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Old 11-12-2012, 01:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Hey all!! I just bought my puppy a few weeks ago from Omnia Paratus Doberman Kennels in Daytona Beach, FL. This is a small family owned kennel that seems to really love their animals and have a ton of experience. The womans name is Laural and her husband is a reverend so they are fairly new to their current location here in FL. Their website is outdated but heres the link:

- HOME

They are even in one of the threads on this forum listed here:

UDC National Results

I've been out to meet with them twice now and will be taking their "male pick" as soon as he is ready (about three more weeks). She said she had planned to keep him for her own, but since I called at the right time and since I am a disabled combat veteran, she couldnt keep him from me.

I went out there a few weeks ago to meet with them and meet the puppies and see how everything was. Everything checked out quite nicely. Their sire and dam are gorgeous and both very healthy and well kept. They also have a second female going through the paces of being proven fit to have a litter when her next heat comes next year. They only whelp a litter a year if that, which in my opinion was nice to hear. They arent a puppy mill just trying to get money.

Both the sire and dam were imported from Europe (sire is Hungarian and the dam I believe is either Serbian or Czech) Both hold multiple titles in a wide array of skills. The bitch is currently one of the Daytona Beach bomb scent dogs, and both do SAR. The obedience I have seen in her dogs is incredible.

I searched out a few different breeders around the country when I went looking for a dog, but all of them fell short in some way. Whether it was never returning contact, poor breeding practices, or just plainly being rude, I was disappointed in what I was finding. When I found Omnia Paratus, it was like all of the pieces fell into place perfectly. They were diligent in their return of my emails and phone calls. They invited me to their home, had me fill out a rather extensive application, and were glad to show me anything I asked to see about their dogs.

I dont have much experience in working with a breeder or buying a strong bloodline, but I have done my fair share of research and ultimately decided to go with Omnia Paratus because of everything I have said here. Their animals are amazing, and their people are great too. I am sure I will have a long relationship with them and will inevitably end up getting a red from them in a few years.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm glad you are happy with your puppy and like your breeders. I will say that there is no such thing as "wobblers free" testing, and the championships that are listed are very easy to get - I myself put a UKC championship on one of my dogs in 2 days and never saw another Doberman.

I do wish you many years of happiness with your Dobe.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I have a couple of questions about their male. They say he has a RNA and a BNA from the AKC? They do have a Rally Novice certificate posted on his page (twice), but that title is RN, not RNA. Also, I thought hips were rated as Excellent, Good, Fair, Poor, or else dysplastic. They say his hips are "Very Good"? (They didn't say it was an OFA rating, now that I've looked again.).
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Not to start a problem, he said UDC not UKC, which I agree is easy to get in a weekend.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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i'm glad you have found a breeder you connect with. i think the relationship between breeder/puppy-owner should be positive and healthy, for the sake of the puppy's overall well-being throughout its entire life. clear communication and a 'doors always open/lights always on' policy is the best.

it looks like they are trying to title and health test their dogs, just not in the normal venues that i would prefer (akc). they don't compete in akc (except for some obedience), because they only have imported dogs from europe and none fit the akc standards, so they are limited to other venues where achieving conformation titles is relatively easy. so in my opinion, all of the 'international championships' and 'multi-championships' in conformation don't hold much weight with me.

but, at least they compete in akc rally and train in working sports, and all of their dogs have some sort of working titles (some with multiple working titles). it's good to see they are achieving results in those activities. so you could say they are breeding for working purposes. and they do have health testing posted, but some of the results are not standard (i.e. 'very good' hips).

congrats on the 'male pick' selection. though, part of her reasoning for probably deciding not to keep the pick male would be that she already has a male in her kennel, and having two males can create major issues (same-sex aggression). unless she is set up for male rotation (which is extremely difficult to manage), she may have realized that the work involved with having multiple males is not worth it, and keeping the pick male was not the best idea.

best of luck to you and your new pup.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Congrats on your future pup.

Hopefully, the errors on their site are more novice mistakes, and not deliberate attempts to mislead.

