurgen Ritzi, Reinhard Lindner, Elmar Mannes, etc. at the helm, who lived and breathed tough dogs. And that is in the German Shepherd world.

The working line Dobermann world is tiny and with the health issues in the breed, as well as cropping/docking laws in Western Europe, and a shrinking gene pool, very near extinction.

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:56 AM   #53 (permalink)
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. I don't think I agree with either of these statements. I have a club member who trained with Bully Breeds for a very long time in both PSA and Ring. He did have some nasty ABT's apparently. He did say that they worked well in certain scenarios in PP but were very difficult to train because of being A"intellectually challanged". BCorrect temperament for protection work on a consistent basis is most likely found in a purebred dogs, linebred from generations of trial tested dogs of the correct temperament for the specific work called for.



This is becoming more difficult to find as the working dog culture in Germany has changed. There are not the number of border and police dog schools with the likes of Jurgen Ritzi, Reinhard Lindner, Elmar Mannes, etc. at the helm, who lived and breathed tough dogs. And that is in the German Shepherd world.

The working line Dobermann world is tiny and with the health issues in the breed, as well as cropping/docking laws in Western Europe, and a shrinking gene pool, very near extinction.
AI chuckled at this part.

B You are only qualifying what I am saying with the rest of this post. Due to the statements you have made to which I am not disagreeing, pet/show quality dobermans with the incorrect temperament massively outweigh the numbers of working line dobermans with the correct temperament as you have said youself. So statistically you are very unlikely to pick a Doberman that has the correct temperament for the job (if you are the like the OP) or GSD or Rotty or any other traditional PP breed.

However EBT's especially Males, show a good level of dominance, their fight is through the roof, importantly, only when stimulated, their prey drive is very high, their play drive is high, they are (or were) very stable temperament dogs, their toughness is probably rivalled by very few dogs, their nerve is consistently high, bounce back? they don't need it because they didn't care in the first place, I challenge anyone to find a dog with more courage, a well conditioned one is very fit and agile, they carry enough weight, they integrate well into a family environment. This is a consistency of temperament with them.
You could go to any half tidy EBT breeder and at least one dog in the litter will be like this if not most of them.
They are not intellectually challenged, however much it would appear so, they, like dobermans, take a different style to train. They are in my opinion far more 'intelligent' as individuals, especially at problem solving involving getting food they should not have.
It is also a tested and proven fact that 'breed intelligence' is BS, the difference between 2 individuals of one breed is as great as that between individuals of 2 different breeds. What he/she may be referencing to is their absolute stubbornness if there is nothing in it for them.
It is highly unlikely that you will get an EBT to heel pretty like a pro but they will heel all day, point him at something and tell him to bite it and it's game on, they 'switch' naturally due to their fighting heritage and a need to take out the immediate threat, their 'in fight mode' reactions are phenomenally fast. You needn't even tell the dog that someone is ok like you so often have to do with even pet dobermans, GSD's etc, their default setting is making friends (as long as they havn't been seriously abused and even then it takes very serious abuse to destabilize an EBT).
Tell the same dog the same person is bad and they will take them on in a blink.
I firmly believe they are one of the only dog breeds that you can trust to 'protect' you without any training at all, even if it is only because they want to join in the fight.

Their main drawbacks are:
trying to get the buggers to 'out' they just don't want to do it or in fact let go of anything at all once they have hold of it, this was why Bumpy was never moved from tugs, to this day I cannot get the dog to let go of a tug without at least waving a steak in her face, bare in mind she is an old dog now also.
Having said that, if someone is seriously attacking me or my family enough to need the dog to join in, I don't give a monkeys if the dog outs or not, it was a case of 'what if, she bit the wrong target?' i.e the kids.

If you do not do anything with your EBT they degenerate into lazyness, apathy and depression VERY quickly. This is the reason most EBTS seem to be such placid lazy dogs. It is also why they suffer one of the highest rates of OCD of any breed.


