Fitzmar Dobermans

all I can say is that every time I read one of these threads about buyers losing deposits, I feel I made the right decision not to take deposits. I might take one after the puppies are born and the buyers have been approved, but for sure not before they are born. I just take names and preferences - until I know I have what they want. Then I start to seriously talk to possible homes.

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CH Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise"
AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil "Jezebel"

gatehouse

In fairness, I had someone contact me regarding puppies and they had a deposit with Cambria. They had been waiting for a bit and were going to ask for it back because they weren't able to get a pup from the breeding they wanted. I saw the email that they received saying they would refund the deposit if they liked, or they could take a pup from a different litter. It was a nice, non-confrontational email. I told the person I would take a pup from the litter they offered if it was me, and to leave the deposit with them and do that. I beleive that's what they did. They had already one or two dogs from Cambria as well. I really think sometimes people just don't mesh well, and it's best to find a breeder you can work with. I've had some that I knew I would end up wanting to pummel, even if they would be a good home LOL .... I refer to them to other breeders :-) There is the right breeder for each purchaser. Not everyone breeder is going to be suitable.

On the topic of deposits, I do take deposits, and I leave it up to the individual as to when they want to leave a deposit. Not everyone wants to leave one before a pup is born. And some want to leave it right away, even before meeting, because people with deposits are going to be the ones that have first choice on the upcoming pups. I just tell people that if they send a deposit, and we meet and decide it's not a good match, that the deposit will be refunded. I've done that once :-)

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Maura Reilly,
Gatehouse Perm. Reg'd Dobermanns
Ontario, Canada

MaryAndDobes

I don't think there is any issue with taking deposits as long as you're going to play fair and be clear. It's not the act of giving or taking a deposit that is the problem - it's the people who either don't understand what they're depositing on or the breeder who hasn't been clear about what the buyer should expect. There should definitely be receipts given and something written down regarding what the deposit is for exactly.

IMO, even non-refundable deposits for changing their minds are often well worth paying back because it's often the breeder that just dodged a bullet, even if that bullet is just the bad publicity that often comes from such a situation.

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DobeGirl07

I know someone that had a very similar experience with Cambria Dobermans. She too, was waiting for a PUPPY from a litter of Cambria's and they tried to get her to instead take an older puppy who was a bit timid. Needless to say, she did not want the older puppy because of temperament and wanted her deposit back. They would NOT refund her the deposit. This seems to be a normal game the Cambria plays.

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Lindsay
CH Allure Dream Machine Alisaton CGC TDI
CH Sanstone Kachina Believe It or Not

Jennie ATX

I'm just a buyer but I really appreciate this approach. I know people are disappointed when they put a deposit down and it turns out there's no puppy for them. From a buyer's perspective it's sad that there's no puppy for you but in addition it's like, "Glad I let you borrow my money for 2 months.."

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Ziggy - born 6/6/09

Kalecho

I also agree with this, what's the reasoning for taking a deposit before the puppies are born? You don't know what you will get or even if there will be a litter.

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Pat Reinhardt
Shadeko Dobermans
AKC Ch Kaywood's Clear Nite Conquest
AKC GCh Ch Shadeko's When Dreams Come True CD
AKC Ch Shadeko's Twist N Shout
AKC Ch Shadeko's Bringin' On The Heat

dragonman

Whenever you are involved in a purchase transaction you are responsible to know the terms of that transaction. This applies to the sale of any item (e.g. leasing a car, deposits for rentals) and in this case, the puppy is the item.

As for working with Cambria in this situation, I'd like to point out that there is much stress in whelping a litter. Double digit litters like this one are like having 2 litters at once and require even more energy to care for. Puppies have to be bottle fed around the clock. The Dam must be monitored 24-7 so that she does not fall asleep on a defenseless puppy or get cranky towards them. The first few weeks after whelping and before weaning are very demanding as well.

The emotional attachment of the owner/breeder becomes very strong during this time as we fight to keep every puppy living. When a puppy dies there is significant grieving by the breeder/owner. Nine puppies deaths means 9 times as much grief.

Its not surprising to hear that Jim was a bit intense during this time after whelping and loosing 9 of the 12 puppies. I suspect he had not had very much sleep during this time and was exhausted. Obviously, when that tired and in grief, many of us would struggle to keep our heads about us.

Reputable breeders such as Ann and Jim at Cambria do offer the buyer alternative choices as they did in this situation. Many have waiting lists that span several litters and patience will eventually land you a very nice puppy.

As many of you know I bred my bitch Mariah, Am/Can CH Starlaine Willd Willd West CGC to Ann and Jim's Nick, CH Cambria's Out for Justice. This was a live breeding and required much coordination on both sides. The result 8 beautiful puppies who found absolutely wonderful homes. But there was not enough puppies to go around so a waiting list was created for upcoming litters. I would not hesitate to work with Cambria again in the future which may in fact be next spring when Mariah comes in season again.

If you are truly interested in a specific breeder's line or program, then its worth the wait. One of the puppy buyers from Nick X Mariah "The Wild Bunch" litter had patiently waited for nearly 2 decades for another Starlaine puppy. You might asked why she waited so long? Well some of it was timing, not enough females to go around, and the fact that she only wanted a Starlaine puppy.

