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Old 12-13-2007, 06:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Interesting breeding question.

I'm wondering why so many people look down on home breeding. I'm not talking about an acre of 100 unhealthy dogs in kennels breeding constantly, either, which seems what a lot of people think about when they hear about anything other than titled dogs breeding. What I'm about about is a person with a nice, healthy, correct Doberman who'd like to "experience" having a litter. What's wrong with that? I know the point of breeding is to improve the breed (although many people have strayed from that), but is a titled dog only capable of producing worthy pups? With that question, now ask what even IS a title? If the person who wants to breed has a health tested dog with a great temperment that fits a kennel club's standards, but has never showed, why is it not worthy?
And, another good question to raise is about judges. Judges are humans. Humans that have favorites, humans that hear rumours, humans that simply have a mind of their own. I know judges are required to dismiss any information and only focus on the dogs in the ring, but can anyone really do that? I'm not saying all judges are biast, but sometimes I'm sure you showers ask (from a view of knowing the standards and what's being looked at) why that dog over another?
And lastly, what does prancing around in a ring have anything to do with chasing down people trying to avoid taxes? Shouldn't a dog be judge on worth by abilty to do what it was bred for? I'm not dissing showing, just for the record, I love it and if I ever find myself with a "worthy" dog I'd do it...but then there's that question again.

So, there ya go. This is something I think about sometimes and this is a pretty good place to hopefully get a variety of answers.

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Old 12-13-2007, 06:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
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What I'm about about is a person with a nice, healthy, correct Doberman who'd like to "experience" having a litter. What's wrong with that?
If you aren't involved in competing with your dog than you simply aren't qualified to determine whether or not it is a nice enough dog to be bred. It takes many years of showing to develope an educated enough eye to be able to critique a dog well, and in all of those years of showing you become very familiar with a very large variety of different peoples lines across the country. You simply will NEVER have this knowledge unless you are involved in the sport. The same holds true for working lines, you will have no experience and knowledge to base an opinion of a sporting dog's worthiness to be bred unless you are familiar with the sport and the dog has been tested in the sport. You will also not have the experience of everyone else's lines and what you would consider their strengths and weaknesses. You can get a healthy, pretty dog with a great personality a million times over at a shelter or from doberman rescue, but it doesn't mean they would be widely accepted as breeding worthy.

Quote:
but is a titled dog only capable of producing worthy pups?
Absolutely not. A lot of really nice untitled dogs are bred by really good breeders. The difference is those breeders know what they are doing, know thier pedigrees and personally know the dogs behind them, and they have the experience and knowledge to know whether or not that dog is still worthy or not of being bred despite the lack of a title. There are a lot of reasons a particular dog wouldn't finish a title, not all of them make them unworthy to be bred. Somebody that doesn't have years of experience in a competitive venue simply wouldn't be able to accurately and honestly assess that.

I've found it's nearly impossible to explain to people that don't compete how long it takes to really learn the breed and develope a good eye. Talk to bagsjr about his experience at the dog show last weekend and how he said "they all look alike". They do indeed, unless you have been doing it for years and know what you are looking at. Case in point, one of my old whippets Sophie. She was a stunning beauty to an untrained eye. Out of all of my dogs she always got the most oohs and aahs and compliments from non-competing dog people. She could stop traffic she was so aesthetically beautiful and she dropped jaws everywhere she went. She also had an absolutely fabulous temperament and I loved her dearly. Both of her parents were very well known finished champions, she had an incredible pedigree. But she was most definitely not quality enough to ever be bred. As she matured she developed a number of faults that not only kept her from finishing her championship, but from me even bothering to show her at all or ever consider breeding her. She was spayed at 18 months. But everyone with an untrained eye thought she was the most beautiful whippet they had ever seen. To people that did have a trained eye she was conformationally faulty as hell.

This has been discussed ad-nauseum here on the forum. If you use the search feature you can find page upon page about this very topic with a lot more information.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I am not a show owner, or even a working dog owner, and have never even purchased a well bred dog. Probably at some point in my life I will but from that perspective I can give you my point of view.

The people that go to the great lengths produce puppies from parents who have proven themselves are worthy of breeding, not only in their eyes, but from others who have a trained, professional eye for pointing out those they believe would be good breeders. The puppies have a much greater chance of living out healthy lives in forever homes.

Now, there is Mary Jane wanting to breed Lulu to Fido because they are beautiful dogs with great personalities, wonderful family pets. She knows about the health concerns and she does care so she will have the test done (I think this is what you're saying). Her dog measures out at a perfect 27 inches, bitch right at 25 and their weight is perfect. To her their bodies look perfectly square and standard. To her, her dogs are worthy of breeding. She tries her best to find them good homes, but I'm wiling to bet that the people that purchase her puppies are not knowledgable and try as she might, she doesn't have the experience to screen her potential buyers properly. 1 of them can't believe the energy these little dobe pups bring into the house. How will they take care of such a bundle of energy at 3:00 in the morning after working all day the day before and having to work all day the next day? Another wants to put their dog in agility because it looks great and dobermans excell at it, however a couple years down the road the dog is physicially in pain and aged beyond it's years becuase of it's weak back. 1 got divorced and needs to rehome. 1 wants to breed beautiful Marie to Jack down the road, they are both so very beautiful, and both are papered, while another unaltered male (they just didn't get around to it and before you knew it he was sexually mature), knocks up the neighbors standard poodle.

Jane tried her best, and appeared to do everything right, but 2 dogs need rehoming, one is on chronic pain medicine, 1 had 6 puppies that half will probably end up in the shelter (for people like me to heartbreak over), the other left the neighbors to take care of the problem.

