What health tests are appropriate for breeding dobermans - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

DobermanTalk.com is the premier Doberman Dog Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-02-2012, 09:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
What health tests are appropriate for breeding dobermans

Ok so after reading this report:

http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator...91490&mode=prd

I have decided the best thing I can do to combat it is to become a responsible breeder. Now I have never been a breeder and I never thought I would become one but there is so much bad stuff going down in pedigree dogs that I believe it is necessary for people who care to take action.
You may think this is a strange logic but ah well, better to help me than not, I say.
So for starters what are the health tests that should be carried out on dobermans and a quick description of their aims would be good.
You may or may not be aware that I have two bitches from a working line of police service dogs whose temperaments are spot on, both for the home and working they will need to be health tested first.
Obviously I will be needing to find a male Stud that will be a good match to them which I feel will be the hard part. Trying to find someone that is either willing to carry out the same health tests on their stud dog, either financed by them or myself if they are too tight.
I won't be looking for a show dog but rather a good working doberman that is either working or just has the potential but it hasn't been realised if that happens to be a show dog that isn't as inbred as Cleatus the slack jawed yokel then that is fine too.

Thanks in advance, everyone is welcome to give their opinions on my plans even if you diagree with it, I want a whole spectrum of perspective on this.

Anyway, post or rant away.....
Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-02-2012, 10:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
formerly AvianAntics
 
ShelianDobe's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,040
Location: SW Michigan
Dogs Name: *AKC GCH/UKC CH Lyndobe's Wheel of Fortune - "Wheeler" *Windsong's Fame N Fortune v Shelian "Fame"
Titles: Wheeler - AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO1
Dogs Age: Wheeler: 11/13/08 Fame: 07/10/13
Gallery Pics: 17
Visit ShelianDobe's Gallery
Thanks: 1,987
Thanked 10,424 Times in 2,902 Posts
Images: 17
ShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond reputeShelianDobe has a reputation beyond repute
What the heck....

First, even though you aren't looking for show dogs, you do want correct conformation. This is important for all dogs regardless of their "job", helps keep them from breaking down so they can do their job.

Secondly, IMO - you need to research your dogs pedigrees, find out what their ancestors died of. You can do all the testing you want, but if the dogs Parents/Grandparents died of DCM -- regardless what the testing says, still not a good idea to breed the dog. Remember that heart testing (holter/echo) only gives you the picture for that moment. All to often a holter/echo comes back just fine, but the dog keels over dead a few weeks, months or a year later. Happens more often than you might think.

So, lets say you have great conformation, great temperament and no immediate relatives died from DCM and its time for health testing. IMO, you want the following tests:

vWD
DCM (DNA, Holter & Echo)
Thyroid
Liver
Kidney
CERF
Hips
Elbows
Personally, I would also want the DNA Color test, so I could avoid breeding Dilutes, as well.

Interesting post. Will be very interesting to read the responses. Batten down the hatches and prepare for the onslaught. LOL!
__________________
Shelly Wing
AKC GCH/UKC CH, RO3 Lyndobe's Wheel of Fortune, "Wheeler"
AKC Ptd/UKC CH Windsong's Fortune Hunter v Shelian, "Spock"
AKC Maj Ptd Windsong's Fame N Fortune v Shelian, "Fame"

ShelianDobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Apr 2009
The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to ShelianDobe For This Useful Post:
BenVera (09-03-2012), bubsy (09-04-2012), Coco Loco (09-03-2012), cshellenberger (09-06-2012), dobedream (09-05-2012), GingerGunlock (09-02-2012), K&M (09-03-2012), maggiemay (09-02-2012), millerdobes (09-02-2012), MsMoppett (09-03-2012), Okie-dobie (09-09-2012), RedFawnRising (09-05-2012), the_discowhore (09-03-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-02-2012)
Old 09-02-2012, 10:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
terriorist entertainer
 
Australdi's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,397
Location: Australia (Tasmania)
Dogs Name: Basil (failed foster JRT x Heeler), Zillah (MidniteMyth Harley) RIP, Damon (Joelfield Mikko) (RIP)
Titles: future agility star, Zil: Mr Personality forever.
Dogs Age: aprox 1 yr. Zil got to 6 years 3 and a half months, Daims got to 10 1/2 years
Gallery Pics: 7
Visit Australdi's Gallery
Thanks: 17,407
Thanked 6,148 Times in 1,864 Posts
Images: 7
Australdi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond repute
Talk to your breeder first. You need them as mentors and to be on board with any breeding. Work with their program. If their program isn't of a high enough standard...do not breed your bitches as they likely aren't either.

Start researching genetics....not just the pedigrees, but a scientific understanding of inheritance and expression.
Learn about line breeding ...not the hype...but the two sided coin that it is. You need to understand its principles and what it can illuminate and set.

Title your bitches in whatever venues you are breeding for. Objective testing.

Once you've got through all that....then worry about the health test certifications and stud matching.

