Capone's Mommy

I just wanted to talk about an experience that really made my husband and I grow as Doberman owners. My husband and I have an almost 3 year old male Doberman who we got from a BYB. We love Capone and honestly would not change a thing about him, however as we began the process of looking to add another Doberman female to our family we wanted to do everything the correct way. We have been looking and researching to the point that sometimes huge migraines are the outcome. My husband and I finally decided that Cambria Dobermans in Holton, Indiana was going to be a great match for us. We contacted Ann and Jim about their breeding schedule and they stated that they would have a litter due in August of this year and it was going to be perfect for our family’s living situation. We sent in our deposit to Ann and Jim and thought it was very clear we were interested in a puppy from their August litter. We understood that they did not place health contracts on their puppies, but that they do all of the health tests recommended. We were pleased by that because we have researched them for awhile and they had good recommendations and also we were under the assumptions that if there was even just a slight hint that there could be a potential health problem with a puppy they surely would not sell it. We made it clear we just wanted a healthy female puppy. Time went on and we just wanted to check on the puppies and see if they were born yet. Jim contacted us and brought to our attention that our potential puppy’s dam, had an infection and out of 11 puppies that were born only 3 survived thru the next days/weeks. We were sad and very concerned. Jim said he would keep us updated on the puppies, but he also wanted us to consider another potential dog.

Jim contacted us about this other dog who was an 8 month old red Doberman, whom Ann and he decided they no longer wanted. This was very unsettling with us as they offered no true reason for giving her up. So my husband and I drove about 2 hours each way to see this 8 month old and while she was beautiful and seemed to have a great temperament we felt no real connection to her and were still a little weary of her being kept in a kennel for as long as she was. While there we spoke to both Jim and Ann. While Ann was very pleasant to talk to Jim was another story. He indirectly backhanded other breeders and acted like he was the top of the food chain and that other breeders were on a totally different level below him. I thought this man was well respected, but my views and opinions on him as well as Cambria quickly changed. He gave off a completely different persona during the many phone conversations I had with him. While there we were just checking with him on the price of the 8 month old because we were told she was a show dog and had already been featured in Doberman Digest and assumed that her price might be a little more and just wanted to verify. Jim instantly snapped back and said, “I never negotiate on pricing.” My husband and I were offended because we were not trying to negotiate on pricing we just wanted to know her price because we had never discussed it before. We were willing to pay whatever price we needed to in order to get a great quality pet companion. After wrapping up our visit, ourselves and Jim agreed that we should sleep on it and call him back the next day which was a Tuesday.

My husband and I talked about the whole experience and the 8 month old on the ride home and slept on it. So on Tuesday afternoon I contacted Jim to talk to him with no response. After not being able to reach Jim via phone later in the week we sent him an email stating that we decided not to go with the 8 month old so we would like our deposit back due to the health issues of the remaining puppies. Finally on Sunday morning he responded to our email. He explained that their other litter was just born and that he was a little busy. I understand him being busy, but as a “customer” there were several days where I felt he could have contacted us. We explained to him that because of the infection causing 9 of the puppies to die we felt that the “quality” and “health” of the puppies was not to our standard, but they had another view of this. He told us that we would not be getting our deposit back due to their still being potential puppies and now their other litter had potential puppies for us. We were taken back because we were never interested in this other litter as mentioned to them and we thought they clearly understood this. When Jim called us back to talk about this issue he sounded like a blabbering confused salesman, to be nice. He was telling us that they were the best Doberman breeders out there and that they have “x” amount of people contact them every day for a puppy and that we were making a mistake. He kept telling us that he was glad we didn’t take the 8 month old because we “young people” don’t understand a thing about business. He also kept calling the 8 month old the wrong name. You don’t sound very intelligent in making accusations if you don’t even know the dog's correct name.