The people who take the time and expense to show their dogs and get their ch., OR title their dogs in working trials, have all the necessary test done to ensure healthy, physicially sound dogs, would have had the knowledge to know whether their dogs are capable of breeding a good litter, knowing that only 1, possibly 2 puppies will grow to be worthy of breeding during their lifetime (possibly 0), know what dogs to sell under full registration to the right owners, and what dogs to sell under limited registration to the right owners. Due to unforseen circumstances (death of owner) a dog may need rehoming, otherwise these dogs and their offspring will have forever homes throughout their lives.

It is the willingness to put EVERYTHING in your power into the breeding of these dogs and doing your best to ensure a future for all of their puppies produced (and most likely many generations later). They know their pedigree from many generations past, and will know the pedigrees for many generations in the future. Sure, the owners of Jane's puppies (that still have them) love their dogs, they are great and beautiful, but there are problems attached that wouldn't have come out of the proper breeding including numerous homeless pets that Jane thought she could avoid but why do that when there are such beautiful pup to be born? Shouldn't the owners of her pups get to experience at least 1 litter?

BTW--Out of the puppies puppies mentioned above, the one that had the litter of pups, between her and her offspring, they are capable of producing up to 67000 dogs in six years. I wonder how many of those will be pure dobe pups that have homes and how many will be euthanized?
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
I'm wondering why so many people look down on home breeding. I'm not talking about an acre of 100 unhealthy dogs in kennels breeding constantly, either, which seems what a lot of people think about when they hear about anything other than titled dogs breeding. What I'm about about is a person with a nice, healthy, correct Doberman who'd like to "experience" having a litter. What's wrong with that?
Why should we support that? There is no shortage of dobermans - dobermans are euthanized in shelters every day, every single rescue I know (and I am on private DPCA rescue lists, so I know many) is more than full - they are begging and pleading and paying to BOARD dobermans at vet clinics and boarding facilities because they have no more space to pull these dobes from shelters. So if there is going to be breeding, it should be to BETTER the breed, not just make more dogs.

So then we get to - what is bettering the breed? I'm concerned with much more than titling -
first, how do they know they have nice dogs, your first requirement? I've got a dog that if you met once or twice you may thinks he is perfectly wonderful - in fact, I've had two of them. However, both of those dogs have/had inappropriate aggression and both have bite histories. You would never know it looking at them, and when I am around they are perfectly fine! On the other hand, my current male has passed two temperament evaluations, has had extensive training and is just beginning his titling - his temperament has been tested and I know he is solid.
And yes, he has titles to prove that (to some degree - you can train for these temperament certs).

The next thing y ou said was healthy. You want a healthy dog - how do you know its healthy if you don't test? As a general practicing vet, I can do a physical exam and tell you the dog is healthy from my exam, but I am not able to evaluate the hips on the dog, check vWD status, run a thyroid panel, tell you if it is throwing VPCs, how the liver is functioning, etc without a much more invasive diagnostic panel. Having the vet that gives vaccines tell you the dog is healthy and fit to breed is like having the guy that pumps my gas tell me my car is in good running condition (horrible analogy, and vets aren't useless idiots - but my physical exam is NOT IN LIEU of real health testing).

Next you wanted a correct doberman - now I will tell you that I have rarely if EVER seen a BYB producing correct dobermans. I've had rescues up until my current pup and even though my pup is NOT from CH-CH breeding (though the sire does have his UDC CH), her structure is by far LEAPS AND BOUNDS above my rescue dogs, which are typical BYB produced for the most part. NO offense to anyone else on this board, but I don't think many of the people who have BYB produced dogs here have great structure to them, period - so that's not a correct doberman. They have rounded croups, straight in the front and rear, soft flat feet (and these DO affect performance and movement), etc.

So tell me, how do you get nice, healthy correct dobermans unless you WORK and PROVE that you have them?


Quote:
I know the point of breeding is to improve the breed (although many people have strayed from that), but is a titled dog only capable of producing worthy pups? With that question, now ask what even IS a title? If the person who wants to breed has a health tested dog with a great temperment that fits a kennel club's standards, but has never showed, why is it not worthy?
No one said it is not. There are more things out there than conformation, but then how are you going to prove your dog needs to be bred and deserves to be bred? How do you better the breed if you cannot prove the dog is worthy of being bred?

Just having a functioning penis and ovaries doesn't make a dog worthy of being bred.

Personally for me, I am not only concerned about the ability to attain a CH in the ring - I appreciate and strive for a structurally correct doberman that meets standard, but I am also extremely concerned about temperament, health and working ability - I love this breed and want to be able to do it all. My pup is not from CH parents, but her lines have titles in them (as do her parents- her dam is still titling as is her sire) and her breeder does show in AKC and is able to understand the structure and where she is going with each breeding.

No one is saying only AKC CH's should be bred - but there is a lot more out there than just having that. All AKC Ch's shouldn't be bred - one title doesn't make or break a dog. But if you cannot even get out there and try to prove your dog in ANY arena, then you should stop pumping out pups.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
the person who wants to breed has a health tested dog with a great temperment that fits a kennel club's standards, but has never showed, why is it not worthy?
And how do they know this dog fits the standard if they have never shown? Everyone tells everyone their dog is cute or pretty, vets, groomers, neighbors, friends, looks great, etc. But that doesn’t mean anything, as most dogs are cute, smart, or beautiful to most people who love dogs.

The person you described above hasn’t seen many Dobes, they don’t know enough to really know the standard as it applies to real dogs, not pictures, but real live animals. It is more than just reading a standard. The standard in motion, with real dogs is different than just reading about the standard on a flat medium. The standard exists for a reason, without knowing it and striving for something close to it, you can really change what we know as the Doberman today for the worse, health wise and everything.

The standard is a goal, as every dog is not perfect. And it is just one part of it, health, working ability, temperament all of these things matter. And if the “breeders” don’t have a real goal of improving the breed, why are they breeding?
Just to experience a litter? More about that later.