(annual health checks like heart, liver and thyroid should be done each year anyway after the age of 2).
__________________
"I've never been so obsessed (as now) with poop in all my life!"
Australdi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Oct 2010
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Australdi For This Useful Post:
GingerGunlock (09-02-2012), millerdobes (09-02-2012), Okie-dobie (09-09-2012), RedFawnRising (09-05-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-02-2012)
Old 09-02-2012, 11:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
Extraordimary
 
MaryAndDobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,322
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dogs Name: Shelby, Kismet, Royal, Moxie, Copper & Wicca
Titles: Yes
Dogs Age: 10, 9, 7, 7, 6 & 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit MaryAndDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 3
Thanked 13,933 Times in 2,763 Posts
MaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
You may or may not be aware that I have two bitches from a working line of police service dogs whose temperaments are spot on, both for the home and working
According to who, what tests, what certifications, what titles?
__________________
MaryAndDobes is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to MaryAndDobes For This Useful Post:
Asmit (09-02-2012), bubsy (09-04-2012), EmilyB (09-02-2012), GingerGunlock (09-02-2012), OliviaB (09-03-2012), rainddobes (09-12-2012), RedFawnRising (09-05-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-02-2012)
Old 09-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #5 (permalink)
sufferin succotash
 
sam&macksmom's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,167
Location: Doberville
Dogs Name: Sammy and Mack
Titles: CGC,TDI,TT
Dogs Age: Sam-8 Mack-10ish
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit sam&macksmom's Gallery
Thanks: 8,914
Thanked 18,769 Times in 6,513 Posts
sam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond reputesam&macksmom has a reputation beyond repute
If someone touts themselves as a working breeder, they better have working titles to back it up. It's great you want to complete all the health testing. But, imo, that's only part of the picture.
__________________
Reputable Breeder Checklist: Here
DPCA: Here
UDC: Here
sam&macksmom is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jul 2009
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to sam&macksmom For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-02-2012), Asmit (09-02-2012), Cathy43 (09-03-2012), cshellenberger (09-06-2012), EmilyB (09-02-2012), millerdobes (09-02-2012), rainddobes (09-12-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-02-2012)
Old 09-02-2012, 02:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
Alpha
 
workingk9s's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,746
Location: Nor Cal
Dogs Name: Eva, Ija
Titles: Eva - SchH3, IPO3, AWD1, FH1, StPr 1, WAC, CD, RN. Ija - UKC Ch., BH, WAC
Dogs Age: Eva 8/04, Ija 10/2011
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit workingk9s's Gallery
Thanks: 5,877
Thanked 15,157 Times in 3,804 Posts
workingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond repute
2 good working line bitches, huh. Cool, where did you get them? What are the lines you speak of?

ETA: Doesn't one of them have a heart murmur?
__________________

Erynn

Last edited by workingk9s; 09-02-2012 at 02:40 PM..
workingk9s is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Mar 2008
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to workingk9s For This Useful Post:
Asmit (09-02-2012), Australdi (09-02-2012), EmilyB (09-02-2012), GingerGunlock (09-02-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-02-2012)
Old 09-02-2012, 03:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Amelia_'s Avatar
 
Posts: 2,877
Dogs Name: Aspen, Rupert & Tobey

Gallery Pics: 17
Visit Amelia_'s Gallery
Thanks: 6,270
Thanked 6,788 Times in 2,010 Posts
Images: 17
Amelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond repute
I cant read the article, is my computer playing up or has it gone down?

Is it along the lines of pedigree dogs exposed by Jemma Harrison, by any chance?
Amelia_ is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Oct 2011
Old 09-02-2012, 08:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Adara's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,395
Location: Sacramento, CA
Dogs Name: Flirt Dobe; Gabby Havoc and Envy - Vizslas
Titles: Flirt, OA, NAJ, NF Gabby Ch JH NA OAJ NF NJP - Havoc, GCH, JH OA OAJ , Envy CH, JH, RN, CGC, TDI
Dogs Age: 7, 11, 5, 1.5
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit Adara's Gallery
Thanks: 18,267
Thanked 24,575 Times in 7,200 Posts
Images: 6
Adara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond repute
You mentioned this in one of your other posts:

"I am also interested, as said above my Dogs came from a line of working police dogs through a strange way. Their Grandfather was the last one as he baulked at entering a pitch dark room and was retired, the new owner started breeding from him."

At what age did he baulk and I'd question them breeding them after he baulked as a WORKING dog if he could not longer work. I am not picking on you so I hope it does not come across that way. Just questioning the line of working dogs if the last in the line was a grandfather who could not work.