So as I write this we are out our deposit and as frustrating as that is and as costly of a learning experience as it was we would rather be out our deposit than give Cambria Dobermans another cent of our money. Ann is convinced we have another Doberman puppy already and trust me I wish we did because I have been searching for almost 1.5 years now for the perfect girl, but we don’t have one. If I did her pictures would be plastered on here as well as my Facebook page and you won’t find any. Sadly our search continues. We know we might not change anyone’s opinion on them, but we just wanted to shed some light on some potential heartbreak and headaches for other potential owners out there searching for a breeder.

So I just wanted to state again a few things that I feel are very important in purchasing a Doberman from a breeder…
1. If it is the case, make sure the breeder clearly understands that you are only interested in one particular breeding when multiple breedings are mentioned. We thought we made this clear, but obviously it was not. Just saying it over the phone is not enough, make sure you have it documented in an email etc.
2. I would also talk to them about what you consider quality and what they consider quality. You both may have huge differences on this subject like we did. In our case they were made well aware that we wanted a healthy puppy and if 9 of the littermates died due to an infection I feel we have the right to be concerned about their health.
3. No matter how nice someone sounds on the phone and even if you have many phone conversations it is always best to meet them in person if possible.

I just want it to be known that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I am not posting this to anger or offend anyone rather my purpose is solely to help others avoid situations like what we encountered.

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We don't have children because our dogs are allergic to them!

greenkouki

Did you ask for more information about the 3 remaining puppies and their health? It sounds like you were immediately put off by the fact that 9 died when maybe there isn't any kind of health problem. I think it's right of you to be concerned, but it seems like you may have jumped to conclusions too quickly and possibly offended the breeder, unfortunately. Hope you find a puppy soon. There are many other reputable breeders out there.

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Darkevs

sounds to me like you and cambria did not 'click'.

sorry you will lose your deposit if you choose not to go with them.

maybe it was just not meant to be.

worse things in life.

good luck on your search for just the right DoberGirl, no matter where she shall be!

VZ-Doberman

Sorry to hear of your problem with Cambria. Keep looking and you will find your new best friend.

Fitzmar Dobermans

I just don't understand why breeders take deposits before they know what they have ........ there would be fewer problems like this one for sure! You might lose a buyer or two, but pet homes are not that hard to find. JMHO

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CH Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise"
AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil "Jezebel"

Dobes&Hounds

First, you had every right to be concerned about the health of the remaining puppies. A pyometra can indeed affect development. One of my dear breeder friends had a singleton from a bitch with pyo in the opposite horn of the uterus. It caused kidney damage, and he was in renal failure at 9 months.

I will give Cambria proper respect for breeding lovely Dobermans. Ann is a great handler, and you are correct, Jim IS a schmoozer and a salesman.
I would not personally buy from them. They are not as well-loved as one may think. You are not the first to have a similar experience.
I am sorry about your deposit. I don't understand why breeders take deposits before a litter is born. It is wrong of them to not return it.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you find your baby soon!

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JW Mercury's Secret Obsession OA OAJ WAC CGC HIC UDC ATT

*My Soul Mate*
1996-2007

If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon!

dobebug

So sorry you had this kind of an experience. I've sent you a p/m

nightgrace6

I dont want to get into deposits because I wholeheartedly believe in them to show the seriousness of a buyer initially but yeah...

Sorry about your experience and I hope it hasnt put you off getting another dobe!

Dobies 71

This took courage to state. And, I respect those who have the courage to stand up and say what they want/need.

Too many pussy foot around on these forums and are afraid to speak up or stand up to power.

I have had no dealings with these people, so I am not endorcing anything either way. I just recognize and respect others when they are not afraid to speak their mind either way.

And, I don't mean the speaking of the mind that goes on here in a "Breeder Bashing" which is so common place on these forums.

Quite frankly, I find the dog world to be very cruel. I find that there are different "camps" so to speak. Unfortunately, the "camps" hate one another. Arn't we all supposed to be in this for the love of the dog?

This is why so many new people attempt to come into the sport but get blown away by those more "seasoned." It is real discouraging to folks.