I agree that finding a breeder you "click" with is very important, and hope this works out well for you.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Im sure the mistakes on the site are exactly that, just typos so to speak. Ive noticed a few on there that were just grammatical errors. I know her kids help out with the online stuff so it could be that that is where the problems came in. I believe in one of our conversations she said that she desperately needed to get on and make some corrections and updates to the website, so I wouldnt take those faux paus too close to heart.

As for the AKC thing...I asked about that too since the litters are registered with them, and as far as I know all her dogs meet size requirements to do comformation with AKC. She told me that she used to do a lot more with AKC with past animals she had in the 80's but things that she was noticing about how shows were run were getting on her nerves so she started to work more with the other organizations.

Im a disabled veteran with PTSD, a TBI, and balance issues. Kevin is going to be my PSD and also a bit of a mobility dog based on my balance and ability to bend to get things. All of the titles and blah blah blah are nice to have, but they arent super important to me. I just want a dog that is good quality and will be able to help me in the ways I need help.

I intend to do some of the sports that will get me out and about which is something I desperately need for myself and will be great for Kevin too. We have a local schutzhund club so Im looking to join that for all of the obedience and then when he is old enough, start the protection stuff. I also want to get into SAR, but Im not exactly sure how to do that (I understand how to train for tracking, but dont know how to getin involved with my local entities).
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I hope you'll share puppy stories and pics, when you get him. LOVE the name, btw
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I don't know much about European bloodlines, so I won't comment about that. I will say that you need to see records of health testing, and just vet checks are not full health testing.

And if you have 2 male boxers in your home, I would not be getting a male Doberman. They are known for often having same-sex aggression, it will show up when they are mature in males, and training and being raised with the other males will not matter. Read up on it here, it can be really dangerous.

Good luck with your puppy.

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Old 11-13-2012, 06:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Congratulations, the only thing i would say is, you have two male boxers,
And have just aquired a male doberman? Have you any experience with the male on male aggression? And did your breeder know you have two males already?
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Ive never had any issues with male/male aggression but my two boxers arent males. Bill is a male and Steve is a female. Ive dog sat some friends' male boxers before though for extended periods of time and there have never been any issues at all.

I appreciate the concern and will definitely do more research on it. If it does in fact become a problem, then I will have to cross that bridge when I get to it. The breeders extensive application asked about other pets and I was honest about everything with her.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Same sex aggression is common in dobes...it's breed specific...so even if you haven't had any problems with your dogs, adding a male doberman to the mix is not good unless you plan on keeping the males separated at all times. There are quite a few stories of members on this forum who had two males that got along wonderfully until one day they didn't...and they will fight to the death. The breeder should know that.

The dog's titles don't blow me away by any means, especially for breeding. I would also be careful of health issues (particularly DCM) in these lines, they may health test but the breeders where they bought these dogs from generally don't.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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i think the listing of the boxers came after the fact of my first post in this thread. had i known this, my post would have been written differently.

it is NOT advisable to have two males (especially working group breeds) in one home. male to male aggression is very common and could lead to chaos and possibly death. unless you are set up for male rotation (which is extremely difficult to manage in a normal home) or planning on having them live separately their entire lives, i would not travel down that road. adding a female to the mix should work out okay. but a male boxer and male doberman will be far from harmonious.

think about the advice you are getting in this thread and the posts in the forum about same-sex aggression, and then re-evaluate your decision to get a male. maybe you can ask for a female instead, assuming the breeder had an oversight when you mentioned a male already present in the home. i would hope this breeder would be aware of the same-sex aggression issues in these breeds and never sell a male pup to a home with a male present. that would start my questioning of the breeder's fundamentals as a whole.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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i would hope this breeder would be aware of the same-sex aggression issues in these breeds and never sell a male pup to a home with a male present. that would start my questioning of the breeder's fundamentals as a whole.
Never mind TWO males present in the home.