The person you described above don’t understand the importance of good structure and how that correlates with standing up to work or even a good family pet playing ball and Frisbee over the years, since they know little of the standard to begin with other than something they have read online or in a book. How do they know what is a great temperament, a CORRECT temperament for a Dobe? Do they even bother with any temperament tests? Or it is just their personal bias opinion on their very own dog without any titles or getting out and about much? It is easy to think a Dobe has a good temperament if the dog never gets out and about. The more places you go, the more things you do, the more information you gain about your dog. Titles do show temperament to a degree, in the various rings and performance venues, temperament matters.

You have gotten good answers, thanks for everyone for their replies. This has been discussed to the moon on this forum if you are really interested in learning more you can use the search. I understand it is “yesterdays” news, but there are only so many ways to repeat the same information.

First of all, it is not just “prancing around a show ring”. There is a lot more to it than that, with our breed (can’t speak for any others) it is not just a simple beauty contest. Read the standard, go to some shows, enter yourself, enter some classes, it is a lot more than it looks to the outside eye. A lot of people like to make all sorts of judgments on the dogs, the people, just everything to do with a show, and I find most of them have never been involved with showing. And like I have said before, that is okay, but don’t be so quick to call it negative if you really have no idea about it.

I see this a lot, and sometimes it does bother me, as I don’t understand why people can be so for BYB’s who don’t do a thing with their dogs other than just breed and add sheer numbers and contribute to the pet overpopulation crisis and then be so against all of the people out there doing something with their dogs. If you add up the numbers, sadly, the people doing anything at all with their dogs before breeding isn’t a big number anyway. Be that in any venue. I am all for the good responsible breeders in the US found in the DPCA and the UDC, out there breeding better Dobes with every generation. Focusing on health, temperament, and conformation. Knowing that just breeding for one thing, and only one thing, is not good in the long term or short term. There is a lot more to breeding Dobermans.


Most of the show and performance people, the people that DO THINGS with their dogs to help the next generation be better are the same ones that health test and temperament test. They focus heavily on producing a great sound in mind and body Doberman that people can enjoy for many years to come. They are dedicated to their Dobermans and to the breed. They are always learning more about the breed through others and with others. They aren’t “kennel blind”. Kennel blind means they only have their opinion and no others and believe their dogs are the best since they are their dogs. They seek and want others opinions on their dogs.

They belong to clubs that donate and raise money to help Doberman genetics. Those people are the people that helped fund and support canine health and also form committees to help fight against breed bans and help support your right to own a Doberman in the US. I have found many support rescue, with time and money. These breeders also take their own dogs back of their breeding (any puppies they have ever had) at any time ever back into their home. They make sure the owner knows that the dog always a have a place to go, not the shelter. BYB’s contribute to the problem, keeping the need for rescues higher every year.

Also, form also follow function. A correctly built standard Doberman is built to be compact and square. The standard reflects that of a working dog. One properly conformed to work. There is a real REASON behind proper structure in this working breed.

You asked what is a title? A title is a somewhat objective measure from others (experts, not the girl at petsmart or your neighbor) to show you that several people do think your dog has what it takes to get the said title, this usually involved many hours of training, dedication, time, etc. Sure, you can think a title is meaningless, unless you have ever put in all those hours, all that dedication, bonded with your dog first hand, and seen first hand what really is behind that title. http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~may/title

And not all dogs with titles need to be bred; just having a conformation title doesn't mean the dog is breed worthy automatically IMO. That is just one part of the equation, one part of the bigger picture. Not every titled dog will be bred or needs to be bred for various reasons. And a dog without conformation titles can be bred too, many times by by breeders with the years of experience and full knowledge to understand what and why they are breeding the dog, there are many important factors that must be considered when doing a breeding to better the breed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
What I'm about about is a person who'd like to "experience" having a litter..
What about volunteering at rescue and fostering a momma dog so they can experience a litter if that is all they are wanting to do? They must be ready for that fully though, it is a big job. The rescue can help place the puppies in the best homes. There is a win win for the person wanting to experience a litter so badly. Or they can get involved with doing it the right way if they want to better their chosen breed, or if they aren't ready to breed themselves they can get a mentor or a reputable breeder they have come to trust and have a relationship with and help that person out with the litter, that was produced the right way. There are several other options than breeding themselves just to make puppies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
What I'm about about is a person with a nice, healthy, correct Doberman...
How do they know the Doberman is correct or “nice” in their personal opinion has already been talked about, but not healthy. And how do they know this Doberman is healthy? Short answer, they don’t.

Mostly they breed dogs too young to have full health testing anyway, and they have no information to back it up either. The younger the breed them, the less they know about the Doberman in general, temperament, structure, working ability, etc. They don’t know the full health test results of the sire and dam on either dog. They don’t understand that you can’t just look at a dog and know the status of health testing.

They assume the dogs they produce are healthy, but really don’t know as they don’t follow up with owners usually and have no information on all the pups and where they go. Also, many people say their dogs are healthy, but really they have puppies. You don’t know if you dog is healthy or not as a young puppy, it is just a puppy.

Genetics in Dobes is more than just the sire and dam, you want to look back several generations as far back as you can and take into consideration their genetics too. Backyard breeders rarely care about, know about, or even have access to this important information.

