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Old 11-18-2012, 09:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Zenyatta's breeding mis-adventure

So, as I had posted in the past, Zen finished her Championship and has her health testing completed.
We had been searching for a "boyfriend" and had one chosen that did not work out. We continued the hunt for Mr. Right and found him... 17 hours away. My dear husband and I packed up the car and took a road trip. We timed it to where we thought when we arrived she would be ovulating as she had a progesterone test before she left.
We tested when we got there.. not ready.. waited.. not quite ready but decided to try a breeding to clean out Mr. Right's pipes.
Poor Mr. Right had no clue which end to go to and didn't even attempt to mount Zen. We gave them some time, but he really didn't enjoy being assisted. We all ended up going to the repro vet and doing an artificial insemination. The bad news was... low sperm count. We AI'd her anyhow and were quite concerned that Mr. Right may have difficulty. We did another progesterone and she went from a 4.0 to a 12 overnight!! OMG... eggs everywhere on day 18 of her season. The stud dog owner and myself discussed the potential of Mr. Right not being able to get things moving. She offered his half brother to Zen. After some discussion we decided to go ahead so we would not miss the window of opportunity after all the effort we had put forth. Mr. Right's brother got it right the first time! He was quite happy. Zen was not so happy but accepted him willingly. We got 2 live breedings out of Big Brother. This complicated things however since we had done one AI with the first dog. So, this is how a dual-sired litter came about.
To top it off, Mr. Right and Zenny went to the repro vet one more time. This time they got a NORMAL sperm count on him... so guess what? Zen was inseminated AGAIN!!
2 dogs, 4 breedings. We left the north east to head back to Florida the day that Hurricane Sandy made landfall. We were gone almost 2 weeks.
I do not yet know if she is pregnant as it is still too soon. She is going for an ultrasound this Friday to find out.
If she isn't pregnant after all of that mess I will cry.
If she IS pregnant I will make a formal announcement. Right now I do not want to jinx myself. All puppies will be DNA identified to determine parentage if she has a litter.
It's been quite an adventure.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Keeping my fingers crossed for you Laura!!!
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi Laura,

I can tell you from experience that the adventure may not be over. If your bitch is pregnant, you will then have to DNA test all of the potential parents and all of the puppies. Since you have used half brothers, it is entirely likely that the initial 14 DNA markers that AKC uses for determining parentage may not be enough and you may have to got to the second round of 4 additional markers. If that is not sufficient, and it will depend on how closely the half brothers mothers are related and the role of the genetic dice, you will have to go to another source for additional DNA marker testing.

I hope the two males are genetically different enough that you do not have to go there. Good Luck.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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What a trip! What's the saying nothing that's worthwhile is ever easy! Best of luck with your litter!!
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:51 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Wishing you best of luck after that exciting trip!
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:42 AM   #6 (permalink)
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OH Boy,Please keep us posted...............
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:52 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
Hi Laura,

I can tell you from experience that the adventure may not be over. If your bitch is pregnant, you will then have to DNA test all of the potential parents and all of the puppies. Since you have used half brothers, it is entirely likely that the initial 14 DNA markers that AKC uses for determining parentage may not be enough and you may have to got to the second round of 4 additional markers. If that is not sufficient, and it will depend on how closely the half brothers mothers are related and the role of the genetic dice, you will have to go to another source for additional DNA marker testing.

I hope the two males are genetically different enough that you do not have to go there. Good Luck.
Errr, they are probably not different enough. The males have the same dam, different sire.
What are these outside DNA services of which you speak? I have Zen's DNA sent off to the AKC, and one of the studs already has his DNA profile. The second male is getting swabbed next week.
I am sure there will be a paperwork nightmare. I knew it would be difficult when we did it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
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What an adventure! Best of luck to you - I hope you have puppies on the way.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Oh my i have a headache just thinking about the paperwork LOL..... fingers crossed for lots of healthy babies after all that effort!
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Oh, my. I hope the sires are different enough that you can get definitive matches. It would be a shame to go through all that, only to get a litter that couldn't be registered.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
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First I have to say...gee when Zen grow up? Seriously...lol. I wish you much luck with the hopeful pregnancy. You really went all out. LOL.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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You have way more energy them me.

I agree with Kansadobe on this one.

At the all breed club they were talking about just this same issue.

On of the club memebers did it. Out of that breeding they got lucky and only got one puppy. But...they went through quite a task registaring that one puppy. In fact they were thankful that there were not many puppies because it can get very expensive and time consuming.

Anyway, they named the one puppy from this: Who's Your Daddy?

I know somone who also bred to a South American dog and when it came time to registar the litter went through similiar issues as it was from deceased males. It can get quite sticky. They had to in fact pay to get an interperiter with the Argentina Club to get the language barrier and time zones etc. It can get difficult.

Anyway, not to discourage you...yours in fact may go easy who knows? Hope for the positive. You must have really wanted this male. So if you wanted him that much, you will be successful in his get. I did the same and drove 2500 miles to get what I wanted. It was worth it. So will be yours. Don't worry, there's nothing you can do now, but wait it out.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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From what I know of genetics, they should be able to tell which is the dad... but it can get pretty iffy. At least in humans, there are typically enough markers that they may seem similar, but different to the trained eye.

Either way, best of luck! And if things DO turn out well... well, I expect lots of puppy pictures!
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
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First I have to say...gee when Zen grow up? Seriously...lol. I wish you much luck with the hopeful pregnancy. You really went all out. LOL.
Hmmm, while she is an adult, I look at her and see a puppy!

Going all out is an understatement. I hadn't intended to breed her until spring. After having a long talk with my handler about her false pregnancies and the risk of her going cystic or having a pyometra I decided that it needed to be done on this heat cycle.
It's been time consuming, difficult, and wayyyy expensive. We are just getting started too! LOL.
Oy
Good thing my husband and family are on board and willing to help out with whatever Zen needs. They are all fantastic!

Laura
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:14 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Hmmm, while she is an adult, I look at her and see a puppy!

Going all out is an understatement. I hadn't intended to breed her until spring. After having a long talk with my handler about her false pregnancies and the risk of her going cystic or having a pyometra I decided that it needed to be done on this heat cycle.
It's been time consuming, difficult, and wayyyy expensive. We are just getting started too! LOL.
Oy
Good thing my husband and family are on board and willing to help out with whatever Zen needs. They are all fantastic!

Laura
Hey maybe I can come down and see the puppies
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Hey maybe I can come down and see the puppies
You have an open invitation to come over and play with puppies. We haven't even done lunch yet!!
Next time you are headed south, why don't you give me a call?
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Would you believe, that long ago when I was a kid we lived in Sarasota Fl?

You are in a very popular part of the U.S. that's for sure. Taxes are a plus.

Now you get to wonder about the puppies that may be. You know after I think about it, that long drive and hardship sort of made the wonder funner.

I used to look at Macy and say..."How many?" "What colors?" And, at first, I'd ask her: "Is pregnant?"

Now you get to live in wonderland. When you look back at it later, you will see that that part was the funnest part of it all. Wonder wonder
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The two boys have totally different top end pedigrees - so hopefully the DNA won't be a big issue even though their dam is the same.
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CH Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise"
AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil CGC "Jezebel"
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