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Old 09-27-2012, 11:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Show Dogs - informational purposes ONLY

Hey, just out of curiosity, I was wondering about why a dog needed to be "in tact" to be a show dog? Or do I have that wrong and it is not a necessity? I don't want to show my pup, but I was just wondering about this. I hear so many stories about leaving them in tact or not until it kind of confused me. I mean if the "show" people leave them in tact but it is not good for the bred then why do it? Or if it is good to leave them in tact unless there is a medical issue why not do that?

I plan to leave my bitch (still can't get used to typing that LOL) in tact for as long as possible until my vet and I think it is a health risk for her or something and then having her spayed. If someone could maybe shed some light on this topic for me that would be awesome. Again I'm not showing my pup, i'm just interested in this because well it's interesting to me... :-)

Oh also, with show dogs I've seen where they have the dog shows like on t.v., but I was wondering are the dogs in the US held to the same standard as the ones in other countries? I know in the US the males have a certain height range they have to be within and the females, but is that the same for the other places? I have not been able to see if there is an "international" standard for dobermans or just a national one which varies from place to place.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The reason they need to be left intact for showing is because showing is looking at the conformation of breeding stock. If the dog is spayed/neutered then it is not breeding stock.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Oh and the standard for height is pretty similar the world over.

AKC - Height at the withers: Dogs 26 to 28 inches, ideal about 27 inches; Bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 inches.
FCI - SIZE Height at the highest point of withers: Males: 68 to 72cms. Bitches: 63 to 68cms. Medium size desirable.
NZKC - Ideal height at withers: dogs: 69 cms (27 ins); bitches: 65 cms (251/2 ins). Considerable deviation from this ideal undesirable.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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the purpose of dogs shows is to have dogs and bitches 'looked over' by an unbiased judge, and the judge compares what is in the ring against the AKC standard. the judge is looking at the conformation/gait/temperament of the dog, and chooses the 'best fit,' the best of breed. it is the way we evaluate our breeding stock. therefore, those dogs and bitches that excel in conformation, will be used to pass their genes/traits onto the next generation, so they must be kept intact to do this. otherwise, there would be no reason to participate in dog shows and have your dog/bitch examined if there is no way a dog or bitch can reproduce.

you mention that your pup arrives on oct 5th. where is she coming from? i would look in your contract in regards to when she is required to be spayed, assuming you are buying a companion pup and not a show prospect (assuming pet since you asked why it is important to title/show dogs). there are various opinions on early spay versus leaving a bitch intact to fully mature. this should be specified with your breeder. reputable breeders will share their experiences with you and know what is best for their pups. early spay has its pros and cons, and remaining intact has its pros and cons. but remember, if you choose to let her mature, you will be going through a few heat cycles and those can be yucky. you might have every dog within 5 miles of your house parked in your front yard for 3 weeks. it's really based on your experience with dogs.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acarr1983 View Post
Hey, just out of curiosity, I was wondering about why a dog needed to be "in tact" to be a show dog? Or do I have that wrong and it is not a necessity? I don't want to show my pup, but I was just wondering about this. I hear so many stories about leaving them in tact or not until it kind of confused me. I mean if the "show" people leave them in tact but it is not good for the bred then why do it? Or if it is good to leave them in tact unless there is a medical issue why not do that?

Like others said, dog shows are supposed to evaluations of breeding stock, which is why show dogs are intact. An intact bitch can take a lot of mangement in order to avoid an accidental breeding. My GSD rescue was not allowed to go any further than my fenced yard, with me out with her, for the past week and a half. For most pet owners, spaying is probably the best option. (Leo's getting done in December, by the way)

I plan to leave my bitch (still can't get used to typing that LOL) in tact for as long as possible until my vet and I think it is a health risk for her or something and then having her spayed. If someone could maybe shed some light on this topic for me that would be awesome. Again I'm not showing my pup, i'm just interested in this because well it's interesting to me... :-)

There are lots of opinions as to "when" is the "best" time to spay, ranging from 8 weeks to never. Personally, if I never have to deal with a bitch in season again, it will be too soon.

Oh also, with show dogs I've seen where they have the dog shows like on t.v., but I was wondering are the dogs in the US held to the same standard as the ones in other countries? I know in the US the males have a certain height range they have to be within and the females, but is that the same for the other places? I have not been able to see if there is an "international" standard for dobermans or just a national one which varies from place to place.