The Dobe as a whole at all levels has some very big concerns with health, and as breeders ethically it is important to give the puppies you produce the best start in life by knowing before hand what you are producing, also for the new owners. Who wants their much loved Dobe to have genetic hip problems at a year or two old, and their puppies to not be able to run and play like pet Dobe should? There are several specific tests in Dobermans for health. None of these you can just go to the vet for a general check-up. These tests are more than just that. When these tests are widely available to the general public there isn’t a valid excuse IMO not to test all breeding Dobermans. I even test just because I am curious. My altered performance prospect has many health tests and will continue to have them, as I like all the information I can get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
Shouldn't a dog be judge on worth by abilty to do what it was bred for?
Yes, the Doberman was bred for protection of man. Many do a great job at this from all backgrounds, be that rescue, show, doggie sports, and form follows function. That is why conformation in the Dobe is important for work. But it is only one part IMO. Health, temperament, work ethic, drive, conformation, etc. all of these things matter a lot in the Dobe breed. Check out the WAE, do a search on this past discussion if you really want to learn more. While the WAE is not perfect, and doggie sports are not perfect real life situations, they do tell you something about the dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
And, another good question to raise is about judges. Judges are humans. Humans that have favorites, humans that hear rumours, humans that simply have a mind of their own. I know judges are required to dismiss any information and only focus on the dogs in the ring, but can anyone really do that? I'm not saying all judges are biast, but sometimes I'm sure you showers ask (from a view of knowing the standards and what's being looked at) why that dog over another?
There isn’t as much political stuff until you get into the higher levels. For the most part, humans are humans have nothing to do with it, BYB’s are humans too, puppy mills are staffed by humans, everyone breeding dogs is a human.
The judges are educated on Dobermans and judge accordingly. You may not always agree with their opinion, but another day, another dog show. There are different judges and you can get a feel for what they like and don’t like. In the big scheme of things, I would much rather have the opinion of several judges and some majors (points gained for a CH. Where your Dobe has to compete with a large number of other Dobes) than just my personal opinion that my dog is great and looks great. Do you see where that is headed?

I do hope this helps with the questions you asked. Keep asking!
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Last edited by Dobesanddragons; 12-13-2007 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Not to stir the pot any as I do believe that most of us (who don't show) would far prefer to have a wellbred pet quality dog from a good breeder....for those of us that do not show, we have less chances to buy a dog from a 'good' breeder as there are long waiting lists, applications, and most importantly references, etc. In addition, I and others on this board find that nearly all the breeders nearby are thought of as BYBs.

Perhaps you would say to attend shows and get to know the owners there, do more research, etc. Maybe something interferes with doing those things, work, health issues, current dogs, whatever.

Any suggestions for people like that?
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:49 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Awesome responses everyone...i am learning a ton.... I think just to "experience having a litter" is not a good enough reason to have one...by the amount of work, my breeder has done to insure that they are not only healthy but also well socialize etc...I don't think it is a fun as it is crack up to be. But how could you not want to raise 12 cuties( that will be born on december 19th at 115 am...LOL).

I am new to all of this...but if you sit down and really think about why you want to breed...it is more for selfish (if I can say that without offending anyone) reasons then for the breed... Like it was mentioned above...there are so many dobes that need good homes...why would we want to create new dobes that are not improving the breed?

If you were to talk to breeders....you would know how much they love their dogs and how devoted and committed to the breed they are. They truly are the guardians of the breed....
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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"who'd like to "experience" having a litter"

I have a suggestion for this. Why don't you volunteer at a local Humane Society or Doberman Rescue for six months to a year and see how long you keep this desire to "experience having a litter".
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Having been a member of DT for the last half a year, I've been here for several members beloved dogs untimely deaths. Knowing the pain our members had from losing their precious babies has had me crying my eyes out, I just can't imagine losing my Petey to old age at nine, let alone any earlier to genetic health issues. If I ever purchase another Doberman....I want the best well bred, healthiest, long lived lines I can get~There is not one BACK YARD BREEDER/GREEDER or Novice that can give me any chance of having all that by breeding two random dogs. They are only adding to the heartache of putting more dogs out there with health problems, that people love like their children and who will die way too young. This breed needs a major overhaul in the genetics department....and only those who really know the lines will have any chance of breeding healthier longer lived Dobermans.

oxc
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
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well said carol
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Luvbirds59 View Post
Having been a member of DT for the last half a year, I've been here for several members beloved dogs untimely deaths. Knowing the pain our members had from losing their precious babies has had me crying my eyes out, I just can't imagine losing my Petey to old age at nine, let alone any earlier to genetic health issues. If I ever purchase another Doberman....I want the best well bred, healthiest, long lived lines I can get~There is not one BACK YARD BREEDER/GREEDER or Novice that can give me any chance of having all that by breeding two random dogs. They are only adding to the heartache of putting more dogs out there with health problems, that people love like their children and who will die way too young. This breed needs a major overhaul in the genetics department....and only those who really know the lines will have any chance of breeding healthier longer lived Dobermans.

oxc
I agree Carol. The health problems in the breed however go far beyond just the so called byb. Cardio, cancer, cvi and liver issues are killing far too many young dobermans. With cardio hopefully we will see a dna test in the future. Who knows what that will tell, it's possible that no doberman is cardio free. It does seem some lines are more riddled with it than others. In my opinion one has to study the pedigrees carefully and ask a lot of questions. The health history is extremely important if you want the best chance to get a healthy long-lived puppy. There are no guarantees but it can improve your odds.

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Old 12-13-2007, 01:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Anyone who knows how much work and cost is involved to bring a healthy litter to term, whelp it and care for the pups and dam would probably have second thoughts.

I know it's not pc but my gut reaction to people who breed two animals to 'experience the wonder of nature' is that they are probably also likely to have a child to 'experience the wonder of childbirth'. And I'm sure just as little thought went into each decision....
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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If you want to experience a litter foster.


And its not as fun as it sounds anyway!
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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IMHO...not an "interesting breeding question."
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If you are not fully health testing and titling your Dobermans, I'm not buying. I'm not a sucker for a greeder, back yard breeder or puppy miller. I've done my research......have you???
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Here's something for those who think they might want to "experience a litter":

http://www.lhasa-apso.org/articles/video.htm
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by anmracing View Post
Not to stir the pot any as I do believe that most of us (who don't show) would far prefer to have a wellbred pet quality dog from a good breeder....for those of us that do not show, we have less chances to buy a dog from a 'good' breeder as there are long waiting lists, applications, and most importantly references, etc. In addition, I and others on this board find that nearly all the breeders nearby are thought of as BYBs.

