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Old 11-13-2012, 12:31 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Definition of Ethical Breeder?

Yes, I am new here and I hope that I am not going to step on any toes. I have been a Doberman lover since my very first boy that I adopted from a shelter while I was in college. He was the smartest dog I had ever met. This brought joy and challenges, way more joy!...anyway, I have been in the market for a puppy or older dog, not sure what will be the right fit for my family at this point, but I started looking around and was amazed at how many puppies you can just buy online and have breeders ship a puppy to you, no questions asked. From Next Day Pets to Terrific Pets, Oodle, etc...it was incredible to me! This one kennel kept coming up, Ramstock Dobermans based out of Tennessee and I saw on here some people had issues with them. They also advertise Warlock breeding, which I know is a red flag to most reputable breeders. More digging, and you see they also breed Chinese Shar Pei and Daschunds...anyway, this sounds like a puppy mill to me. Is this the case? Would any true blue kennel that was not just interested in selling dogs for the most money they can make a year do this sort of thing or am I just getting old and cynical? I read with great admiration the post that began this forum, on not wanting to scare away reputable breeders that we may just find to have different opinions about numbers to breed, etc, but truly, is this not scary to most people? I am afraid for the puppies being sold, and for the poor folks that are buying them...are they socialized? properly fed, etc? I would be very interested in others thoughts on this matter and this breeder in particular.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes, this is not the type of breeder that I would consider "reputable."

This thread is good for the general/broad "what makes a breeder ethical" statement... Reputable breeders - for new folks

You generally won't find reputable/ethical breeders on puppy sites, in the newspaper, and on Craigslist.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:11 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You are coorect. No reputable breeder will advertise on those websites you mention or other ones like it. The best place to start is on the DPCA and UDC Breeder Referral websites, DPCA | The Doberman | Breeder Referral, Official Website of the United Doberman Club. ALL of these breeders are not perfect either, but they are a place to start and usually a cut above the ones on the websites you mention.

Good Luck.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Stop Ramstock Doberman and others like them

Is there any way to end this sort of unethical breeding of dogs? Does anyone know who makes the money off the websites like next day pets, etc? I would like to have this kennel investigated to see what goes on behind the big screen of trees...do you think I can call a sheriff in that area to investigate? I have this sinking feeling, that unlike the people on this forum site, there are so many that are just exploiting this great breed. I know the folks here are here for the dog; I could tell that right away when I read the posts. I just don't know what to do about the others?
This kennel, Ramstock Doberman also sells Shar Peis under a Chinese name, Xong Chang Dynasty, but same people Tabitha and George Doyle I think is their names from Somerville Tennessee. They try to scare people off from writing about them in their goofy "contract" that people sign when they buy a puppy. I was lucky enough to see a copy of it...But the contract is not legally binding in the regard that you cannot talk about them and their unethical practices. I have seen their name on other forums as being bad breeders too...but, what can we do to put them out of business?
Just think of all those folks that don't do the research and end up with a "Warlock" doberman...yikes!
I am so happy that this forum exists, and thank you so much for the continued support and education on the breed by true, ethical and reputable breeders and owners of dobermans.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The only thing that can be done is not support them by purchasing dogs from them and educate others to do the same.

Unfortunately, the police and animal control can rarely do anything about it. Most of the time the animals are fed and given water, as well as a shelter to stay in. If the dogs are being neglected or puppies sold underage is the only time animal control can really do anything.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Pointing out puppymill or unethical breeders!

I like your name Dobelove And I appreciate your response to my unanswerable questions! I think that you are so right in that we do need to educate folks, and by naming the ones that we know are bad...just because a dog has a roof, food and water does not make it a fit place to live...we know they need and deserve so much more than that! I wonder why people don't name the breeders more? Do they get threatened or are people afraid of repercussions?
I keep naming this Ramstock Dobermans honestly because they were on EVERY site I saw from Oodle to Ebay classified to Next Day Pets, etc and I just thought to myself, they have to have sooooooo many puppies! And think of the money they are making, and the websites are making, on these poor animals! I know that I would appreciate a list of bad breeders to avoid as someone who is looking to purchase a pup or young dog that has the potential for a long and healthy life...
Anyway, I know this is a huge issue, and crosses over into every breed and even other species, but it seems to me that we can keep pointing out the bad seeds and kick them out of the bucket!
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Had a conversation on the topic of semantics between ethical/reputable breeders the other day and came to the conclusion that the bottom line is finding an honest breeder- of course we weren't talking mills but there is that to consider in your search and good luck w/that. They're out there....

For instance, if you start searching on dobequest.org don't expect the information to be complete....too often tragically incomplete.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thank you for your great responses to the questions!

I have learned a lot already from this board, and am grateful for its existence. I will continue on my quest to try and stop as many puppy mills and unethical breeders as I can...I am going to try and see if the authorities will stop at the Doyle place and check on the animals as now I found out they also breed other kinds of dogs too...I think that apathy will only help perpetuate the problem, and I want to try and actuate some change...I will be the voice for those who have no voice, and just try to point out the bad breeders that I run across and I hope there are some of you out there that will do the same!
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I seriously doubt that anyone is going out to check on animals when you have absolutely nothing to go by other than they seem to breed a few different breeds according to their website. If you had seen deplorable conditions and were reporting what you had seen, that would be different. You have no evidence that there is anything illegal or wrong going on there, so it's unlikely that your request is going to be productive in any way. Just being realistic here.