I guess its just something that goes with the territory. And, people who are trying to find their way get stepped on. Its impossible for them to know.

nightgrace6

Dog world does suck doesnt it.. I am in my own camp and I hate everyone... unless they give me a reason not too so I dont tend to pussyfoot. Just my experience with "big breeders" they get cocky and kennel blind and think they are the ****, not all but some, you just have to kind of say, you are pathetic and move on. That being said if I was Cambria and saw this I would refund you straight away...

Q734

To underline ^^^^THIS^^^^

Disclaimer: has Nothing to do w/Ann/Cambria....as I've no real personal experience w/her..

I am *nobody* in dog world & was *PUNKED* @ a show not long ago by a competing handler. I later deduced there must be tension between her and our handler because it took her awhile to figure out who I was until one day I had to go in the ring by myself.

I also witnessed a top handler being *PUNKED* at a show in a really awful way. I wish we knew who did it to her. Not going into details but there were witnesses.
This is bad for the breed. BAD,
As if dobermans don't have enough problems... it was a real eye opener I'll say.

ddvv

I don't understand how a reputable breeder that has "so many people asking about puppies" would not return a deposit with a situation like the one you described. If they have a waiting list and only 3 puppies why not make things right and let you have the deposit back.
Sad that you did everything right and ended up being cheated.

GrdnDelite

I am sorry you've had a negative experience. I have had no dealings with Cambria, so have no opinion

I would, though, recommend that, if you place another deposit (elsewhere, we'll presume), the receipt for that deposit should clearly state what breeding it is for, whether or not the pups are on the ground. If gender/color are vital to your choice, that also should be on the receipt.

That way, if something goes awry with the breeding or litter, or if a pup of the color/gender you require is not in the litter, it is clear that your deposit was meant only for that particular breeding/litter.

I have to say that, while I am very willing to make a deposit for a pup, I feel superstitious about placing a deposit on a pup that is not yet born and thriving. But, then, I hail from a time when one did not bring the crib or other large baby items into the house until the pregnancy was advanced enough that the baby was likely to survive without issue if born at that time.

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RedFawnRising

Capone'sMommy, you posted with grace and dignity, in a very articulate manner. Thank you for that, and for sharing your experience here.

I am sorry things did not work out well on this litter. Often, I find, in life, when things do not work out the way we wanted, it is because the Universe is about to give us another opportunity--to gift us with something we need.

I have no idea whether you'd consider or be interested in a rescued Doberman, but perhaps a young girl needing a home will find you.

If not, perhaps you'll find a breeder who not only does things to standard, but will also be a pleasant addition to your life, a support system, and part of your extended dog family.

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dapple

Could not agree more! Happens all the time. And Rudy (my current pup) is also the product of MANY avenues that either did not feel right to me...or did not work out. Don't feel discouraged....well maybe a tad over the money.....ha
But mostly feel excited that something amazing is around the corner. I find...that if you just keep moving towards your goal....everything will fall into place. This is the way I live all aspects of my life.

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Capone's Mommy

Thank you very much! I am a believer that things work out for reasons we can not explain. When we do get our girl I am sure it will be well worth all the wait and experiences, good and bad.

With that being said my husband and I have been looking at rescues around here for quite some time, but as quickly as the females come in they go out. Not good for us, but great for those dogs and their forever homes.

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We don't have children because our dogs are allergic to them!

KristenC

I didn't catch what area you're in, but the rescue I volunteer with always recommends getting through the approval process so that when new dogs come in, you're all set to adopt and eventually you're right at the top of the list.

I'm sorry you had this experience with Cambria. Keep your chin up, the girl that is meant for you will come along :-)

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Hogan, Sarah, & Cali (RIP)
Illinois Doberman Rescue Plus
http://beinghogan.blogspot.com/

MeadowCat

If you are interested in rescuing, I, too, recommend that you fill out an application and get approved. In the rescue I work with, occasionally we have dogs that never make the official "available" list, because we have an approved adopter waiting for a particular type of dog. For example, we had a litter born in rescue last year, and all were adopted by people who had been approved and were on our waiting list. If you hadn't filled out an application and had your home visit and been approved you never would have even known about those pups.