Perhaps you would say to attend shows and get to know the owners there, do more research, etc. Maybe something interferes with doing those things, work, health issues, current dogs, whatever.

Any suggestions for people like that?
There are more pet quality dogs born to each reputable breeders litter than a show quality.
It is the "reputable breeders" duty to screen potential buyers. That means personal and vet references. Even dobe rescues do that. Unless you are hiding something then there is nothing to worry about. Heck, the dobe rescue I got my Rudi from even did a background check! If you are looking for a dobe from a reputable breeder......guess what? A reputable breeder does not pump out litter after litter, breedings are carefully and selectively chosen and may only breed once every 1-2 years. If you want a well bred dobe, be prepared to wait for it.
If you have serious health issues, are unable to spend the time to even talk on the phone with a reputable breeder or even fill out an application, you have too many issues with your current dogs, work issues.....then adding any more furry friends to your home is probably not the best choice as it sounds like a person under these circumstances do not have time to devote to a doberpup, let alone any puppy.
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If you are not fully health testing and titling your Dobermans, I'm not buying. I'm not a sucker for a greeder, back yard breeder or puppy miller. I've done my research......have you???

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Old 12-13-2007, 04:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by anmracing View Post
Not to stir the pot any as I do believe that most of us (who don't show) would far prefer to have a wellbred pet quality dog from a good breeder....for those of us that do not show, we have less chances to buy a dog from a 'good' breeder as there are long waiting lists, applications, and most importantly references, etc. In addition, I and others on this board find that nearly all the breeders nearby are thought of as BYBs.

Perhaps you would say to attend shows and get to know the owners there, do more research, etc. Maybe something interferes with doing those things, work, health issues, current dogs, whatever.

Any suggestions for people like that?
Get involved locally. They have training clubs, local kennl clubs, local DPCs, etc. Volunteer at a shelter and show compassion for dogs in general, more specifically doberman if you can. I can't travel far often for shows either and I don't know if I'd be looked at by breeders seriously (because of young children also), but I'd like to think that your local actions would make up for your lack of dog show appearances. It is good to go though to see what dogs strike your fancy, and from what lines, KWIM?
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:26 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Lots of long replies. So I'm just going with a few things that jumped out at me.

Quote:
You simply will NEVER have this knowledge unless you are involved in the sport.
I don't really agree with that. Perhaps you won't know what brand of food each dog eats, but you know pedigrees, wins, loses and so on. Similar to horse racing. If everyone was going to the track to bet on the prettiest horse, no one would win.
So, I think it is possible to have plenty of knowledge on something without being directly involved.

Quote:
Now, there is Mary Jane wanting to breed Lulu to Fido because they are beautiful dogs with great personalities, wonderful family pets. She knows about the health concerns and she does care so she will have the test done (I think this is what you're saying). Her dog measures out at a perfect 27 inches, bitch right at 25 and their weight is perfect. To her their bodies look perfectly square and standard. To her, her dogs are worthy of breeding. She tries her best to find them good homes, but I'm wiling to bet that the people that purchase her puppies are not knowledgable and try as she might, she doesn't have the experience to screen her potential buyers properly. 1 of them can't believe the energy these little dobe pups bring into the house. How will they take care of such a bundle of energy at 3:00 in the morning after working all day the day before and having to work all day the next day? Another wants to put their dog in agility because it looks great and dobermans excell at it, however a couple years down the road the dog is physicially in pain and aged beyond it's years becuase of it's weak back. 1 got divorced and needs to rehome. 1 wants to breed beautiful Marie to Jack down the road, they are both so very beautiful, and both are papered, while another unaltered male (they just didn't get around to it and before you knew it he was sexually mature), knocks up the neighbors standard poodle.
I'm sure Mary Jane tried her best to find good homes, but it's impossible to tell what will really eventually happened to the dog. Sad, but true. However, if only "legit" showers bred and sold their puppies for $2,000 no average person wanting a family pet would be able to have one. There are a lot of bad people especially when dealing with an imposing looking breed that people want to throw in the backyard. I really don't know what else to say there, but my dog is a good example. I bought him from some idiot people who had Doberman's because they looked bad. So, clearly the people they were selling to probably had the same thing in mind. The biggest pups were gone, no health testing, and from the neighborhood they lived in you could take a good guess at what happened to the puppies (not to sterotype, or anything, but it's typical). Anyway, I managed to get to the last puppy in time before some bad person took. I payed $600 for a dog that you could see it's spine and hip bones, that had a bad crop, tapeworms and some weird internal problem. Since then I've dropped several thousand dollars on him and he's healthy and great (aside from on the leash, but we're working on that). However, I don't show and never will with him because he simply can't. It just seems a lot like when I hear everyone talk about this that any home that doesn't show or compete should have a purebred dog. Perhaps out of context, but everyone gets very defensive.


Quote:
Why should we support that? There is no shortage of dobermans - dobermans are euthanized in shelters every day, every single rescue I know (and I am on private DPCA rescue lists, so I know many) is more than full - they are begging and pleading and paying to BOARD dobermans at vet clinics and boarding facilities because they have no more space to pull these dobes from shelters. So if there is going to be breeding, it should be to BETTER the breed, not just make more dogs.
That is exactly what I said, perhaps you should read my full post. However, since you're so intent on stressing the fact about the death of so many homeless Dobermans, why breed and show and compete in the first place? If you're concerned about them, stop the breeding program, forget all the blue ribbons and adopt 10 skinny, heart worm ridden Dobes and do some good.


Quote:
The next thing y ou said was healthy. You want a healthy dog - how do you know its healthy if you don't test?
Yet again, read my post. I said health tested dog. I'm not a fool when it comes to health testing. You don't have to be a breeder to be aware of the various problems with purebred dogs and how to check for them.