I would also get the heart issue diagnosed and make sure it doesn't run in the lines, etc.
__________________
Colleen
Flirt, ADAMAS All the Girls Do It, OA, NAJ, NF, CL2-F, CL2-H
Gabby, Ch Gold Run's Token of Rumor, JH, NA, OAJ, NF, NJP, CL2,CL3-H, CL3-F Vizsla
Havoc, BISS GCh HRQ Guess Who's In Trouble, JH, OA, OAJ, CL2-H, CL2-S, CL2-F Vizsla, National AOM winner
Envy, Ch Kizmar's Bailey HotShot of Adara, Vizsla, JH, RN, CGC, TDI National AOM winner
Adara is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: May 2009
The Following User Says Thank You to Adara For This Useful Post:
RedFawnRising (09-05-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 07:34 AM   #9 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
Cool, all awesome posts! Thanks.

Please bear in mind this is just a thought at the moment, its not set in stone, many factors will play a part in whether this happens.

I think there may be a confusion here with the term 'Working Dogs' I am not talking about working sports which no offence I would refer to as sport dogs.
It's great and all, been thinking of doing it myself but a sports dog wont necessarily be good service or protection dogs IMO. Don't really care if anyone takes offence at this, my family have been training protection dogs for generations so I am a bit biased I spose. Not just dobermans, there are many types of dogs that are great at protection and security, it's down to the individual dog not breed. The criteria for choosing whether a dog will be trained includes temperament (many facets of), physical capability, drive, willingness to do the work (which I consider 2 different things) and a good bit of sixth sense, something you can't quite put your finger on but you just know.

I also think maybe there is some confusion as to what I actually want to do.
For the vast majority of Doberman owners their dogs are not going to be show or title chasers they want a Doberman that is a good family pet and a home protector one which you can take for walks, wont be all growling at other dogs and people and giving Dobermans a bad name.
I won't be all shouting 'my dogs are from working lines huzzah! look at their titles they got playing a really fun game'. In fact I won't mention any working ability at all, they can see that from my dogs if they are after that in particular.
My aim is to breed good healthy 'Dogs' which are easily trained and won't drop dead or cost unfathomable money in vet fees, medication and emotional turmoil. I will be aiming to ensure they have the correct amount of drive for a family pet, not too much so as they are impossible puppies for the average owner, remember everyone has their FIRST Doberman at some time and as many people on here are well aware a 36kg 7 month old male doberman is NOT for the first time dog owner and that is an average drive example to boot.
God help anyone that decides they want a high drive working sports line male doberman if they have never had a dog before.

Now I am getting off the point.

Avianantics: Thanks, I know I have a bit of a reputation for not being bothered about conformation but like said above I look for dogs to do their jobs based on their individual physical and mental make up. However I agree that if I were to be selling 'DOBERMANS' then physical conformation is very important, yes I will be taking this into consideration. Also thanks for the constructive advice. This is the sort of info I am looking for.
Having said that I wouldn't use a 'Show conformation' GSD for anything other than playing with in the back yard. Can someone please go into detail why 'conformation' is so important for a dogs working ability, I am confused, are you talking strictly physical conformation or the whole 'standard'
I have a good interest and fairly good understanding of genetics in general and have a buddy that is a geneticists that will help me if I ask for it.


Australdi: I have no answer to this post other than: Thank you for this valuable advice, this is the sort of stuff I am looking for.

Mary and Dobes: I suspect your post is a bit antagonistic is this correct? If not then I apologise and could you please elaborate.
I am not sure I can be more specific than he was a Police dog and by default was a working dog, see being a police dog is a job, they like, go to work and bite people and sniff things and stuff

Sam&macksmom: The breeder I got my bitches from did not mention this until I phoned her a year later to give her an update on Becca and Tilly and I mentioned I had gone to check out a schutzhund club. It was more of a missing piece of a jigsaw rather than a reason I bought them. I had already assessed them and their parents myself when I went to look at them but have been pleasantly surprised that they have outperformed my expectations so this I took as a sort of explanation.
I am pretty good a choosing puppies for my work after 28 years of doing it, obviously I would go with my dad when I was a boy and he taught me how to pick a good puppy or asses someone else's dog that approached him for training, he wouldn't just train any dog, he turned plenty of people down, including dobermans. He trained all sorts, from Boxers to believe it or not Golden retrievers, Dobermans don't have the monopoly on protection. In fact in my opinion MOST dobermans have not got it in them when it comes down to the real world where some smack head or alky is screaming at you and waving a hammer around, this sort of **** happened regularly where we used to live. I'd rather have any bullterrier than the AVERAGE doberman in this situation, fact of the matter is the dobermans physical presence is usually enough of a deterrent which is cool.

WorkingK9's: Your mother

Amelia: It is but more better.

Adara: I am not sure but can probably find out, he wasn't young though he had been working a while, maybe there were other instances of fear. To be honest I won't be holding that against him, my dogs have no problem with it, it's not like its an inherited trait, the being scared of the dark not the fear Many service dog trainers will not train Dobermans because they are too highly strung and unreliable so he must have been made of pretty good stuff to get that far. I assume he would have had three years training, two at least, then say its only 2 years in service thats 4 years old, I think she said he was 5, so close to retirement anyway.That incedent will have been down to incorrect training IMO but when you are doing a raid and a dog does that, I suppose he has just gotta go.