Tracy, Mariah, and Victor

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monicaei

Someone waited two decades (20 years) for a puppy? That's kinda tough to believe. So they got on a wait list at 20 and got their perfect puppy at 40? Or were they 30 and got the pup at 50?

Really?

StarlaineK9

The lady we are speaking of bought a doberman from me in 1995. That dog lived to be almost 10. After the loss of Jessie she was not sure if she wanted another doberman and her husband did not. He was too attached to Jessie. So they got another breed instead...one that is elderly now. Doing the math yet?

After all that time going by, Wanda then started thinking about getting another doberman and had kept in contact with me over the years. She only wanted a dog from me, and since I breed seldom, it was this litter in which there was a puppy for her. So you see not only is it possible to wait decades, it actually happened.

It's really not that confusing.

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Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets
AKC Breeder of Merit

monicaei

Yes, that makes much more sense than..

If you are truly interested in a specific breeder's line or program, then its worth the wait. One of
the puppy buyers from Nick X Mariah "The Wild Bunch" litter had patiently waited for nearly 2 decades for another Starlaine puppy. You might asked why she waited so long? Well some of it
was timing, not enough females to go around, and the fact that she only wanted a Starlaine puppy.


THIS.

The whole story is wonderful, and endearing, and sweet. Without needing embellishment.

StarlaineK9

Come on now. Aren't we nit picking a little with how Tracy worded her post? You could have just asked her to clarify what she meant.

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Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets
AKC Breeder of Merit

monicaei

My bad. It read, to me, as if someone had waited patiently for two decades for a puppy. I should have asked her to clarify.

Dobies 71

Well...I read it the same way...I think she was trying to make a long story short. But it then was misleading, and made me think the same.

I got the same impression; so you are not alone.

StarlaineK9

LOLOL Oh good lord. Wanda did wait that long. Tracy wasn't trying to be misleading for heavens sake.

OK enough about that...we now return to our previous thread....

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Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets
AKC Breeder of Merit

Dobies 71

You know...I'm sort of tired of this jumping up to defend.

I did not say that your friend purpossly mislead. I said she was, I thought making a long story short, which lead to the misunderstanding.

Really Elaine, this is getting carried away again.

p8ballmom

Not sure what the issues are between some on this thread and definetly not taking sides.

I read the story and thought someone was on waiting list for 2 decades. So it was a little confusing.

Adobe4two

I've waited three..
And will probably have to wait three more due to logistics.
Sucks though, we're at a perfect place in life now to get one (no debt, strong savings, comfortable level of disposable income, comfortable living, lots of time to spend on training & socializing. Downside is even if we could get a pup sent to us, training would have to be limited to obedience because there are no Schutzhund clubs available to me here... I could probably do conformation showing pretty easily though with the FCI / KKC)...

So that will be six years of waiting easy, I can absolutely understand waiting as long as it took (20+ included) if you knew what you wanted...

dragonman

Well - the morale of the story is: "Some things are worth the wait." The details were really not that important. I was just trying to give an example of patience and waiting for what you wanted the most from someone you trusted and respected. Of course, the timing for all of this was extremely important as well.

Tracy, Mariah, and Victor.

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nightgrace6

gee some members are rude.

OP, have your issues been sorted yet?

sandy2233

"What is now the expert, was once the beginner. Pass on the knowledge" I think the dog world should have a whole new respect for the "Novice" whether it be in conformation handling or obedience/rally. Because without the "novice" there will be no future. Think about it.

Bissfreddie

I'm so sorry to here about your experience. And let me say I don't want this to sound like I'm defending either side. I have also been breeding for many years and we only have a litter every other year or so for some of those same reasons you speak about. We house raise all our puppies for socialization and so when they do go to new homes they have all had that special attention and used to being in the house that you just can't do when you have multiple litters. Let me also say that we have had a female get an infection like toxic milk syndrome and have lost a number of pups. And the ones that survived and we bottle feed lived to a ripe old age after becoming a champion and producing healthy pups. But I understand your concern. If I can help you find a new addition to your family please email me and I'll try to help. I've been breeding for 26 years and have bred,trained and shown many of our pups to their championships. So I know most breeders out there that produce healthy beautiful pups. And Cambria has produced many great dogs.But there are a lot of breeders that have such a high demand that they have to or chose to produce many litters and just can't give them the same attention someone who breeds much less often can. I also get that once you have your heart set on a particular breeding its hard to just pick from a different litter. I've shown with Jim and Ann for a lot of years and know they are very busy all the time but I know that doesn't make it any better. Once again if I can help just let me know .good luck and I hope you have a great holidays. You can see who I am at windancerdobermans.com.....Tim

Darkevs

are you 'related' to horizons ready freddie?

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Thanks for making this signature for me Amelia!

greyman003

Brilliant post, very articulate.

Good luck with your search.

ajp240

We also did not "click" with Cambria when we were looking for a puppy. It worked out for the better for us, and I am sure it will too for you! Good luck on your search.

Bissfreddie

Yes she is our foundation girl. Who was in the DPCA Top 20 two years Ina row and a contender two more. She also produced 6 Champions out of 10 pups. And would have been 10 for 10 if we would have placed the other four in show homes also. She was my pride and joy.