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Old 11-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I have many pets, a German shepherd, a Doberman, a pug/boxer mix and have owned two English mastiffs in the past.
My GSD can be very pushy meeting new dogs, if the other dog causes problems first he is ON IT. Before we moved our neighbor had a purebred female boxer and my GSD and the boxer never got along. We tried to get them to like each other but it never happened.
Dog aggression is no fun nor no joke.
My female mastiff was very dog/people aggressive. She would go after any dog. Dealt with that for a year then put her to sleep because it was too difficult to deal with. She was an outside dog.
She also never caused serious damage to any of my dogs, so it may have been more territorial/dominant behavior than true aggression.
My Doberman female, does not care for other dogs except our own, she showed this behaviour very young.
I would never want another truly dog aggressive dog, it's a burden that is no fun.
I would hope you get a kennel put up of some sort so you have the option to safety seperate if necessary.



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Old 11-17-2012, 12:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I used to think any dog cod be fixed and perhaps most CAN with proper trainers, But there are some that no amount of training or socialization is going to curb. Sometimes it can be genetic.
Dog aggressive grandparent?
It's not always about the parents.
Good luck in whatever you choose!


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Old 11-17-2012, 02:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You know the turn of this thread truly amazes me. - For a large part of the working world an AKC Ch alone is not much either. In fact we will read many of the exact same people lamenting how Dobermans no longer stand up and are protective. Look at the dismal # of Dobermans that can even pass a simple WAE.

I have known Laural for several years - met her through UDC - and by gosh if being a certified bomb and drug dog is not good enough for you then you need to get out there and train for the certification not to mention the other titles she has earned. FYI for some of us who both work and show our dogs, titles other than AKC and getting a judges opinion holds a lot of weight (especailly since most of the judges are AKC judges). It allows us to continue our training and not loos valuable time.

Showing is costly and if you truly work your dog you can't afford to sit back waiting for him to get his AKC ch by finding the right judges who like your kind of dog, finding the show where you think you have the best chance of winning and paying a big time handler to pad the odds. Way too many show handers and breeders don't think you can train obedience and conformation at the same time. Makes me wonder what is wrong with the dog.

If CH alone is all you look at then you ought to get up at 7 AM in the rain and lay a track then go tracking. That is the real test of the heart of the owner and the dog. It does not take near as much to get dressed up and go sit in air conditioning til your time to parade around the ring. Been there done that and I appreciate it for what it is - at least it shows they are doing something with the dog but it is in no way the end all end all.

When a breeding I had planned to Solomon did not work out I chose to get a puppy from Torra and him instead and although he is not top AKC ch material he is a kick butt working dog and since that is what the doberman was bred for that is most important.

He was Best Opposite Puppy at UDC Natls in April passing his puppy temperament test and just got his first excellent and CC from Doug Matson at our MCWDC trial and passed his youth temperament test. We have been fortunate to bring in Waine Singleton to work with our club and he is very impressed with the temperamnet and we are training his obedience and tracking. Why would I want him on the road with some handler doing nothing but vegitating and lanugishing in a crate somewhere???

FYI Dogs can get a point in AKC without ever seeing another Doberman too, in fact they can get a major win if they win the group and beat other dogs that earned points. If shows continue to dwindle then you might see even more of it.

Not to mention that often in the dog classes there are very few entries and is why they hope to pick up the roll over points as the judge gives them the win so they can pick up the bitches points. It is often a "favor" point and I can't tell you how many times I hear a stud dog handler ask someone to lay off the bitch so they can pick up points. So it is not all it is cracked up to be either. Just get out there and do something with the dog that is what is important not sitting back criticizing others for their titles which probably exceed what many others have.

Some of you really aught to sit around ring side - you would be amazed at what you learn. Political and who is on the other end of the lead count for much. I have seen some dogs win and I was darn well glad that they were not mine so there are problems in judging also.

The most important thing about showing is that you actually work with your dog and are doing something other than just breeding. If you show in multiple arenas then you can't throw two years out the window just working on an AKC CH you need to be working and training that puppy and bringing them along for the real working world.

Repsol12 - you could not have met a nicer more knowledgable person to work with. She works and trains her own dogs and knows both AKC and FCI conformaiton as well as the rigors involved in training a working dog for more than just a pretty face. She is one of the nicest people you will every meet and you can trust her to be there if you need help. Can't wait to hear about how your dog does for you he should have the heart and drive to be a very awesome service dog.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dobs4ever View Post
You know the turn of this thread truly amazes me. - For a large part of the working world an AKC Ch alone is not much either. In fact we will read many of the exact same people lamenting how Dobermans no longer stand up and are protective. Look at the dismal # of Dobermans that can even pass a simple WAE.

I have known Laural for several years - met her through UDC - and by gosh if being a certified bomb and drug dog is not good enough for you then you need to get out there and train for the certification not to mention the other titles she has earned. FYI for some of us who both work and show our dogs, titles other than AKC and getting a judges opinion holds a lot of weight (especailly since most of the judges are AKC judges). It allows us to continue our training and not loos valuable time.