Quote:
Just having a functioning penis and ovaries doesn't make a dog worthy of being bred
Just having a sharp tongue doesn't make you worthy of treating me a like 6 year old that has no idea what I'm talking about.

Quote:
And how do they know this dog fits the standard if they have never shown? Everyone tells everyone their dog is cute or pretty, vets, groomers, neighbors, friends, looks great, etc. But that doesnít mean anything, as most dogs are cute, smart, or beautiful to most people who love dogs.
They can read the standard and apply it to their dog. I think that's pretty obvious. Get a tape measure, leveler and color swatches and have at it.

Quote:
There is not one BACK YARD BREEDER/GREEDER or Novice that can give me any chance of having all that by breeding two random dogs
And again, read my post. If I've said health testing once, I've said it a thousand times. And, just for the record, a titled dog does not prove health, only correctness of appearance.
As for breeding healthier and longer living Dobermans, simply by breeding two of the same breed together is screwing them up. How do you think any pure breed was created? Inbreeding. That's why breeds have specific health problems. It's been bred into them for decades. If you want a really healthy and long living dog, adopt a mutt.

Quote:
Awesome responses everyone...i am learning a ton.... I think just to "experience having a litter" is not a good enough reason to have one...by the amount of work, my breeder has done to insure that they are not only healthy but also well socialize etc...I don't think it is a fun as it is crack up to be. But how could you not want to raise 12 cuties( that will be born on december 19th at 115 am...LOL).

I am new to all of this...but if you sit down and really think about why you want to breed...it is more for selfish (if I can say that without offending anyone) reasons then for the breed... Like it was mentioned above...there are so many dobes that need good homes...why would we want to create new dobes that are not improving the breed?

If you were to talk to breeders....you would know how much they love their dogs and how devoted and committed to the breed they are. They truly are the guardians of the breed....
So, someone who isn't a breeder isn't capable of keeping puppies healthy and socialized? If that's what you're saying, then how on earth can we even walk down the street without getting attacked?

Well, with this question I posted, I planned on getting good, interesting, nice responses from breeders so I could have the same opinion of them as you, but by the looks of it, arrogance seems to outweight all the positive qualities, unfortunately.

Quote:
How do they know the Doberman is correct or ďniceĒ in their personal opinion has already been talked about, but not healthy. And how do they know this Doberman is healthy? Short answer, they donít.

Mostly they breed dogs too young to have full health testing anyway, and they have no information to back it up either. The younger the breed them, the less they know about the Doberman in general, temperament, structure, working ability, etc. They donít know the full health test results of the sire and dam on either dog. They donít understand that you canít just look at a dog and know the status of health testing.

They assume the dogs they produce are healthy, but really donít know as they donít follow up with owners usually and have no information on all the pups and where they go. Also, many people say their dogs are healthy, but really they have puppies. You donít know if you dog is healthy or not as a young puppy, it is just a puppy.
Eh, it sounds like you're grouping all average members of society into the same boat. Is it impossible to have someone that actually knows what they're doing? Knows about pedigrees, genetics, hips, and the slew of other important things? Now, I do agree that there are plenty of people who are ignorant to all of it, but out of the 6.6 billion people on earth, I'm sure breeders/showers are the only people that know the deal.

Quote:
What about volunteering at rescue and fostering a momma dog so they can experience a litter if that is all they are wanting to do? They must be ready for that fully though, it is a big job. The rescue can help place the puppies in the best homes. There is a win win for the person wanting to experience a litter so badly. Or they can get involved with doing it the right way if they want to better their chosen breed, or if they aren't ready to breed themselves they can get a mentor or a reputable breeder they have come to trust and have a relationship with and help that person out with the litter, that was produced the right way. There are several other options than breeding themselves just to make puppies.
I think someone else said it, but mroe rudely, and I agree. But people are selfish and lazy, it seems, which is why all volunteer organizations are lacking in just that. Sad reality.

I'm taking a break from this. Clearly everyone here feels very strongly about this and most cannot simply state their opinion without putting me down. I'd like to say that I don't give a crap about breeding, you all seem to act as if I am the one I speak of in the original post. Every dog I have is a rescue, one was even a feral stray from Eastern Europe. I do have a Doberman and a Boxer and and someone said, both are faulty as hell. Either way, the next dog I get will probably be from DAR&E, although that's a long time away.
Lastly, everyone seems to fall back on all the dying dogs and litters being born in the animal shelters. Well, breeders, I have a question for you, why do you continue to breed if you're so concerned with the homeless Dobes? You quickly turn that question to what I have to say, but how about taking a look at yourself.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:29 AM   #19 (permalink)
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So, I think it is possible to have plenty of knowledge on something without being directly involved.
Start showing dogs or competing in dogsports and get back to me in 10 years. You would laugh at that comment.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:34 AM   #20 (permalink)
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If you want to experience a litter foster.


And its not as fun as it sounds anyway!
Oh, trust me. I don't want a pack of puppies that can't control their bowels running around in my house.

Quote:
IMHO...not an "interesting breeding question."
Then why did you just waste you time typing that? If you don't find it interesting, there's no reason to add input. However, apparently it is somewhat interesting because it's gotten over 20 replies in less than one day.

Quote:
Anyone who knows how much work and cost is involved to bring a healthy litter to term, whelp it and care for the pups and dam would probably have second thoughts.

I know it's not pc but my gut reaction to people who breed two animals to 'experience the wonder of nature' is that they are probably also likely to have a child to 'experience the wonder of childbirth'. And I'm sure just as little thought went into each decision....
Haha, I actually agree somewhat. But, then again, everyone here is grouping all the idiots into the same boat with people who are ready and willing to take on the fiancial/emotional/everything else responsibilities of having a litter.