On the heart issue I have been investigating that with the vet and so far so good he says she does not have a murmur, It's probably me being paranoid after Pickle keeled over. If she does end up with heart trouble then she won't be used. I think a more pressing bit of research I need to do is if Tilly does not have the problem then WHY?

Ok that is that answered as far as I am concerned, if anyone has more questions or need more clarity than please ask.
I believe my aim is for the benefit of Dobermans as a breed so any and all questions, help and advice will be appreciated by me, any puppy's I produce and future doberman owners.
By the way I am not stupid, if breeders and title chasers want to flame me that is fine I don't care, the type of breeder that flames me rather than helps is clearly part of the problem not the solution same goes for the 'working elite' so flame away my brain will filter out the bullshit from the gold dust.

Last edited by Matt Vandart; 09-03-2012 at 07:41 AM..
Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
Old 09-03-2012, 08:30 AM   #10 (permalink)
MY BEST FRIEND
 
VZ-Doberman's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,816
Location: Delaware
Dogs Name: Briarwood Back To Basics aka Bacchus
Titles: Yes..........91 titles, awards and certificates and is a service dog.
Dogs Age: 6 Years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit VZ-Doberman's Gallery
Thanks: 8,119
Thanked 14,253 Times in 4,423 Posts
VZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond repute
I find your dismissive and condescending attitude towards what you refer to as "breeders, title chasers and the working elite" (your words not mine) inappropriate and insulting.

Your aim "to breed good healthy dogs" blah blah blah is the same sales pitch bybs use....to cater to a market share that don't know what a doberman really is nor for that matter care. They just want something, anything that looks like a dobe no matter how far off the temperament is from doberman, no matter how far off the conformation is from doberman. Dobermans are a working breed, from what you've posted you want to breed the "doberman" out of them. The breeders, title chasers and working elite, as you refer to us, are proving every day by competing with our K9 partners that our dogs are still dobermans......not some watered down dobe wanna be.
VZ-Doberman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2009
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to VZ-Doberman For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), arankin (10-01-2012), Cathy43 (09-03-2012), HarvestMoon (09-03-2012), Jaspernator (09-05-2012), Kalecho (09-03-2012), Nynaeve (09-05-2012), OliviaB (09-03-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 08:47 AM   #11 (permalink)
Back Off
 
Asmit's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,721
Location: Knoxville, TN
Dogs Name: Zeus, Ascomannis Tarzan
Titles: Zeus:CGC TDI BH Argo: BH CGC IPO 1 Kovu: BH
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Asmit's Gallery
Thanks: 4,130
Thanked 4,403 Times in 1,340 Posts
Asmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond reputeAsmit has a reputation beyond repute
I complete agree with Adara. BTW there are working 'sport' dobermann breeders in europe whose dogs are titled in sport and dogs from their breeding are also actual police force rated dogs. Not getting 'dismissed' at the age of 5 for shying away from people. And they actually have proof of these accomplishments. Why would I buy from someone like you who claims such working ability when 'x' breeder can actually back up their claims?

Also, the way you answered workingk9's question was outright immature. If you are going to be a breeder, you should not be 'shy' about touting your bloodlines. As an informed buyer, anyone would like to use the bloodlines to learn more about your dogs and how traits are passed down through a particular line. Any of the reputable breeders, working, show, etc, would be more than happy to display their pedigree, tell their story, and say who they got the dogs from. Why would anyone take a breeder seriously who will not even answer such basic questions?

If you are going to be a breeder, please do it right.
Asmit is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Nov 2011
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Asmit For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), bubsy (09-04-2012), Cathy43 (09-03-2012), HarvestMoon (09-03-2012), Jaspernator (09-05-2012), Nynaeve (09-05-2012), OliviaB (09-03-2012), River (09-09-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012), workingk9s (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 09:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
terriorist entertainer
 
Australdi's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,397
Location: Australia (Tasmania)
Dogs Name: Basil (failed foster JRT x Heeler), Zillah (MidniteMyth Harley) RIP, Damon (Joelfield Mikko) (RIP)
Titles: future agility star, Zil: Mr Personality forever.
Dogs Age: aprox 1 yr. Zil got to 6 years 3 and a half months, Daims got to 10 1/2 years
Gallery Pics: 7
Visit Australdi's Gallery
Thanks: 17,407
Thanked 6,148 Times in 1,864 Posts
Images: 7
Australdi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond reputeAustraldi has a reputation beyond repute
Matt, I don't think Working k9's question warranted such a desultory and flippant response. It was a genuine and valid question. The lines your bitches are from does have a very big bearing on whether they are worth breeding. (don't underestimate this).

Objective testing such as bite sports is very much about testing nerve under pressure, and also shouldn't be dismissed lightly. (sure there's issues within it)...but it still had a very valid purpose and can give a good indication which lines have "it" and which lines don't.