Showing is costly and if you truly work your dog you can't afford to sit back waiting for him to get his AKC ch by finding the right judges who like your kind of dog, finding the show where you think you have the best chance of winning and paying a big time handler to pad the odds. Way too many show handers and breeders don't think you can train obedience and conformation at the same time. Makes me wonder what is wrong with the dog.

If CH alone is all you look at then you ought to get up at 7 AM in the rain and lay a track then go tracking. That is the real test of the heart of the owner and the dog. It does not take near as much to get dressed up and go sit in air conditioning til your time to parade around the ring. Been there done that and I appreciate it for what it is - at least it shows they are doing something with the dog but it is in no way the end all end all.

When a breeding I had planned to Solomon did not work out I chose to get a puppy from Torra and him instead and although he is not top AKC ch material he is a kick butt working dog and since that is what the doberman was bred for that is most important.

He was Best Opposite Puppy at UDC Natls in April passing his puppy temperament test and just got his first excellent and CC from Doug Matson at our MCWDC trial and passed his youth temperament test. We have been fortunate to bring in Waine Singleton to work with our club and he is very impressed with the temperamnet and we are training his obedience and tracking. Why would I want him on the road with some handler doing nothing but vegitating and lanugishing in a crate somewhere???

FYI Dogs can get a point in AKC without ever seeing another Doberman too, in fact they can get a major win if they win the group and beat other dogs that earned points. If shows continue to dwindle then you might see even more of it.

Not to mention that often in the dog classes there are very few entries and is why they hope to pick up the roll over points as the judge gives them the win so they can pick up the bitches points. It is often a "favor" point and I can't tell you how many times I hear a stud dog handler ask someone to lay off the bitch so they can pick up points. So it is not all it is cracked up to be either. Just get out there and do something with the dog that is what is important not sitting back criticizing others for their titles which probably exceed what many others have.

Some of you really aught to sit around ring side - you would be amazed at what you learn. Political and who is on the other end of the lead count for much. I have seen some dogs win and I was darn well glad that they were not mine so there are problems in judging also.

The most important thing about showing is that you actually work with your dog and are doing something other than just breeding. If you show in multiple arenas then you can't throw two years out the window just working on an AKC CH you need to be working and training that puppy and bringing them along for the real working world.

Repsol12 - you could not have met a nicer more knowledgable person to work with. She works and trains her own dogs and knows both AKC and FCI conformaiton as well as the rigors involved in training a working dog for more than just a pretty face. She is one of the nicest people you will every meet and you can trust her to be there if you need help. Can't wait to hear about how your dog does for you he should have the heart and drive to be a very awesome service dog.
Thank you very much for chiming in. As I mentioned in a previous post, its very disheartening to be excited about this new phase of my (and my family to include Bill and Steve) life only to come here and be slammed with "youre gonna regret it" and all the other negative things. I thought these forums were to promote the breed, not continue to demonize the animals.

I dont know much, if anything, about conformation showing, but I do know that if a dog displays aggression toward the judge, owner/handler, or other dogs then they are immediately deemed viscious and removed from the ring. If male/male aggression is such a problem, then AKC and other organizations shows would end up one big brawl when it came to showing the males. Especially since they have to be intact so the testosterone would be flowing. Yet, thats not really an issue I have found in my research. It is almost irrelevant about all of the AKC CH titling stuff for me though, because that isnt my intention (Im not ruling it out though).

Kevin is going to be a great service dog, I have no doubts. I know the stock he comes from and Ive seen the pedigrees and titles his lineage has in working sports. We will be working for the titles and certifications that I believe will be good for him, and help me with my goals for owning a service animal. CGC STAR, CGC, TT, obedience titles, schutzhund titles, tracking, and SAR are the things I have an interest in. These will all help me tremendously with my disabilities, and be great things to get Kevin involved in and to help promote the breed.

Laurel is everything you said she is and more. She is super sweet, didnt pressure me to buy, in fact Id say she made me work to prove to her I'll be a good owner. Research on both sides went into our mutual decision to become breeder/clients. She wanted to see everything I had on both my dogs, she asked a ton of questions (and still does), she wanted to see everything on myself short of a credit report. She did her due diligence on me, and I have done mine on her. I am going to be working with her for probably the next two years or so with training Kevin since she has extensive experience in some of the things I need and want.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I certianly don't think an AKC Ch is necessary or sufficient enough to make a dog worth breeding. I also think that this breeder's titles are impressive for a doberman, but not impressive enough for me to consider the dogs worth breeding.

For someone looking for a service dog, like the OP, I want to see titles that show the dog's athleticism. Maybe others don't think that is necessary, but for someone who is disappointed with the general working ability of this breed, and how difficult it is to find a good working breeder, I certainly do. There are many on this forum who have dogs from solely AKC Ch titled parents that I wouldn't want a puppy from either.