Long winded crap as ususal, but basically I am not saying they are better than a Good working line GSD, dobe, rotty etc but you are statistically more likely to find one with the correct temperament than the other breeds.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:39 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Actually, I did get my Doberman from Desert Legends

Ash_fable,

I'm an actual purchaser from Desert Legends (DL), getting my pup from Suzan in November of 2007. She was from the Tirzah/Lobster litter, grandmother was Nitro.

She (Lexus) arrived safely at O'Hare, and while waiting got a call fr DL, because they hadn't heard from me. She was a gorgeous black/tan Dobe. She blended beautifully with my two Boston Terriers.

However, somewhere in her lineage, there may have been a slight defect, because her temperament was that of very reactionary, what I would almost term fear aggression (because I've dealth with that before. I had her for nine months, and had taken her to animal behaviorists and trainers who specialized in working dogs and Dobermans.

She unfortunately went after my Boston, and later when I had a baby Shepherd, who woke her from a sound sleep, the Dobe attacked and my vet told me, "one more millimeter and Czarina would have lost her eye."

I spoke with Suzan on separate occasions about Lexus, and after the Boston attack Suzan told me she would take Lexus back and refund my money. I agreed, but later backed out. After the Czarina attack, followed by a third shortly after (she came in from the backyard, and I could tell she was wired, my Boston got in her way, and that was all it took).

Called Suzan and spoke with her for over an hour. I told her I wanted Lexus to have a good home, but it was not with me. Suzan readily agreed and asked if I would keep Lexus until she could find that home. I said yes, and a few days later, Suzan called me. She had a client in OR, who recently lost a high security female. He was single, with a male Dobe living on 20 acres off the Willamette. She immediately thought of Lexus and I said Yes!

I took Lexus to the airport and remained with her until she boarded the plane. Suzan called me when Lexus arrived, and Lexus stayed with her for a week so Suzan could evaluate her. Couple weeks later Suzan sent me a check and told me that she accompanied Lexus to OR to her new owner. She called me about a week later and read an email over the phone that she received from the new owner, who was delighted with her and that she had adapted very well to his male and was very happy with her.

I'm in the market for another Dobe now. Would I go back to Desert Legends, not sure. I'm evaluating several options, but I was treated fairly by them, and they were responsive to every phone call and concern that I had. Had Lexus been the only pup, it might have worked out, because she was never anything but loving toward me, absolutely no aggression towards me at all. She was obedient, and when I took her for agility classes, she just beamed.

Hope this helps in your assessment.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:43 AM   #55 (permalink)
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P.S. Re my post

My Doberman was not super-sized. She weighed in about 65/70 lb.s
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:01 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I am glad they took responsibility in this matter and I am really glad she got a new home. That said, they are still not what I would call a reputable breeder based on my standards for the term.

Not all BYB are mean spirited, horrible people. Some are nice people. Some mean well.

To me, a reputable breeder will do all appropriate health tests, titles their dogs in a venue and have only a few litters per year. This breeder, to me, does't qualify.
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:21 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I am glad they took responsibility in this matter and I am really glad she got a new home. That said, they are still not what I would call a reputable breeder based on my standards for the term.

Not all BYB are mean spirited, horrible people. Some are nice people. Some mean well.

To me, a reputable breeder will do all appropriate health tests, titles their dogs in a venue and have only a few litters per year. This breeder, to me, does't qualify.
And, not lie about titles their stud is advertised as having earned.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:58 AM   #58 (permalink)
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And, not lie about titles their stud is advertised as having earned.
I inquired about that once. According to them, he got SchH3 in Russia before being sent over. From the wording they used, I am really not sure about that. Or, they really don't know what SchH is or what the title is or entails.

It would be something that I would continue to be skeptical in until I saw a copy of the scorebook. I am not saying it didn't happen, just that I am skeptical.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:33 AM   #59 (permalink)
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