If you want to breed to improve the breed...don't breed for the lowest common demonimator of owners (there's already too many who do, and they are not doing the right thing by the breed). A well bred dobe is a handful. It does require an experienced and savy owner. It requires an owner who is 100% commited to being a responsible and engaged owner. Health and temperment are paramount....but the true temperment is a working dog and all that entails.
__________________
"I've never been so obsessed (as now) with poop in all my life!"
Australdi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Oct 2010
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Australdi For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), Cathy43 (09-03-2012), Kayree (09-07-2012), Lucius_veras (09-05-2012), Shelly (09-12-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012), workingk9s (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 10:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Amelia_'s Avatar
 
Posts: 2,877
Dogs Name: Aspen, Rupert & Tobey

Gallery Pics: 17
Visit Amelia_'s Gallery
Thanks: 6,270
Thanked 6,788 Times in 2,010 Posts
Images: 17
Amelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond reputeAmelia_ has a reputation beyond repute
I'm on my phone so have to keep it short! PDE and similar writings focus on the bad breeders and don't make any mention on the breeders who are trying to improve the breed, in all aspects including health, without excluding other aspects that make a Dobermann a dobermann.

We do have quite a few breeders in the UK and Ireland who are already working to improve the breed; in conformation, temperament, health, working ability and just overall type. IMO, if you're not willing to invest 100% in the development of all aspects of the breed, you would be much better supporting breeders who are doing this by buying their puppies and educating other people to buy from these breeders, rather than trying to do it yourself without the commitment and the knowledge to complete it properly. You can also help improve the breed health by donating samples and information to research when there are trials, for example for DCM.
Amelia_ is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Oct 2011
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Amelia_ For This Useful Post:
Australdi (09-03-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 10:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
Alpha
 
OliviaB's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,617
Location: Georgia
Dogs Name: Gunner
Titles: Resident cookie thief
Dogs Age: Born 6/2/11
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit OliviaB's Gallery
Thanks: 3,098
Thanked 4,815 Times in 1,201 Posts
OliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond reputeOliviaB has a reputation beyond repute
All I'm going to say is that your response to the valid question from Working K9 is something I would expect to come from my five year old. Good luck with anyone taking you seriously after an immature response like that.
__________________
Olivia and Gunner

OliviaB is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2011
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to OliviaB For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), arankin (10-01-2012), Australdi (09-03-2012), Feverhaus (09-04-2012), Shelly (09-12-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012), wantsaDobe (09-12-2012), workingk9s (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 11:39 AM   #15 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
I find your dismissive and condescending attitude towards what you refer to as "breeders, title chasers and the working elite" (your words not mine) inappropriate and insulting.

My problem with breeders is they are the ones that have created the genetic problems with dobermans, yes there are good responsible and caring breeders out there and I am not aiming at these breeders. The breeders that do my head in are the line breeders that are in fact breeding for ONE physical trait, do you deny this is the case?
My problem with title chasers is that this is THE ONLY benchmark they use for a good working dog. Did Mr Doberman compete for titles?
I feel no one can deny there is a working elite out there that completely dismiss any Dog unless it comes from a titled working line. The fact of the matter is any dog has the potential to be good at these sports some are obviously more predisposed than others.


Your aim "to breed good healthy dogs" blah blah blah is the same sales pitch bybs use....to cater to a market share that don't know what a doberman really is nor for that matter care. They just want something, anything that looks like a dobe no matter how far off the temperament is from doberman, no matter how far off the conformation is from doberman. Dobermans are a working breed, from what you've posted you want to breed the "doberman" out of them. The breeders, title chasers and working elite, as you refer to us, are proving every day by competing with our K9 partners that our dogs are still dobermans......not some watered down dobe wanna be.
Well I am clearly nieve in this aspect and personally I think you have more of a problem with BYB in dobermans over the pond than here, I could be wrong. I personally have never dealt with dodgy breeders. This thread unless you hadn't noticed is to help me become a good and responsible breeder. If you have nothing constructive to say I suggest you say nothing but by the way I would love to have some constructive input from yourself, I feel it wont happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
I complete agree with Adara. BTW there are working 'sport' dobermann breeders in europe whose dogs are titled in sport and dogs from their breeding are also actual police force rated dogs. Not getting 'dismissed' at the age of 5 for shying away from people. And they actually have proof of these accomplishments. Why would I buy from someone like you who claims such working ability when 'x' breeder can actually back up their claims?

Dog didn't shy away from a person. I don't doubt that what you say is the case, it is logical that a dog from a good sport working line would be good as a service dog at what point did I say that they would not be good? There is a pretty good chance that he came from a line of sport working dogs, I will have to investigate. It doesn't mean that there are not dogs with jobs out there that havn't got any titles. I suggest you read my post again, I am not intending to claim any working ability. I'm sure there are many people on this forum that just skim read posts.