OP, this is serious stuff. Please don't take it lightly.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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right...bill and steve sound like two males to me, but OP says steve is a female...i will take his word for it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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oops......missed that.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:56 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Ive never had any issues with male/male aggression but my two boxers arent males. Bill is a male and Steve is a female. Ive dog sat some friends' male boxers before though for extended periods of time and there have never been any issues at all.

I appreciate the concern and will definitely do more research on it. If it does in fact become a problem, then I will have to cross that bridge when I get to it. The breeders extensive application asked about other pets and I was honest about everything with her.
Even if your one male boxer is good with other males, a male Dobe might not be when he is mature. A male Dobe could easily challenge your male Boxer, and it would not be pretty.

I would look into a female, they can be same sex aggressive as well, but is is less common. Look here on DT for some threads, it's a common and serious issue.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:14 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Unless you've got loads of experience mixing two males, one being a doberman, I see this as a red flag on your breeder. Sorry.

And you'll cross that road when you get to it...uhm please read the same sex agression threads here, that road might entail having to keep the males separated at all times, crating & rotating, sounds like a hard life to me.

That said thank you for your service.
Hopefully you'll take the comments as they are intended, which is to help inform before you're at the point of no return.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Okay....Im new to this forum so I dont want to piss anyone off but this is disheartening. Im excited about my new puppy, and looking very forward to finally having a service dog to help me get back out into the world that I used to be a big part of. I came here to get advice and share experiences and build potential relationships with knowledgable and friendly people. That said, in the two posts I have so far, its nothing but "you need to get rid of the dog or get a female" or "your breeder is irresponsible," "red flags," etc. I understand that these warnings are meant well for the protection of myself, my dogs, and my family, but you all are really raining on my parade here.

Ive done a lot of research since you all started to tell me about this problem, Ive returned to the breeder and discussed things with her, and Ive even discussed it with my vet. Here is what I have found, yes it CAN be a problem, that is not a rule with the breed. The vet, who has been caring for Bill and Steve (he is a female despite the name and Ill gladly take a picture with her tag in it to verify) for the last 4+ years and she said that since Kevin will be trained as a service dog and the level of socialization he will be getting in general, let alone at home, it should not be a problem at all. This is the same information I have found based on google searches about the issue; yes, it can be a problem, but with proper socialization, it typically does not become one. I also found where if a male Doberman is around another large male but he is submissive, then the aggression issue doesnt come into play because the submissive removed the fight desire since the Doberman will achieve his dominance. That is exactly how Bill is, he is a submissive medium sized dog.

Kevin is going to accompany me EVERYWHERE I go from the time I get him. The grocery store, pet stores, school, lodge and shrine (Im a Mason and a Shriner), the VA hospital, literally everywhere I go. He will be trained by not only myself, but by the breeder, K9s for Veterans (whom prefer male Dobermans for their program), and a few other trainers that I have access to in the local area. This dog is not going to be my pet that never learns anything beyond the house and few areas that pets are allowed. My situation is different than Im sure most of you have had.

Again, I appreciate the concerns and the information you have provided me. I have, and will continue to take it into consideration. I will continue to educate myself and research this out further. However this is the decision I have made and intend to follow through with it. It was said that unless you have extensive experience in raising males together, then dont do it....thats all fine and well, but how exactly do you gain that experience if you never dive in and figure it out?

Lastly...I posted this thread because this is who I bought my dog from. I have had a wonderful experience thus far, and from what I have learned about her, her family, and prior clients, I presume our relationship will continue on in a positive light. I have provided her name, and her website. If you go there and find issues that you do not like, then dont buy a dog from her. Otherwise, call her, email her, and purchase one when you're ready and she has one available. Im simply putting out what I have found with her and her dogs having first hand experience in her home and with her animals. For some people, she may be the quintessential breeder with exactly what they are looking for, for some of you, she may not be. Buying a dog, or anything else for that matter, is all an opinion based endeavor, nothing more. This is my opinion and I have given you the information I have to make your own decisions.

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Old 11-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm just gonna sit back and watch but first:

Multiple people don't give advice that should be ignored and multiple people don't keep bringing it up if it's a lie...........