I have an IPO titled dog from FCI show and working titled parents, that I don't consider fit for breeding. He's a great working dog, and beautiful, but doesn't have the drive that I want in a doberman, therefore, I don't think he has anything of enough value to pass on.


My standard is high because I still want to see this breed competing in working sports in 10 years, hopefully with a better reputation. This breeder can be the nicest person in the world and very active with her dogs, but that doesn't change the dog's breeding suitability IMO.

Also, at least two of her dogs are directly from Betelges, who had 7 litters in 2011, and from what I can see...has pretty limited health testing on their dogs. We have a member here who just lost his Betelges dog at 3 to DCM. 3!!

Again about the male/male aggression...my male is fine with other dogs outside of his home, but living with other males is a completely different issue. I have four male dogs in my family of all different breeds and sizes, all of them get along together except for my dobe...therefore, he is separated when we are in the same house. They can go on walks together as long as we each have one dog, and he constantly wants to play with the other dogs, but there is something very different about how he can react to other males in certian situations. I compete in IPO with him, there is always another dog on the field (both off leash) and he has never had a problem...its not an obedience issue.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:36 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nynaeve View Post
It's not just about socialization. It's actually part of the DPCA breed standard, a dog who gets agressive to other dogs in the ring is not disqualified:

DPCA | The Doberman | Standard

"Energetic, watchful, determined alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman.

Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness."


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Originally Posted by Repsol12 View Post
I dont know much, if anything, about conformation showing, but I do know that if a dog displays aggression toward the judge, owner/handler, or other dogs then they are immediately deemed viscious and removed from the ring. If male/male aggression is such a problem, then AKC and other organizations shows would end up one big brawl when it came to showing the males. Especially since they have to be intact so the testosterone would be flowing. Yet, thats not really an issue I have found in my research. It is almost irrelevant about all of the AKC CH titling stuff for me though, because that isnt my intention (Im not ruling it out though).
Not so, as evidenced above. This is a working breed originally intended to protect its person quite fiercely. I'm not saying it can't make a good service dog, but I do think there's a reason you do not see many of them in this role.

The second bolded part seems counter intuitive to me: you're going to a reputable breeder who by accounts seems to breed true to type including temperament. You cannot hope then that adequate socialization will prevent this trait--she's deliberately breeding (as all good breeders are) for the true Doberman temperament which can be rather sharp and isn't inherently submissive.

I have one of those males that I cannot trust around other assertive dogs. He's okay with some submissive females, but I absolutely can't trust him around other males and assertive females. He doesn't necessarily want to start trouble, but if he detects any sort of challenge at all (and this can be very subtle) he is more than willing to answer that call.

I think you're potentially setting yourself up for some heartache, and perhaps unnecessarily so when some minor changes, which are still possible at this point, could be made.

I do wish good luck to you and your future pup.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Thank you very much for chiming in. As I mentioned in a previous post, its very disheartening to be excited about this new phase of my (and my family to include Bill and Steve) life only to come here and be slammed with "youre gonna regret it" and all the other negative things. I thought these forums were to promote the breed, not continue to demonize the animals.

I dont know much, if anything, about conformation showing, but I do know that if a dog displays aggression toward the judge, owner/handler, or other dogs then they are immediately deemed viscious and removed from the ring. If male/male aggression is such a problem, then AKC and other organizations shows would end up one big brawl when it came to showing the males. Especially since they have to be intact so the testosterone would be flowing. Yet, thats not really an issue I have found in my research. It is almost irrelevant about all of the AKC CH titling stuff for me though, because that isnt my intention (Im not ruling it out though).


Kevin is going to be a great service dog, I have no doubts. I know the stock he comes from and Ive seen the pedigrees and titles his lineage has in working sports. We will be working for the titles and certifications that I believe will be good for him, and help me with my goals for owning a service animal. CGC STAR, CGC, TT, obedience titles, schutzhund titles, tracking, and SAR are the things I have an interest in. These will all help me tremendously with my disabilities, and be great things to get Kevin involved in and to help promote the breed.

Laurel is everything you said she is and more. She is super sweet, didnt pressure me to buy, in fact Id say she made me work to prove to her I'll be a good owner. Research on both sides went into our mutual decision to become breeder/clients. She wanted to see everything I had on both my dogs, she asked a ton of questions (and still does), she wanted to see everything on myself short of a credit report. She did her due diligence on me, and I have done mine on her. I am going to be working with her for probably the next two years or so with training Kevin since she has extensive experience in some of the things I need and want.

Did you read anything else or research any more about this issue? With people who actually know this breed? Even your local schutzhund club will tell you multiple males in one house is a bad idea.

The paragraph I bolded is completely wrong. Training and socialization will allow a male dog in a ring to be perfectly fine with another male dog in the ring. That is a training issue. LIVING with another dog is completely different.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Did you read anything else or research any more about this issue? With people who actually know this breed? Even your local schutzhund club will tell you multiple males in one house is a bad idea.