Please, tell me, everyone, why can't average, non showers, do that? I sounds very arrogant of everyone to think that only they can responsibly have a litter. There are plenty of resources online, in books, in magazines, everywhere that provide plenty of information of what to do. And, if you're about to say that all the information is generalized and not realistic, I've seen articles provided by breeders, so that point is out.

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Old 12-14-2007, 12:36 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Start showing dogs or competing in dogsports and get back to me in 10 years. You would laugh at that comment.
Why do you insist on that? Tell me WHY it is not possible for someone to do that? Why can someone not go to shows or sports, meet and greet, read literature, read pedigrees, and not gather enough information? Tell why a person cannot do that? I am honestly interested in what you have to say, because if an average person can't do that, how in the world do you expect new "reputable" breeders to get started? The current ones are bound to die off, so if you all keep this golden information under lock and key, how will new generations of people like you continue to breed up to your precious standards?
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:39 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
Why do you insist on that? Tell me WHY it is not possible for someone to do that? Why can someone not go to shows or sports, meet and greet, read literature, read pedigrees, and not gather enough information? Tell why a person cannot do that? I am honestly interested in what you have to say, because if an average person can't do that, how in the world do you expect new "reputable" breeders to get started? The current ones are bound to die off, so if you all keep this golden information under lock and key, how will new generations of people like you continue to breed up to your precious standards?
I must say it is getting a bit weary reading your replies. 2 years ago I retired from being an addiction counselor, which I had done for 17 years. I kind of got tired of listening to people's denial and seemingly inability to listen or benefit from others experience. You can gain knowledge and educate yourself but you have to be OPEN-MINDED to do so. As much as I love dogs I am a much better judge of people after what I did for a living for so long. You just don't seem like the open-minded type to me. Hey I am a pretty strong willed person, and as much as I differ in opinion with a lot of people here, I am the first to admit I have learned a hell of a lot in just the few months I have been hanging around here. It has been good for me.

You said you are new to the breed. I have never been without a Doberman in 25 years. When I got my last puppy I got involved in Schutzhund. I have been heavily involved in it for almost 4 years now (by heavily involved I mean an average of 12-15 hours a week at the dog club, and spending a lot of time at trials and seminars as well. I have above average intelligence. After living with this breed for 25 years and spending several THOUSAND hours training, competing, and spending a lot of time listening to real experts on various aspects of dog training, and working drives and temperament. I am just now, finally, at the point of being able to even carry a conversation about these subjects. You think you can attend a couple of events and gain the knowledge you need to make informed decisions? Reading dogs and learning enough to make informed decisions on how to match dogs of different temperaments to get the desired result of stable and safe dogs, is a science and an art that takes a long time and a lot of experience to be able to pull off. And that is just the temperament end of things, forget conformation. There I have looked at thousands of pictures of dogs and attended a lot of Euro style dog shows (N. American AKC show lines are just not my thing), I have read the standard, and tried to figure out what the judge is going to say about the dog. I also ask other's opinion. I am still much more of a novice on that end than I am on the working end. Personally I would not consider it without getting a hell of a lot of advice and direction. I have spent the last few years soaking up everything I can. To say you can do this by being on the sidelines is BS. It would be like saying you could attend a couple of concerts and be able to sit in with the band even though you have never played an instrument before.

Another side to that same argument is your dog has to be INVOLVED in these events to be able to read them. The dog cannot be involved unless YOU are involved. My belief is that you cannot accurately read a dog until they have had pressure put on them to see how solid their temperament is. Being involved means putting your ass and the dog's out there for an EXPERT to objectively as possible make a determination about the dog's ability. Everyone, even people who are heavily involved in dog sports has to fight their tendency to wear rose-colored glasses and listen to what the judge has to say. That is why I like Schuthzund, it is somewhat more objective IMO than shows. The dog either performs or it does not.

If you don't get this outside reference then you become blind to the realities. If the pressure is not put on the dog then you have no idea about the dog's temperament, drives and working ability or utility. IF the dog is not in these venues then you sure as hell don't have any idea what your dog is then lacking and what you have to look for in a stud.

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Old 12-14-2007, 01:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoberLu View Post
The current ones are bound to die off, so if you all keep this golden information under lock and key, how will new generations of people like you continue to breed up to your precious standards?
The ones who are having their first litters are the ones that have been in the breed in the ring and on the working field for years. Its not just looking at a dog. You get out there and experiance it. A TON. In the conformation ring, not just looking, putting your hands on the dogs, moving with the dogs, how to move them to show the correct movement, etc. On the working field, you are in the dogs head, you know what he is thinking, how he will react, what he should and will be doing. You can't get these things by watching or reading about them, you simply cannot. Sure you can gain information and knowledge but with the lack of experiance you really have no understanding of what it is you should be looking for in the breed.
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Old 12-14-2007, 02:26 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Glad you are continuing to ask questions even though the responses were apparently less than you anticipated.

There is a difference between book knowledge vs. real world working knowledge. Many new graduates that have not done internships and never held real jobs (but have years of solid great book knowledge) find this out quickly when they go into the real world! There are things not taught in books…

There are many concepts in dogs you simply can’t get from books; it is an experience more so than a good read written by someone else. And not everything is written. There are so many subjects that come up as you actively learn; it is different than passively learning. Reading pedigrees means nothing unless you know the dogs behind them, if you are not out there seeing and doing with your dogs, how will you ever really see the dogs or their offspring that are in the pedigree? I see a lot of problems with this…

If you are not involved, you can have opinions and stereotypes, but not real working valid knowledge on the many levels. The reason you can’t understand this is that you haven’t gotten involved, when and if you do, you will start to understand there is more to it than you ever thought.

You said someone could read the standard and see how their dog matches up, the standard is more than a flat medium on a computer screen or in a book, it doesn’t show movement, or temperament, etc. To most, all Dobermans in a conformation show look alike, this is not true to those that truly know the standard and have developed an eye for Dobermans.