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Old 11-14-2012, 01:45 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repsol12 View Post
Okay....Im new to this forum so I dont want to piss anyone off but this is disheartening. Im excited about my new puppy, and looking very forward to finally having a service dog to help me get back out into the world that I used to be a big part of. I came here to get advice and share experiences and build potential relationships with knowledgable and friendly people. That said, in the two posts I have so far, its nothing but "you need to get rid of the dog or get a female" or "your breeder is irresponsible," "red flags," etc. I understand that these warnings are meant well for the protection of myself, my dogs, and my family, but you all are really raining on my parade here.

Ive done a lot of research since you all started to tell me about this problem, Ive returned to the breeder and discussed things with her, and Ive even discussed it with my vet. Here is what I have found, yes it CAN be a problem, that is not a rule with the breed. The vet, who has been caring for Bill and Steve (he is a female despite the name and Ill gladly take a picture with her tag in it to verify) for the last 4+ years and she said that since Kevin will be trained as a service dog and the level of socialization he will be getting in general, let alone at home, it should not be a problem at all. This is the same information I have found based on google searches about the issue; yes, it can be a problem, but with proper socialization, it typically does not become one. I also found where if a male Doberman is around another large male but he is submissive, then the aggression issue doesnt come into play because the submissive removed the fight desire since the Doberman will achieve his dominance. That is exactly how Bill is, he is a submissive medium sized dog.

Kevin is going to accompany me EVERYWHERE I go from the time I get him. The grocery store, pet stores, school, lodge and shrine (Im a Mason and a Shriner), the VA hospital, literally everywhere I go. He will be trained by not only myself, but by the breeder, K9s for Veterans (whom prefer male Dobermans for their program), and a few other trainers that I have access to in the local area. This dog is not going to be my pet that never learns anything beyond the house and few areas that pets are allowed. My situation is different than Im sure most of you have had.

Again, I appreciate the concerns and the information you have provided me. I have, and will continue to take it into consideration. I will continue to educate myself and research this out further. However this is the decision I have made and intend to follow through with it. It was said that unless you have extensive experience in raising males together, then dont do it....thats all fine and well, but how exactly do you gain that experience if you never dive in and figure it out?

Lastly...I posted this thread because this is who I bought my dog from. I have had a wonderful experience thus far, and from what I have learned about her, her family, and prior clients, I presume our relationship will continue on in a positive light. I have provided her name, and her website. If you go there and find issues that you do not like, then dont buy a dog from her. Otherwise, call her, email her, and purchase one when you're ready and she has one available. Im simply putting out what I have found with her and her dogs having first hand experience in her home and with her animals. For some people, she may be the quintessential breeder with exactly what they are looking for, for some of you, she may not be. Buying a dog, or anything else for that matter, is all an opinion based endeavor, nothing more. This is my opinion and I have given you the information I have to make your own decisions.
I prefer working with a male Service Dog, as well.

Try to just carry an umbrella, okay?

These are sincere, well-intentioned, cautionary comments from other members here--and you do seem to realize that, even if it's not as pleasant a start here as you'd hoped for.

As with any forum that is diverse and active, there are always going to be a few "hot button" topics, and the male-male thing is one of them.

I am actually not one of the more strident voices here about that, as I've successfully kept multiple males over many years, but never two Doberman males.

In fact, I've always made the decisions with great care, taking into consideration the temperament and tendencies of the resident male, and of the prospective new male.

Boxers, as you know, are also a working breed, and *can be* same sex aggressive as well. Folks are just worried for the future of both human and dogs.

If you are very experienced in reading subtle changes in dog body language, you meet and exceed the needs of all dogs involved, you have expert training support and assistance, AND the right dog is picked for you, it could work.

Just try to make sure all that is truly in place, and also know that even all the training in the world does not change who the dogs are.

I know it would be heartbreaking to have to rehome somebody, so just have contingency plans in place, in case there should be a problem as your Service Dog matures.