Also, the way you answered workingk9's question was outright immature. If you are going to be a breeder, you should not be 'shy' about touting your bloodlines. As an informed buyer, anyone would like to use the bloodlines to learn more about your dogs and how traits are passed down through a particular line. Any of the reputable breeders, working, show, etc, would be more than happy to display their pedigree, tell their story, and say who they got the dogs from. Why would anyone take a breeder seriously who will not even answer such basic questions?

Because I don't know the answers yet, it could be bullshit for all I know. However I have got two extremely good working Pups whats the problem? I should just dismiss them as I don't at this current time know their lines? Should I dismiss them if they prove to be as good as I suspect just becuse they are not from accepted and well known working lines? They havn't hit a plateau yet once, they get better everyday admitedly Becca is going through a teen fuss but that will pass. Am I producing puppies and selling them yet? No, have I at any time said that I will be breeding from these dogs and claiming working ability at this time?Have I said I am going to get them knocked up next week? No, I have asked for help on Health tests that should be done, I have to start somewhere, and decided to start at health tests, what would be the point in me competing and getting titles only to find the bitch is gonna drop dead in a month because she has a dilated heart? what is the point in me spending time researching their lines if I then go on to find out she has hyperthyroidism or Von Willebrands?
I have however taken on board what everyone is saying and believe it or not,I am not taking any of it negatively.
On the point of workingk9's post, your trying to tell me that hasn't been put across antagonistically? One line, vague? Maybe I am paranoid as there is a clique of elitists on this forum and that is a fact. If it was genuine I apologise, but seriously maybe a bit more effort into a post would be pretty handy. I have asked for help here not a series of one liners.


If you are going to be a breeder, please do it right.
That, is the aim of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Australdi View Post
Matt, I don't think Working k9's question warranted such a desultory and flippant response. It was a genuine and valid question. The lines your bitches are from does have a very big bearing on whether they are worth breeding. (don't underestimate this).
I understand this, but is no-one understanding the genetic bottlenecking that is going on? If everyone only breeds from certain lines then this will have SERIOUS consequences on the breed. The percentage of heart disease in Dobermans is shocking. By restricting the genepool even more is a bad move. If a bitch and male that are not carriers of the gene are in existence but don't quite match up to conformation then it would be irresponsible to dismiss them out of hand. Just taking the case of dalmations into considerations, a dog that did not conform to a dalmation (a pointer) was bred in and has the potential to save the breed let alone alleviate suffering.

Objective testing such as bite sports is very much about testing nerve under pressure, and also shouldn't be dismissed lightly. (sure there's issues within it)...but it still had a very valid purpose and can give a good indication which lines have "it" and which lines don't.

I agree and everyone is getting the wrong end of the stick. A title chaser in my mind is someone that dismisses a dog out of hand as any good for work if it does not compete. Competing in shutzhund and such sports is not something that everyone can do. Quite apart from the dog, the owner might be useless at it, the nearest club may be too far away, they may not be able to afford it financially or in terms of time needed. From what I have seen there is not very much real pressure involved in shutzhund, don't mean that offensively either, the dogs are not stupid they know there is no real danger.

If you want to breed to improve the breed...don't breed for the lowest common demonimator of owners (there's already too many who do, and they are not doing the right thing by the breed). A well bred dobe is a handful. It does require an experienced and savy owner. It requires an owner who is 100% commited to being a responsible and engaged owner. Health and temperment are paramount....but the true temperment is a working dog and all that entails.

Right my point of this is to improve the breed health wise you would have to produce an unkown but probably could be calculated number of dogs that would not stand up to conformation, as happened with the dalmations, these dogs need to go somewhere, as was mentioned by ther is a market for these dogs:
VZ "to cater to a market share that don't know what a doberman really is nor for that matter care. They just want something, anything that looks like a dobe no matter how far off the temperament is from doberman, no matter how far off the conformation is from doberman. Dobermans are a working breed, from what you've posted you want to breed the "doberman" out of them."
Quite possibly, and then breed it back in again, that is the only answer to a pressing problem. So what is the answer? To breed and breed the same lines until they are all ruined like pugs,boxers, bulldogs, GSD's, King Charles spaniels and many other breeds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelia_ View Post
I'm on my phone so have to keep it short! PDE and similar writings focus on the bad breeders and don't make any mention on the breeders who are trying to improve the breed, in all aspects including health, without excluding other aspects that make a Dobermann a dobermann.