The paragraph I bolded is completely wrong. Training and socialization will allow a male dog in a ring to be perfectly fine with another male dog in the ring. That is a training issue. LIVING with another dog is completely different.

Pay attention to this post, especially the second paragraph. Two males live in this house, father and son, it's a way of life for us to keep them separated which most people are not prepared to do. I would never ever trust two male dogs together. I am absolutely in LOVE with both of them, but there is a couple who fell in love with the son, and I am actually considering placing him with them because of male on male aggression. I probably won't do it because I love him too much, but once the older one is gone I will never have two boys in my house at the same time again. The people on this forum are only trying to help, they are telling you this for your own safety and well being and the dogs. Please listen, there is a good amount of knowledge on this forum.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:15 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I have one of those males that I cannot trust around other assertive dogs. He's okay with some submissive females, but I absolutely can't trust him around other males and assertive females. He doesn't necessarily want to start trouble, but if he detects any sort of challenge at all (and this can be very subtle) he is more than willing to answer that call.
My Hans is just like this too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:31 PM   #35 (permalink)
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OH, and my boys are very easy going too, but still I would never let them be together, I compare it to having two loaded guns. Both get along great with other females.. You could have no problems at all for years and then one day it happens, don't do it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:09 PM   #36 (permalink)
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For the last time, I appreciate what you all are saying, but this is how it is. If Im wrong, well, sucks for me not you. Im done with this thread as it is nothing more than a terse warning and essentially an attack against both me and my chosen breeder.

Hopefully in posts to come things will be better and more conducive to productive converstations for everyone involved.

Thank you
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:30 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Repsol12 View Post
For the last time, I appreciate what you all are saying, but this is how it is. If Im wrong, well, sucks for me not you. Im done with this thread as it is nothing more than a terse warning and essentially an attack against both me and my chosen breeder.

Hopefully in posts to come things will be better and more conducive to productive converstations for everyone involved.

Thank you
Yeah, and if you're wrong it also sucks for the dogs, and they are the ones we care about the most. Wonder how you would feel if one killed the other. I'm done too, you seem like you just want an endorsement of what you're doing, you won't get it here. Unless you are willing to keep the boys separated but I have a feeling you won't do this. Sheesh, we're just trying to help you, but mostly the dogs.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:16 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Yeah, and if you're wrong it also sucks for the dogs, and they are the ones we care about the most. Wonder how you would feel if one killed the other. I'm done too, you seem like you just want an endorsement of what you're doing, you won't get it here. Unless you are willing to keep the boys separated but I have a feeling you won't do this. Sheesh, we're just trying to help you, but mostly the dogs.
Why dont you give me your name and number and when it becomes a problem, since it definitely will according to you, ill give you a call, tell you that you were right and i was wrong, and ill ship the dog off to you so that you care for it appropriately. or....i can just send you the pieces of animals that are left after they both destroy each other since that is what will inevitably happen? sound like a deal? i just want to do whats best according to you.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:55 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Why dont you give me your name and number and when it becomes a problem, since it definitely will according to you, ill give you a call, tell you that you were right and i was wrong, and ill ship the dog off to you so that you care for it appropriately. or....i can just send you the pieces of animals that are left after they both destroy each other since that is what will inevitably happen? sound like a deal? i just want to do whats best according to you.
Wow, all that unnecessary attitude over people genuinely trying to help, with years of knowledge and first hand experience.....what a shame. Not knowing everything or always being right isn't the end of the world.

Good luck! You'll need it....
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:53 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I have an SDiT, a male, and he is exactly as you were warned. He IS intolerant of males.

Yet I can show him in conformation, work him in Rally and he won't do more than be a bit of a jerk trying to get past my attention enough to stare them down. That is extensive training, and understanding that he is a bossy male Dobe, and he will NEVER be reliable with other males. I don't allow them off leash to play with him, I don't let him loose in a dog park, I don't allow meet and greets with other dominant males and I very much will not own another male.

When working, he can be approached or even nosed up the rear by another male dog and he won't react. If he wasn't working, that would be cue for a big scuffle.

You seem to think that training will mitigate the SSA entirely or prevent it from even appearing. Wrong. Training will not get rid of SSA, it will merely make them tolerable to live with while they are actively under control. When they're loose? Fugeddabudit.

As an example.. last rally class, there was a bitch who was at the beginning of her season being worked (Yes, we train with bitches in heat. My trainer is a professional handler as well as obedience/rally trainer and expects absolute control of our dogs). Yes they were under control, in stays and not being difficult. However Evan and a male Aussie would have been at each other if we hadn't been actively working with them. It would have been on like donkey kong.

Seriously. Don't be stupid. These people know more about these dogs than you have ever researched, and are trying to give you advice that may SAVE YOUR DOG'S LIFE. Or at the very least, keep him from washing out as an SD and wasting alot of your time, money and emotional investment. Do you really want to spend 3 years training your SD, only to have him washed out permanently or euthanized for getting into it with your boxer?
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:16 PM   #41 (permalink)
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For the last time, I appreciate what you all are saying, but this is how it is. If Im wrong, well, sucks for me not you. Im done with this thread as it is nothing more than a terse warning and essentially an attack against both me and my chosen breeder.