Good luck, and I do hope you come back and update us.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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i guess you can say every situation is different. but most of us are speaking from years of experience, and we can only offer you proven advice on this topic.

it looks like you're sticking with your decision to add a male to the mix, but hopefully as your doberman matures, there won't be a time where you say 'they told me so.' we are just looking out for you and the lives of your dogs.

RedFawnRising makes a good point about having multiple males, but never two dobermans (this basically holds true for most working group breeds). i'd say that if you have a male japanese chin and a male bullmastiff, the male aggression problem probably isn't going to be much of an issue at all. but put two dobermans, bullmastiffs, great danes, black russian terriers, boxers, cane corso, for example, together, who usually have the same mindset of 'i am king of this jungle,' there will be a rumble in that jungle.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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It's not just about socialization. It's actually part of the DPCA breed standard, a dog who gets agressive to other dogs in the ring is not disqualified:

DPCA | The Doberman | Standard

"Energetic, watchful, determined alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman.

Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness."

My Thor used to be great with all friendly dogs. He has been well socialized, with people, kids and dogs. He goes to the pet store, dog shows, and has been in a lot of training classes. He went with his handler to many dog shows, and was never a problem. I have pictures of him in an exercise pen with 2 male Chinese Crested puppies. He was the only one who was gentle enough to play with them, his handle could tell him down, and he would lay there and play so nice.

But when he was between 2 1/2 -3 years old, that stopped. He tries to put young dogs in their place, especially males. After he had one of the male puppies I was watching pinned to the ground by it's throat, he is never allowed with any males at all anymore. At all. Didn't put a scratch on him, but Thor meant to seriously put him in his place, and it could have easily gotten really ugly if the baby wasnt scared and submitted, and if I want right there to call him off. Crate and rotate any time we have other dogs I'm watching in the house, and let me tell you, that gets old. On leash outside he is a lot calmer towards males, but in his house he means business.

I know it stinks to hear things like this, I know you are very excited about your breeder and getting your puppy. But people here are very experienced (much more so than me) and know that this is a reality. We are not trying to sell you anything, we just know how these types of cases can end up and are trying to help you avoid a situation like that.

Here are some past examples with good advice in them:

Male on Male Aggression

male aggression

Foster dog fighting with resident dog

Dog on dog aggression
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:03 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Just another voice of reason here...... I have a male that is very low maintenance, very well trained, very mellow for a doberman, and overall isn't much of a 'doberman' characteristic wise. And yes, he has played with males before and is perfectly fine. My roommate (old roommate) adopted a pit mix puppy when we lived together. He was a male, and I told her what would happen as he matured. After he hit about 1.5 years old, my Doberman was all of a sudden 'not ok with it'. He would be fine 99.9% of the time, but when push came to shove over something as simple as walking out of a door or drinking water, or finding a bone somewhere, Zeus was not ok with it whatsoever.

What Zeus let Riley get away with when he was a puppy was not allowed whatsoever when Riley matured. Riley is also now (~2.5 years) still very dog neutral. Zeus is fine being with Riley for short periods, but when it comes to living together, this was not going to happen for us so she had to move out. I was not willing to take the risk of my dog being out without me there. I can read his body language well enough to predict a problem before it happens, but everyone else in the household certainly can't.

He is also plenty "well socialized" and "well trained". We are training with a professional on average 4x a week, so it is certainly not a training problem nor a socialization problem. He is not even a naturally dominant dog, which makes me believe even more so that it is a 'breed' problem. And breed as in 'large working dog group'. Boxers are notorious for same sex aggression as well.

I understand people having preferences for male vs female (well not really ), but why would you even want to risk to it? What is wrong with a female? Honestly, I never seem to understand why people are so set on males. I'd rather have a female that's going to work out with less stress than have a male and have to constantly be on guard.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:21 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Beating a dead horse at this point but seriously? These people are trying to help you and your dogs and all you can do is complain about your parade being rained on? I would rather have my parade be rained on now with reason than with blood of 2 dead or badly injured dogs later on.


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