We do have quite a few breeders in the UK and Ireland who are already working to improve the breed; in conformation, temperament, health, working ability and just overall type. IMO, if you're not willing to invest 100% in the development of all aspects of the breed, you would be much better supporting breeders who are doing this by buying their puppies and educating other people to buy from these breeders, rather than trying to do it yourself without the commitment and the knowledge to complete it properly. You can also help improve the breed health by donating samples and information to research when there are trials, for example for DCM.
Please note this post is badly written and will probably piss someone off that is not my intention so sorry I will be editing it later, but at the moment I have puppy going nuts, two kids whining and a missus kicking off so I have to go for now.
Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
Old 09-03-2012, 11:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
MY BEST FRIEND
 
VZ-Doberman's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,816
Location: Delaware
Dogs Name: Briarwood Back To Basics aka Bacchus
Titles: Yes..........91 titles, awards and certificates and is a service dog.
Dogs Age: 6 Years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit VZ-Doberman's Gallery
Thanks: 8,119
Thanked 14,253 Times in 4,423 Posts
VZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond repute
You don't get it......you will never get it. You are well on your way to be just another byb.
VZ-Doberman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2009
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to VZ-Doberman For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), arankin (10-01-2012), Brandy&Melanie (10-28-2012), Incredibledobe (09-03-2012), nightgrace6 (09-03-2012), OliviaB (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 12:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
Doberman Slave
 
Incredibledobe's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,677

Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Incredibledobe's Gallery
Thanks: 6,772
Thanked 14,141 Times in 2,070 Posts
Images: 3
Incredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond reputeIncredibledobe has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
The fact of the matter is any dog has the potential to be good at these sports some are obviously more predisposed than others.
If you believe this, then you have a LOT more research to do. Simply is not true. And the things that make a dog able to be a good protection dog are the same ones that make a dog a good sport dog. Hence, the fact that titles in the pedigree will tell you a lot about the genetics.

Quote:
I have to start somewhere, and decided to start at health tests, what would be the point in me competing and getting titles only to find the bitch is gonna drop dead in a month because she has a dilated heart? what is the point in me spending time researching their lines if I then go on to find out she has hyperthyroidism or Von Willebrands?
The time to do this would have been before you bought them and decided they might be good breeding bitches.

Quote:
but is no-one understanding the genetic bottlenecking that is going on? If everyone only breeds from certain lines then this will have SERIOUS consequences on the breed. The percentage of heart disease in Dobermans is shocking. By restricting the genepool even more is a bad move. If a bitch and male that are not carriers of the gene are in existence but don't quite match up to conformation then it would be irresponsible to dismiss them out of hand.
Sorry to inform you, but your bitches, no matter what line they are from are a part of this same genepool. If they are Dobermans, then we all share the same small genepool. This is a man made breed and with only so many dogs alive today within it. Who's gonna be your stud dog? Any line you have, I have, anyone has, is eventually gonna get back to the same lines somewhere. A doberman is a doberman is a doberman. Again, you need to do a lot more research.

As someone who does train and title in sport but who also trains in PP, my dogs are still my pets first. What makes you think your bitches are going to produce anything special that can do what my dogs are already doing for me better? What makes your bitches and your breeding decisions produce a better pet than my own dogs are to me already? That is pretty damn arrogant. Talk about Elitest attitudes......
__________________

Lorna & the INCREDIBLE Dobermanns...
2007, 2008, 2010 ADA Siegerin
UDC/ADA CH.Tahi Reme Gloria
CGC, STT, ZTP-V1B, SchH 3, IPO 3
2010 ADA SIEGER, Incredible Courage, CGC,STT,
ZTP-V1A, IPO 3, SchH 3
Jewell iz Gratsiano, BH
Incredible Honor
Incredibledobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2006
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Incredibledobe For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), arankin (10-01-2012), Asmit (09-03-2012), Australdi (09-03-2012), GingerGunlock (09-03-2012), KevinK (09-06-2012), Okie-dobie (09-09-2012), rainddobes (09-12-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012), workingk9s (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 01:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
Alpha
 
workingk9s's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,746
Location: Nor Cal
Dogs Name: Eva, Ija
Titles: Eva - SchH3, IPO3, AWD1, FH1, StPr 1, WAC, CD, RN. Ija - UKC Ch., BH, WAC
Dogs Age: Eva 8/04, Ija 10/2011
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit workingk9s's Gallery
Thanks: 5,877
Thanked 15,157 Times in 3,804 Posts
workingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond reputeworkingk9s has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredibledobe View Post
If you believe this, then you have a LOT more research to do. Simply is not true. And the things that make a dog able to be a good protection dog are the same ones that make a dog a good sport dog. Hence, the fact that titles in the pedigree will tell you a lot about the genetics.



The time to do this would have been before you bought them and decided they might be good breeding bitches.



Sorry to inform you, but your bitches, no matter what line they are from are a part of this same genepool. If they are Dobermans, then we all share the same small genepool. This is a man made breed and with only so many dogs alive today within it. Who's gonna be your stud dog? Any line you have, I have, anyone has, is eventually gonna get back to the same lines somewhere. A doberman is a doberman is a doberman. Again, you need to do a lot more research.

As someone who does train and title in sport but who also trains in PP, my dogs are still my pets first. What makes you think your bitches are going to produce anything special that can do what my dogs are already doing for me better? What makes your bitches and your breeding decisions produce a better pet than my own dogs are to me already? That is pretty damn arrogant. Talk about Elitest attitudes......
This and all of this, but especially the bolded part.