Good luck in your search for the right puppy, whether from a breeder that is a good fit for you or from a rescue.

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lulu582

I completely agree here. This is how I got my boy from our local rescue. I was approved and they knew the specifics such as age, sex, color, good with kids/dogs that I wanted. When he became available, he never went on the rescue's website because they immediately contacted me. Apparently with this rescue (as I'm sure with many others), there are many approved people waiting for the perfect doberman to come around, and when rescues get new dogs in, they contact these people before putting the dog on the site.

Good luck in your search, I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience. When stuff like this happens, I always look at it like it wasn't meant to be and something better will come along!

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Dobs4ever

(quote)Sad that you did everything right and ended up being cheated. (quote)

It has not been determined that anyone was cheated and to make a statment like that withoiut the facts is part of what stirs up crap on the internet.

For example - the contract might include the no refund policy if you cancel out.
2nd if they had more questions about the girl offered then they should have asked while they were there not say we did not know why she was available.

Whose responsibility is it to understand how things work??? I am betting Jim and Ann understand exactly how they work and why. The contract should have cleared it all up and if you did not understand before making the deposit is the time to understand things not afterward.

And I so agree that it might be an oil and water thing - you guys just did not click in person - I don't see how that can be Jim or Ann's falut any more than yours. No harm no foul.

They have a ton of clients and with as many as they deal with there will always be one or two that get their feathers ruffled.

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Dobs4ever -
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Dobes&Hounds

Breeder
From this forum

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JW Mercury's Secret Obsession OA OAJ WAC CGC HIC UDC ATT

*My Soul Mate*
1996-2007

If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon!

sam&macksmom

Perhaps they breed too much

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Capone's Mommy

You are definitely entitled to your opinion but I would try to practice what you preach. You stated…
You then stated…
So since you did not know the facts your accusations, which are completely false, make you sound rather ignorant. We did ask questions on the phone and also in person and kept getting different answers. It felt like there was something that we weren’t being told. We might have been wrong about that but still, the explanations should not have changed and contradicted each other like they did.
One other thing that you stated…
The contract did state that but we did not cancel out. We requested that the refund be returned because they did not have the quality of puppy that we wanted. It was not a show quality issue but a health quality issue as I already stated in my first post. There was nothing in any contract that defined what quality was. The only thing that was declared was that if the puppy did not meet our needs for quality, sex, or color then our deposit would promptly be returned. I don’t really see how you can argue with us on our wanting the deposit back since that’s what the contract said but we are moving on. What comes around goes around and I’m sure that Jim and Ann and also us will get what we deserve in the end.

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DobieGal15

My breeder made it clear to me that if I was not happy with a puppy from the litter Iwas purchasing from, or if she didnt feel one of the puppies would fit my home perfectly that I would have to wait until the following year (or so) for the next litter and I was okay with that, with the understanding that a deposit is a deposit. I am so sorry you have had a misunderstanding and/or bad experience. I do hope you find your best friend soon, from people you trust and feel comfortable with. If you havent considered rescue, give it a thought!
On a side note, I have put a (rather hefty) deposity with a breeder who did not return it when they decided to "get out of the breeding business", which was actually a blessing in disguise because they turned out to be less-than-stellar ......

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SusaninCali

When the breeder I bought my pup from last year decided that we made her preliminary cut, I talked to her on the phone about the litter she had on the ground and the next few breedings. She told me that she no longer took deposits unless she had what the buyer wanted and normally there was more demand than supply. I really thought I was going to have to wait for another breeding (or go with another breeder) because it was several more weeks before she contacted me by email asking if I wanted to send in a deposit. Before we did send our check I comfirmed in email the breeding pair, sex/color/quality of puppy and also sent letter with same info. We had no problems thankfully.

To the OP, if you feel that you should get your deposit returned based on the contract, you can always try smalll claims court. A hassle I know.

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Previous Dobermans - Elke, 12 yrs (RIP); Heidi, 7 yrs (RIP)