Hopefully in posts to come things will be better and more conducive to productive converstations for everyone involved.

Thank you

I'm not going to speak to or for anyone else, but I invite you to re-read my posts to you on this thread, and re-evaluate if you feel you are being fair in your characterization of them.

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I have an SDiT, a male, and he is exactly as you were warned. He IS intolerant of males.

Yet I can show him in conformation, work him in Rally and he won't do more than be a bit of a jerk trying to get past my attention enough to stare them down. That is extensive training, and understanding that he is a bossy male Dobe, and he will NEVER be reliable with other males. I don't allow them off leash to play with him, I don't let him loose in a dog park, I don't allow meet and greets with other dominant males and I very much will not own another male.

When working, he can be approached or even nosed up the rear by another male dog and he won't react. If he wasn't working, that would be cue for a big scuffle.

You seem to think that training will mitigate the SSA entirely or prevent it from even appearing. Wrong. Training will not get rid of SSA, it will merely make them tolerable to live with while they are actively under control. When they're loose? Fugeddabudit.

As an example.. last rally class, there was a bitch who was at the beginning of her season being worked (Yes, we train with bitches in heat. My trainer is a professional handler as well as obedience/rally trainer and expects absolute control of our dogs). Yes they were under control, in stays and not being difficult. However Evan and a male Aussie would have been at each other if we hadn't been actively working with them. It would have been on like donkey kong.

Seriously. Don't be stupid. These people know more about these dogs than you have ever researched, and are trying to give you advice that may SAVE YOUR DOG'S LIFE. Or at the very least, keep him from washing out as an SD and wasting alot of your time, money and emotional investment. Do you really want to spend 3 years training your SD, only to have him washed out permanently or euthanized for getting into it with your boxer?
My red boy was the bestest service dog ever. By about age two, as he matured and was coming into his own, I clearly saw him get less and less tolerant of male dogs in particular, and rude dogs in general.

While he was super-well-trained, and super in his work ethic, I do not think living with another active male would have been pleasant for anyone. My very elderly saintly Lab, who was my retired service dog, could've gotten along with a rabid Anaconda, so that was a non-issue, but I would not have felt comfortable intro'ing another young, healthy working breed male into the situation.

I dislike the attitude you're displaying, OP, not that that likely matters to you, but even more so, I dislike folks who come on--folks who RARELY ever contribute anything else here--and help stir the pot, esp. when those folks may not have the most stellar reputation themselves.

I sincerely hope everything works out for you and all the dogs involved, no sarcasm.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:07 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Congrats on your future pup.

Hopefully, the errors on their site are more novice mistakes, and not deliberate attempts to mislead.

I agree that finding a breeder you "click" with is very important, and hope this works out well for you.
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I hope you'll share puppy stories and pics, when you get him. LOVE the name, btw
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I prefer working with a male Service Dog, as well.

Try to just carry an umbrella, okay?

These are sincere, well-intentioned, cautionary comments from other members here--and you do seem to realize that, even if it's not as pleasant a start here as you'd hoped for.

As with any forum that is diverse and active, there are always going to be a few "hot button" topics, and the male-male thing is one of them.

I am actually not one of the more strident voices here about that, as I've successfully kept multiple males over many years, but never two Doberman males.

In fact, I've always made the decisions with great care, taking into consideration the temperament and tendencies of the resident male, and of the prospective new male.

Boxers, as you know, are also a working breed, and *can be* same sex aggressive as well. Folks are just worried for the future of both human and dogs.

If you are very experienced in reading subtle changes in dog body language, you meet and exceed the needs of all dogs involved, you have expert training support and assistance, AND the right dog is picked for you, it could work.

Just try to make sure all that is truly in place, and also know that even all the training in the world does not change who the dogs are.

I know it would be heartbreaking to have to rehome somebody, so just have contingency plans in place, in case there should be a problem as your Service Dog matures.

Good luck, and I do hope you come back and update us.
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I'm not going to speak to or for anyone else, but I invite you to re-read my posts to you on this thread, and re-evaluate if you feel you are being fair in your characterization of them.



My red boy was the bestest service dog ever. By about age two, as he matured and was coming into his own, I clearly saw him get less and less tolerant of male dogs in particular, and rude dogs in general.

While he was super-well-trained, and super in his work ethic, I do not think living with another active male would have been pleasant for anyone. My very elderly saintly Lab, who was my retired service dog, could've gotten along with a rabid Anaconda, so that was a non-issue, but I would not have felt comfortable intro'ing another young, healthy working breed male into the situation.

I dislike the attitude you're displaying, OP, not that that likely matters to you, but even more so, I dislike folks who come on--folks who RARELY ever contribute anything else here--and help stir the pot, esp. when those folks may not have the most stellar reputation themselves.