Chances are they are irresponsible breeders in terms of health, temperament, and conformation. But there are commercial operations that take adequate care of the animals in terms of the law. They may not be ethical or responsible by my definition but they may very well be legal.

It's not cool to send animal authorities on wild goose chases is all I'm saying.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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MaryAndDobes,
I appreciate and understand your perspective. My defense of my position is that there have been some folks on this site and others that have also questioned the breeding practices and outcomes of this specific kennel and couple. I have heard of puppies with crooked legs, coccidia, genetic skin diseases, eye problems, etc. They have just private messaged me because they have purchased puppies from this breeder and are afraid that the contract they signed will make it so they will get in trouble for saying anything bad about them. I think that this indicates maybe a bit more than just irresponsible breeders. As for the law, well, I am not one that believes that the law always covers what it should and laws can always be changed....I have worked for years in animal rescue and I just have a hunch as to what is going on with this kennel....

anyway, thanks for keeping the conversation alive...
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok, so you've heard of problems there. That's still hearsay. The people who have puppies from there and who have seen the conditions should be the ones doing the reporting. *They* are the ones who will be taken more seriously than a third party bystander.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I've also seen photos, vet reports, etc and I will be taken very seriously as I have been pretty instrumental in addressing animal welfare in several states and most that know me, know that I am not ever going to do something frivilous...these poor people that ended up with these sick puppies are afraid of this owner, for good reason, as they try to scare people with legalize that they don't understand themselves...I find it interesting that you are defending them? Do you know them perhaps?
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucyloo View Post
I've also seen photos, vet reports, etc and I will be taken very seriously as I have been pretty instrumental in addressing animal welfare in several states and most that know me, know that I am not ever going to do something frivilous...these poor people that ended up with these sick puppies are afraid of this owner, for good reason, as they try to scare people with legalize that they don't understand themselves...I find it interesting that you are defending them? Do you know them perhaps?
Hmm, I've been trying to think of a polite way to say this, but since we're talking about transparency here on this very thread, I'm just going to come out with it:

Your thread and your comments here blip my hinkydar.

Sorry, they just do.

You came on first post acting all disingenuous and seeming to want to inquire as a novice about some kennel you saw on ad sites.

Then, by 48 hours later, you have all kinds of purchaser reports, photos, contacts, vet reports, just a wealth of information about this place...and you're talking about taking action in the past against other places.

All this leads me to ask--are you a card carrying PeTA member?

(Can't believe I beat RobinB and Dobies71 to that question, awesome!)
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Good God, no. I'm not defending them. I'm just saying one should have their ducks in a row but I guess you already know that since you're so instrumental in these situations. Have at it. I'm just wondering why you're wasting your time here on the boards on this one particular kennel when I guess you actually could be addressing the welfare of the dogs at that kennel if there truly is a concern?

For what "good reason" are the puppy owners afraid of this breeder and their "legalize" (sic)?
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Wow...I am disingenuous, being spell checked, and asked if I am a PETA member?

No. I am not a PETA card carrying member as I still like my bacon. But, they do some good in the world, I would say. At least they believe in something...

As for being disingenuous, what would my motives be here? I was a bit hesitant when I wrote at first because I knew there would be those out there that would respond in this manner. Always is. I came onto this board to see if anyone had any information on this kennel, which people have and have private messaged me about, and to see if this Doberman community cared about puppy mills, ethical breeding and the betterment of the breed. I am also truly looking to add a Doberman to our family, and have found lots of great information on this site and read with great interest the articles and what some of you think is important in breeding, etc. I haven't owned a Doberman in quite some time as I haven't had the time to train one properly with small children, job, etc...I think they are a breed with such an amazing mind the more you can work with them, the better they are...

I am grateful to those of you that were able to see what it is I am talking about, and addressed the apathy all around...

The purchasers are afraid of some of the legalese in the contracts that state they will not "slander" the kennel. That they will not take legal action, no matter what and a mediator would be used in the possible situation of a disagreement. A judge would not uphold this, if it ever came to court. One reason being the very first line of the contract states that you received a puppy from a loving, clean and wholesome environment, when no one that I have spoken to has actually seen the place as they don't advertise a website, an address or a telephone that they answer. Most everything is done by email. Some purchasers have forwarded on to me some threatening emails from the breeder in response to a complaint. Legal threats, not physical!

Anyway, I know I sleep well at night, and I know that I have helped many animals and people too, so you can try to be all "hinkydar-ed" by my comments. I have assisted many animal causes that I believe in, as well as human ones, and I am not ashamed of that. For the past few years it has been the slaughter of horses and the round ups of the wild mustangs.