Also, horses and dogs are different. Apples to oranges. I have a best friend that breeds race horses; it is a whole different ball game than responsible and ethical dog breeding.

For me personally, as soon as I learned the differences between commercial breeders, backyard breeders, and responsible breeders, it just made sense to me.
I get so confused when it doesn’t for others I guess, I get so confused when they are so against people that do things with their dogs. Then they say backyard breeders are actually okay for the breed or fine places to buy a dog. They aren’t. The dogs deserve better IMO.

You will rarely find a BYB fully health testing their dogs btw. Backyard breeders rarely care about, know about, or even have access to this important information since the breeders before them didn’t think it was important enough to health test the lines they are breeding or keep good records on the dogs being produced.

I get confused how some can discount the sheer numbers of all the dogs out there, the good breeders are FAR in the minority yet they blame them for problems, get mad at them for caring about things like the future of the breed, showing (that doesn’t just mean conformation, you can show in obedience, SchH, agility, etc.) health testing, and temperament testing? For spending countless hours caring about their dogs, breeding better dogs, countless hours training, helping others with Dobes, etc.

The responsible Dobe owners and breeders help fund research for our breed and help fight breed bans. I guess I am as puzzled as you seem, that I just don’t logically understand, how can BYB’s that just makes puppies to make more puppies without any real reason or goal be just fine, why the anger at good responsible breeders? Do you have an answer? It is confusing as hell to me!

A few reasons why reputable breeders don’t contribute to the pet overpopulation problem, they take back all their dogs if a problem ever comes up and they put all puppies that aren’t showing on limited registration. Those two things make a big difference, if you look at the numbers of puppies and dogs from good breeding programs on craigslist or in shelters, you just won’t find them. The breeders care too much about their puppies and dogs, they are responsible for them their entire lives. In stark contrast to BYB’s, who rarely take dogs back and rarely use limited registration. Like the example given before, all their intact dogs turn into more puppies, etc. a cycle that never ends and the dogs are the losers big time.

And FYI, mutts aren’t always healthy. You never know what you are getting. For all you know, they could have gotten the worst of all their parents and the various breeds in that dog. You just never know. As a child we owned many dogs, and one day we got a mutt puppy. The puppy had severe temperament problems and aggression from day one that got worse as the dog got older. The mutt someone in my family has right now has a slew of problems that started at age one. Heartbreaking really as the dog is good natured.

There are not guarantees in dogs, that is a reason why various owners want to stack the odds in their favorite with the genetic roll of the dice and stick with health tested dogs for many generations and breeders that know what they are doing as far as genetics go. They are interested in record keeping and overall longevity in the sire and dam since they know it directly impacts their puppies too.

The information about breeding better dogs isn’t under lock and key, it is all over the place from a variety of different places if you know where to look and aren’t afraid to put in time and effort. Time can mean years easily, time and effort can mean lots of traveling. Time and effort can mean helping out a breeder at a show or during practice (remember show is more than just one venue) to gain important knowledge. Time and effort can mean volunteering and helping out at your local Dobe club and/or competing with your own Dobes at training club and shows. Time and effort can mean clubs, shows, trials, practices, mentors, etc.

And about the person you suggest they rescue and do some good? LOL. This person has done rescue for many years, even shows those rescues.

Ethically I could never give my money to support a backyard breeder or commercial puppy mill breeder, I will always either rescue or have dogs from responsible breedings. I can’t condone BYB’s and puppy mills in today’s society.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
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All right. Rosamburg, bleh60, and dobesanddragons said it. Although, Rosamburg's accusations of me being in denial and closeminded certainly were rude and incorrect, the information provided later was enough to prove everyone else's point. All I was interested in from the beginning was getting a real answer. Instead, everyone got assy with me.

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2 years ago I retired from being an addiction counselor, which I had done for 17
I actually have a family member who's in the same field, counseling convicted felons. You want denial and close-mindedness? I'm sure you'd think I was a princess after them.


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Glad you are continuing to ask questions even though the responses were apparently less than you anticipated
Oh, I was absolutely fine with getting a variety of different answers, ones that I agree and disagree with, it's just the way they have been given is what's discouraging and certainly giving me the impression that breeders/showers are somewhat arrogant and unable to have a conversation (or even a debate) without insulting.

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There is a difference between book knowledge vs. real world working knowledge. Many new graduates that have not done internships and never held real jobs (but have years of solid great book knowledge) find this out quickly when they go into the real world! There are things not taught in books…
Best point given, by far. I totally agree.


I do have one last thing to say about BYB. From what I've read, everyone here thinks of a BYB as anyone who breeds their dog, good home or not. Am I correct? If so, I disagree. You all group people into two slots: BYB and reptuable. It's not that black and white. To me a BYB is someone who doesn't really give a crap about the dog's welfare, breeding for profit, etc.. What I refer to as a home breeder (perhaps there's another term, but I am unaware of it) is someone who does care, has enough money to support the dog/future litter, does health tests (and not just a yearly look-over like someone grumbled about, but x-rays, blood tests, and so on), temperment tests, pedigree checks. Basically, someone who is doing everything other than competeing. And, also, (I should have mentioned this in my original post) I'm talking about someone who has a dog from a reptutable breeder. Of course not someone breeding a dog that was bought out of the back of a truck in a parking lot from a man in plaid. I'm talking about a quality dog from a quality breeder that comes from correct, titled parents. So, anyway, I still just think that it all seems a little unfair. Only people who show with their dogs are allowed to breed, and (as I've read on hundreds of breeder websites) sell "only to show home". So, where does that leave the rest of us? If you think about it, we're stuck buying from BYB, supporting the bad people.

Last edited by DoberLu; 12-14-2007 at 05:13 AM..
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