I sincerely hope everything works out for you and all the dogs involved, no sarcasm.
YOU and YOUR posts have been fine. You were positive with the first few posts about my new dog and me being excited about it, his name, and so forth.

After that you joined in the mix, but not in a rude way. It seemed like you were trying to mediate between "them" and me; this is good solid information that "they" have and I should listen to. But what I do is my decision and something I should tread lightly with.

Im not sure exactly how to ready your last post but I can tell you that I didnt come here to stir up $h!t and take off. I think my attitude towards everyone had been cool, calm, and collected up until my last post. I have accepted everyones input even though it is all coming across as an attack against both my breeder and myself.

I cannot back out of the deal now. And some of you will say "yes you can, you always can, blah blah blah" but the fact is, I cant. 1) Ive paid for the dog. 2) I committed to the breeder and as a veteran and a good person, I dont go back on my word. 3) I have had to legally fight this issue to get the accommodations I need to have him with me at school. Its done, I have him, thats it. There is no converstation to be had past this. You even said it yourself that your lab would get along with a rabid anaconda so it wasnt a problem....THATS BILL!! If it becomes a problem, do any of you really believe a diabled veteran with two other dogs as pets, in need of a service animal would really allow the two males to hurt each other?! I understand none of you know me personally, (which is another reason you have all pissed me off judging me and saying what i can and or cant handle without having a clue about me) but that is not something I would ever allow to happen. If it becomes a problem, then I will deal with it when I cross that bridge. If I have to 100% supervise, then I will, if I have to rotate while we are at home, I will. As has been mentioned before though, pease stop wihpping a dead horse.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:07 PM   #43 (permalink)
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YOU and YOUR posts have been fine. You were positive with the first few posts about my new dog and me being excited about it, his name, and so forth.

After that you joined in the mix, but not in a rude way. It seemed like you were trying to mediate between "them" and me; this is good solid information that "they" have and I should listen to. But what I do is my decision and something I should tread lightly with.

Im not sure exactly how to ready your last post but I can tell you that I didnt come here to stir up $h!t and take off. I think my attitude towards everyone had been cool, calm, and collected up until my last post. I have accepted everyones input even though it is all coming across as an attack against both my breeder and myself.

I cannot back out of the deal now. And some of you will say "yes you can, you always can, blah blah blah" but the fact is, I cant. 1) Ive paid for the dog. 2) I committed to the breeder and as a veteran and a good person, I dont go back on my word. 3) I have had to legally fight this issue to get the accommodations I need to have him with me at school. Its done, I have him, thats it. There is no converstation to be had past this. You even said it yourself that your lab would get along with a rabid anaconda so it wasnt a problem....THATS BILL!! If it becomes a problem, do any of you really believe a diabled veteran with two other dogs as pets, in need of a service animal would really allow the two males to hurt each other?! I understand none of you know me personally, (which is another reason you have all pissed me off judging me and saying what i can and or cant handle without having a clue about me) but that is not something I would ever allow to happen. If it becomes a problem, then I will deal with it when I cross that bridge. If I have to 100% supervise, then I will, if I have to rotate while we are at home, I will. As has been mentioned before though, pease stop wihpping a dead horse.
Sigh.

Yes, I was trying to help, congratulate, inform, and mediate.

My bad, for not being clearer in my post, about the pot-stirring. I was referring to Dobs4ever, who could have simply posted a positive recommendation on your breeder, if that is her experience, but instead encouraged you in your already-deteriorating attitude here.

I think it's a shame when longtime members, disgruntled or not, encourage newly joined members to hate on DT.

It's a good community. With great folks, and some folks you may end up wanting to have just very small doses of, but it's the most accurate and informative Doberman forum out there, IMO, and it'd be a shame if you went away with a burr under your saddle.

Again, love the name, hope it works out, post puppy pics if you so choose. Peace
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:30 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I'd like to preface this by saying you're going to do what you want to do and I'm legitimately fine with that, I'm the kind of person who will stand by and let people do what they want, tell them why it's bad if I disagree, but in the end it's their life not mine so their choice and I won't stand in their way. I'm just that kind of person.

That being said, the issue I have is that while it seems like you grasp ssa and the info being given that your attitude just still is slightly off, hey I may be interpreting wrong but I just want to make something clear before I congratulate you on your new puppy and wish you the best, really!

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. You even said it yourself that your lab would get along with a rabid anaconda so it wasn't a problem....THAT'S BILL!!

If it becomes a problem, do any of you really believe a disabled veteran with two other dogs as pets, in need of a service animal would really allow the two males to hurt each other?! ......... but that is not something I would ever allow to happen. If it becomes a problem, then I will deal with it when I cross that bridge.