I hope you have something you believe in, and that you aren't afraid to write about it, talk about it, bring it to forums that are supposed to be about discourse.
People have started to write to me about their experiences and asking what they can do about it because of what I did write on this forum, so it has been all good.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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If it is true then it isn't slanderous, well at least under common law.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:25 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Hmm, I've been trying to think of a polite way to say this, but since we're talking about transparency here on this very thread, I'm just going to come out with it:

Your thread and your comments here blip my hinkydar.

Sorry, they just do.

You came on first post acting all disingenuous and seeming to want to inquire as a novice about some kennel you saw on ad sites.

Then, by 48 hours later, you have all kinds of purchaser reports, photos, contacts, vet reports, just a wealth of information about this place...and you're talking about taking action in the past against other places.

All this leads me to ask--are you a card carrying PeTA member?

(Can't believe I beat RobinB and Dobies71 to that question, awesome!)
Yep...I'm with you on this one...Just seems too sweet, apologetic, MINUPLITIVE, baiting...

Now I did it, and not politely...how do you like that?

Has an unreal ring to it for sure.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
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<quote>and to see if this Doberman community cared about puppy mills, ethical breeding and the betterment of the breed.<quote>

Lucyloo you need to reread the above statement as I think it says a lot. If you ever read anything here at all then you know we all care about puppy mills. But loose cannons running around trying to stir up trouble are the HSUS and PETA fanatics tactics.

If you are looking for a puppy then you should have stayed with that subject and not gone off the deep end about your big crusade against puppy mills. For every new law put on the books by people who know little to anything about true purebred dog breeding and breeders a nail goes in the coffin for everyone.

We have laws on the books now to handle this stuff but the govt who oversees it is not capable nor do they understand how to administer it. So they make more laws that punish the good breeders and still the puppy mills go on.

Eudcation and not buying from these people and enforcing the laws on the books now are the best tools we have to try to shut them down.

As I read your posts you have completey changed the subject from wanting to know about a kennel and finding a puppy to a flag burning disertation on some holy crusade. I think you are to be feared as much as any radical terrorist group. I also found it interesting how you answered the question about being a PETA card carrying member - To me it sounded like you said I don't carry the carry but I endorse and support their fanatical actions.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:49 AM   #19 (permalink)
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LucyLoo, I am extremely glad you found help here. The problem with PETA is that they spend their money on ads to fix the dogs and very little on the actually dogs. That bothers me when I watch their TV advertising that is very misleading. Ethical breeders care about the breed and are as concerned as anyother dog owner about the care of dogs and their lives. There are some that do not and we hope that they will leave the breed. The very best way to ensure that besides the laws we already have is to never buy from a breeder that doesn't meet your standard. We have a variety of opinions here but the messages are the same. We all care about that but it is just that PETA believes in shutting down all ownership of dogs and end to our breed. I have problems with that. I think you do too.

The above post is a little harsh. I think Lucy is on the side of our breed and like all of us hopeful we will improve and not just produce. No offense to anyone.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:03 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Ethical breeders have nothing to worry and are as against wrong as anyone. The laws are being pushed by interest groups that do not have our breed's interest at heart. This is why one of us become hostile. It isn't personal to anyone, just that it's what we love our breed.

While laws are needed, we need to ensure they are fair to the dogs and doesn't make our breed extinct. All of us are all for preventing cruelty and breeding off the backs of dogs.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Hmm, I've been trying to think of a polite way to say this, but since we're talking about transparency here on this very thread, I'm just going to come out with it:

Your thread and your comments here blip my hinkydar.

Sorry, they just do.

You came on first post acting all disingenuous and seeming to want to inquire as a novice about some kennel you saw on ad sites.

Then, by 48 hours later, you have all kinds of purchaser reports, photos, contacts, vet reports, just a wealth of information about this place...and you're talking about taking action in the past against other places.

All this leads me to ask--are you a card carrying PeTA member?

(Can't believe I beat RobinB and Dobies71 to that question, awesome!)
I’m actually perfectly capable of posting my own opinions RFR and would appreciate if you left that to me! Haven’t been on the forum much lately due to some health problems with my 95 year old Mother.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:19 AM   #22 (permalink)
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And...I'm curious RFR why did you pick the names of myself and RobinB?

Don't others on this forum see these issues for themselves? I'm sure they are capable of such.

Looks like you have some sort of ventetta about the two posters you bring into this thread who hadn't even posted at all.

Does it ever end?

Maybe that was written by you, not with pleasentness, but as in malice. It sure seems that way in that I thanked you; but you did not thank me. And, you have seen this thread for quite some time now.

I'm with RobinB now...just leave me out of your discussions in the future.

The problem going on here is that we both love the breed. You love it one way and I love it the other. But for some reason, you have decided long ago that some breeders you like, and others not.

You don't know me. You have never met me. And, most importantly, everyone who has ever gotten a puppy from me can attest to what type of breeder I am. But you sure do hate that I jumped back into where I left off years ago. I did it because I couldn't get what I wanted for myself. If I could find it without breeding believe me I'd not breed. Its way too much work and expense for me.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Oh good lord
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Nice response to getting caught with one's hands in the cookie jar!
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Typical everyone hate RFR bs. These threads have run rampant the last few weeks. Has their been a troll breeding in the last few months? I heard kimbertal was working on something like that.


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