If you want to show a dog, it must conform to the standard for the organization you are showing in. Like Disco said, the standards are pretty similar for Dobes, no matter where you are. Some breeds are different, in that what is an allowed color/marking/size variation in one country is a disqualification/fault in another.
By the way, UKC offers Altered Conformation classes.
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Last edited by Rosemary; 09-28-2012 at 09:57 AM.. Reason: can't spell
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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A lot of show people are very happy about the day that their dogs are done showing and/or breeding and we can spay/neuter, too. When you take a look around my house, usually the majority of my dogs are spayed/neutered because they're done with showing/breeding.

Intact males are at a fairly high risk for prostate problems, and intact females risk pyometra every time they go through a season. Pyometra is a potentially deadly uterine infection. I've been through it once with one of our girls - her uterus was 8 lbs of pus when they took it out. They have to be super careful to get it out without rupturing it. That surgery cost over $3300. A regular spay is wayyyy less expensive and wayyyy less dangerous than that.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acarr1983 View Post
Hey, just out of curiosity, I was wondering about why a dog needed to be "in tact" to be a show dog? Or do I have that wrong and it is not a necessity? I don't want to show my pup, but I was just wondering about this. I hear so many stories about leaving them in tact or not until it kind of confused me. I mean if the "show" people leave them in tact but it is not good for the bred then why do it? Or if it is good to leave them in tact unless there is a medical issue why not do that?
It's been pretty well stated already but Conformation shows are a measure of breeding stock. They are designed to evaluate the animals and pick the ones who are the best representatives of the breed. These great representatives of the breed should be able to go on and produce the next generation. It is kind of pointless to give a "stamp of approval" for breeding when the dog can't pass on it's genes. This ideology and the rule comes from way back when shows where just starting.

When it comes to leaving them intact beyond their show careers, some choose to leave them intact and others are happy to get them neutered or spayed. I am HAPPY the day I can get my bitches spayed. Going through seasons can be pain, the bitchiness and mood swings that can come with it can be a royal pain. Plus I compete in performance events, bitches in season cannot compete. Trying to plan entries around when they will be in season is a gamble (one which I lost this weekend- it gets expensive to just throw away entry fees). Their mood swings before and after their season make it difficult to compete or train too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acarr1983 View Post
I plan to leave my bitch (still can't get used to typing that LOL) in tact for as long as possible until my vet and I think it is a health risk for her or something and then having her spayed. If someone could maybe shed some light on this topic for me that would be awesome. Again I'm not showing my pup, i'm just interested in this because well it's interesting to me... :-)
Everyone will have a slightly different opinion on when to spay or neuter (if at all), and you could probably find just as many articles supporting differing opinions, along with what risks are increased and decreased with each option. My personal opinion is I would prefer to wait until at least two, it allows the dog to mature physically. What I recommend to people though depends on how well they can handle an intact dog, and the dog itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acarr1983 View Post
Oh also, with show dogs I've seen where they have the dog shows like on t.v., but I was wondering are the dogs in the US held to the same standard as the ones in other countries? I know in the US the males have a certain height range they have to be within and the females, but is that the same for the other places? I have not been able to see if there is an "international" standard for dobermans or just a national one which varies from place to place.
There are a few different standards around the world that different countries/clubs adhere too, but the differences in the standards are very minor, they all call for essentially the same dog. You will see a difference in "types" between different regions, but that comes more from different tastes and interpretations of the standard in the region than it does from differences in the actual written standard. All of the Doberman(n) standards have nearly identical height requirements with small differences.

The different standards: Some of these are identical except for changes that have been made in regards to cropping and docking.

The American Standard (set by the DPCA) used by AKC and UDC - Doberman Pinscher Page
Canadian Kennel Club - http://www.ckc.ca/en/Portals/0/pdf/breeds/DBP.pdf

New Zealand Kennel Club - NZKC - Breed Standard - Dobermann - Utility
Australian National Kennel Council - Australian National Kennel Council (same as NZ I believe)
The Kennel Club (United Kingdom) - The Kennel Club

FCI Standard (FCI has 80+ member countries) - http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/143GB2003_en.doc
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
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They only have to be intact if you are showing in the conformation breed ring - because the whole point of it is to evaluate your breeding stock against other breeders breeding stock. The dogs in the breed ring should be a representation of the very best of what a breeder produces.

Dogs that are shown in obedience, rally, agility, flyball, dock diving.... etc..... can be spayed and neutered. These are titles that do not necessarily lead to breeding and do not prove the conformation worthiness of the dog. I know lots of people who show rescues with AKC ILP numbers in performance events.
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