If I have to 100% supervise, then I will, if I have to rotate while we are at home, I will. As has been mentioned before though, please stop whipping a dead horse.
A) as for rfr's bill quote...heck I had a lab the same way, SHE was bomb proof, SHE wouldn't start anything....that's not the problem, it in NO way means that the dog who IS ssa won't go after that dog because that dog is the gender/hormones it is, regardless of how steady and non aggressive the "bill" dog is. My mom's dog and mabel get along great, she's a total "bill" ultra submissive, carefree etc...that hasn't stopped mabel from taking offense to her existence, granted she's reactive not ssa but the point is still the same, hannah can "do no wrong" by all true definitions but mabel doesn't see it that way. (well "didn't" we've thankfully had no fights in months but that's it's own story)

B) This is the part I want to clarify your interpretation on before I wish you luck and ask for puppy pictures when you pick him up. (the rest of the bolded)
You make it sound like you won't let ssa happen, like you'll never let any of your dogs harm each other period end of story....but i'm sorry if that's really how you see it you are far to confident. I was that cocky once and I had to break up a fight because of it. NEVER think you can stop it from ever happening, ssa or in my case dog reactive dogs are who they are and it's a big thick line in the sand with them, I like you or I don't...and if they don't...well I don't have a messed up thumb joint and my own dog with a scar on the top of her head and another with one on her leg for no reason. I thought I could make it work and I was wrong I got cocky and thought I knew better and me and two dogs payed for it with thankfully minimal damage. I don't think that way anymore and my dog has had no fights since, she can only interact with a certain type of dog and I don't push that.

Look I'm not trying to whip a dead horse, I just want to make sure that since you are insistent in pursuing this that you have the right frame of mind, you'll hear it said that people can do it, but trust me it isn't easy at all and it can turn deadly in a millisecond, it's never something most anyone would choose to do for some pretty serious reasons!
You can't be cocky, you can't be not paying attention EVER, and you can't think you can make it work with training and etc... if he's ssa, that's who he is and always will be. If he displays ANY early stage signs, separate them then and KEEP them separated...

Good luck...
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:55 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Repsol12 View Post
Im sure the mistakes on the site are exactly that, just typos so to speak.
I can't get past the "Wobblers - clear by parentage" they have on most of their dogs. I'm not sure if they're being purposely misleading or don't have even a basic understanding of an important disease in the breed. Neither is indicative of a quality breeder.

DCM, the breed plague, does not even appear to be on their radar.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:51 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I cannot back out of the deal now. And some of you will say "yes you can, you always can, blah blah blah" but the fact is, I cant. 1) Ive paid for the dog. 2) I committed to the breeder and as a veteran and a good person, I dont go back on my word. 3) I have had to legally fight this issue to get the accommodations I need to have him with me at school. Its done, I have him, thats it. There is no converstation to be had past this.
Repsol,

I am not saying don't, cant, won't, your headed for absolute doom, etc.

All I want to point out are the two things you should be aware of going into this. Like I said, I have 4 male dogs in my family pack...two are large working males. That is just what I chose to work with, (though now I can't wait to get a female when the time is right). I knew what it would take going into this ordeal and I haven't had any problems because of that. The large males are separated at all times...period...no chances.

Second thing is the health. I've already said all I want to say about that.

I wish I had come here and asked questions before getting my first dobe. I'm just trying to help and tell you and other people getting into this breed the things I wish I had heard first.

So thats it...good luck with your puppy. Hope you post updates here.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:25 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
I'd like to preface this by saying you're going to do what you want to do and I'm legitimately fine with that, I'm the kind of person who will stand by and let people do what they want, tell them why it's bad if I disagree, but in the end it's their life not mine so their choice and I won't stand in their way. I'm just that kind of person.

That being said, the issue I have is that while it seems like you grasp ssa and the info being given that your attitude just still is slightly off, hey I may be interpreting wrong but I just want to make something clear before I congratulate you on your new puppy and wish you the best, really!



A) as for rfr's bill quote...heck I had a lab the same way, SHE was bomb proof, SHE wouldn't start anything....that's not the problem, it in NO way means that the dog who IS ssa won't go after that dog because that dog is the gender/hormones it is, regardless of how steady and non aggressive the "bill" dog is. My mom's dog and mabel get along great, she's a total "bill" ultra submissive, carefree etc...that hasn't stopped mabel from taking offense to her existence, granted she's reactive not ssa but the point is still the same, hannah can "do no wrong" by all true definitions but mabel doesn't see it that way. (well "didn't" we've thankfully had no fights in months but that's it's own story)

B) This is the part I want to clarify your interpretation on before I wish you luck and ask for puppy pictures when you pick him up. (the rest of the bolded)
You make it sound like you won't let ssa happen, like you'll never let any of your dogs harm each other period end of story....but i'm sorry if that's really how you see it you are far to confident. I was that cocky once and I had to break up a fight because of it. NEVER think you can stop it from ever happening, ssa or in my case dog reactive dogs are who they are and it's a big thick line in the sand with them, I like you or I don't...and if they don't...well I don't have a messed up thumb joint and my own dog with a scar on the top of her head and another with one on her leg for no reason. I thought I could make it work and I was wrong I got cocky and thought I knew better and me and two dogs payed for it with thankfully minimal damage. I don't think that way anymore and my dog has had no fights since, she can only interact with a certain type of dog and I don't push that.


Look I'm not trying to whip a dead horse, I just want to make sure that since you are insistent in pursuing this that you have the right frame of mind, you'll hear it said that people can do it, but trust me it isn't easy at all and it can turn deadly in a millisecond, it's never something most anyone would choose to do for some pretty serious reasons!
You can't be cocky, you can't be not paying attention EVER, and you can't think you can make it work with training and etc... if he's ssa, that's who he is and always will be. If he displays ANY early stage signs, separate them then and KEEP them separated...

Good luck...
I wasnt meaning to sound cocky and say "it will never come to a fight, ever." I understand that there will be times where things can escalate at a moments notice, but I will always be close enough that no real damage should ever be done. The first 2-3 years especially because Kevin is going to literally be at my side 24/7. Since I have to train him to eliminate on command, he wont even be outside on his own with Bill and Steve. Playing in the house would be the only time I can foresee and if they went at it, Id be close by to intervene. I dont think I can stop a mental issue; if its there, its there. Im just saying, you guys have given me help as to what I will need to do to mitigate the issue if it arises, and I have no issues jumping into a dog fight.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:29 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Repsol12 View Post
I wasnt meaning to sound cocky and say "it will never come to a fight, ever." I understand that there will be times where things can escalate at a moments notice, but I will always be close enough that no real damage should ever be done. The first 2-3 years especially because Kevin is going to literally be at my side 24/7. Since I have to train him to eliminate on command, he wont even be outside on his own with Bill and Steve. Playing in the house would be the only time I can foresee and if they went at it, Id be close by to intervene. I dont think I can stop a mental issue; if its there, its there. Im just saying, you guys have given me help as to what I will need to do to mitigate the issue if it arises, and I have no issues jumping into a dog fight.
I am asking not judging Have you ever seen a true dog fight? Have you ever tried to break one up? it's not nearly as easy as it might appear. Sadly I've seen TRUE dog/dog fights and trying to get a small 40 lb GSP off a lab mix was nearly impossible. The lab almost died by the time I got her off. It is no easy task to remove a dog from another dog when there is INTENT to fight or the other dog is fighting back. In my case, the lab mix was trying to flee but the GSP wouldn't let go no matter what I did. i've seen how strong a full grown male Dobe is. I can't imagine being able to break up a true dog fight with one or two full grown adult BIG dogs.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:38 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Repsol12 View Post
I wasnt meaning to sound cocky and say "it will never come to a fight, ever." I understand that there will be times where things can escalate at a moments notice, but I will always be close enough that no real damage should ever be done. The first 2-3 years especially because Kevin is going to literally be at my side 24/7. Since I have to train him to eliminate on command, he wont even be outside on his own with Bill and Steve. Playing in the house would be the only time I can foresee and if they went at it, Id be close by to intervene. I dont think I can stop a mental issue; if its there, its there. Im just saying, you guys have given me help as to what I will need to do to mitigate the issue if it arises, and I have no issues jumping into a dog fight.
From how it sounds kevin will be attached you could honestly crate and rotate from the start and save yourself any and almost all trouble....

As to the cocky-ness, i'll disagree, somewhat, and heck it could just be phrasing but shadowing adaras post, never think you can stop what's basically instinctual fate.
I have had to break up more fights at work, at home, involving my dog and not my dog than I ever thought or would have wished for, and frankly it sucks sucks sucks! I'd never have thought before my first fight that it would take so long, be so hard, and still end so badly yet not (i say not, only! because they both lived and aside from a personal injury of minimal significance I am untouched) and I've broken these all up ALONE! and it's beyond difficult.

Again I just want you to be in a correct and highly realistic mind frame. Talking to vet/kennel/general dog people in real life who have broken up fights, and seeing real videos of non human caused (aka dog fighting) dog fights and what it takes to break them up is also something I'm going to highly recommend. Again it can be done, heck it's part of my job to manage to intact male dobermans amongst a kennel full of other various breed and neutered/not fixed males, and if you're going to I certainly can't stop you I just want to be as helpful as possible and make sure you grasp what you're getting into.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:27 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Adara View Post
I am asking not judging Have you ever seen a true dog fight? Have you ever tried to break one up? it's not nearly as easy as it might appear. Sadly I've seen TRUE dog/dog fights and trying to get a small 40 lb GSP off a lab mix was nearly impossible. The lab almost died by the time I got her off. It is no easy task to remove a dog from another dog when there is INTENT to fight or the other dog is fighting back. In my case, the lab mix was trying to flee but the GSP wouldn't let go no matter what I did. i've seen how strong a full grown male Dobe is. I can't imagine being able to break up a true dog fight with one or two full grown adult BIG dogs.
This. A real fight, even knowing the proper "technique" to try to seperate the dog's, even with two people there, is terrifying. I don't think most people really get the difference between "play that has gotten out of hand" and a real fight. I've only been witness to two such incidences, in a shelter setting, and it is absolutely horrific.
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