OP, read this thread.
Reputable breeders - for new folks
That is what makes a reputable breeder IMO.

As far as title chasers... hmmmmm, where have I heard that titles don't mean anything and "my dog could do that if I wanted to pursue it"? Oh yea, EVERY BYB OUT THERE!

I actually think there needs to be more reputable breeders out there. Would be nice to be able to point to a nice litter every time I got an inquiry. I DON'T think we need more pets breeding pets.
__________________

Erynn
workingk9s is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Mar 2008
The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to workingk9s For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), Australdi (09-03-2012), Brandy&Melanie (10-28-2012), Coco Loco (09-03-2012), dobedream (09-05-2012), GingerGunlock (09-03-2012), HarvestMoon (09-03-2012), Incredibledobe (09-03-2012), MeadowCat (09-04-2012), Okie-dobie (09-09-2012), OliviaB (09-03-2012), Shelly (09-12-2012), the_discowhore (09-03-2012), tuxedojack (09-27-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 01:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
Alpha
 
MsMoppett's Avatar
 
Posts: 907
Location: New Orleans, LA
Dogs Name: Penelope the cat
Titles: An old lady in a fur coat...

Gallery Pics: 2
Visit MsMoppett's Gallery
Thanks: 1,011
Thanked 1,790 Times in 639 Posts
Images: 2
MsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond reputeMsMoppett has a reputation beyond repute
Before you even start in on this breeding idea, I want to clarify that the wold does not need any more pet-quality dobermans from litters bred solely to create pets or family dogs.

Also, to get the right perspective, you will need a mentor to show you the ins and outs of breeding a quality litter. This takes time. You can't start a successful breeding program off of shoddy lines, or under-researched lines.

It seems, however, that you've already made up your mind that you're qualified to single-handedly and objectively judge the quality of your dogs compared to others to garner them worthy of breeding and producing progeny.

Wouldn't you want someone else to tell you what you have is worthy, as well? Wouldn't you want a large group of objective, knowledgeable people of the breed to say the same? That's what titling does. But then again, according to you, these are pointless. You can be the judge and jury all by yourself, right?

Also, please research the cost (mental and monetary) of breeding a litter the right way. If you are expecting to make money off this enterprise when doing it right, kiss that thought goodbye.
__________________


"Rooooooooooooooooo!"
MsMoppett is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Mar 2011
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MsMoppett For This Useful Post:
Adara (09-03-2012), GingerGunlock (09-03-2012), Matt Vandart (11-11-2012), rainddobes (09-12-2012), RedFawnRising (09-05-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 02:43 PM   #20 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
You don't get it......you will never get it. You are well on your way to be just another byb.
And neither will I until you explain it a bit better rather than posting useless stuff like this statement.
You seem to be an expert, please explain it all to me.
The whole lot.
What a Proper conformation doberman is, what their temperament should be like.
What is the correct physiology of the working doberman, why are each of these physiological points valid to its working ability.
What health tests should be carried out and I don't mean the bare minimum. what should I be looking for in a puppy/dog that will tell me it will be good at PP, schutzhund, french ring blah blah blah...
Why is show conformation so important in the breed, working collies don't seem to have this weight around their neck, or come to think of it any other working breed.
Why should a bitch that is 2" taller than the standard be penalised as a working dog when it puts it into the height standard of a male that makes it a fine working dog.
Why should a Malanois that is almost completely different in terms of build and temperament be good at sports and a doberman of the same build and temperament but obviously not conform to a doberman standard be frowned upon as a working dobe?
Thanks you in advance no one else need bother replying now this guy knows it all and is about to reveal all, thanks for your help everyone but I don't need it anymore now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredibledobe View Post
If you believe this, then you have a LOT more research to do. Simply is not true. And the things that make a dog able to be a good protection dog are the same ones that make a dog a good sport dog. Hence, the fact that titles in the pedigree will tell you a lot about the genetics.

I don't disagree with this at all why would you think otherwise it is logical that a dog with Excellent working pedigree is a better bet. However any dog (within reason) has the potential to be good at these sports maybe not excel but be good. Potential needs to be realised, many potential dogs do no good because of training methods or uslessness of handlers. I have found through training people how to train dogs that most people that own a dog have no clue at all and its getting worse. It's not rocket science.
I do however say that just because a dog hasn't got working titles in it's pedigree by default is not going to be good at working sports. I have seen Mutts that were amazing protection, obedience and agility dogs. No working titles in there I'm sorry to say all mix of Pitty, boxer and unknown lineage.
Not a pedigree in sight



The time to do this would have been before you bought them and decided they might be good breeding bitches.

Absolutely correct, unfortunately I don't have a time meachine, which is why I have started this thread, so you tell me, what should I be looking for? I didn't buy them for breeding but I am not going to just **** them off and buy some new ones if there is nothing wrong with them. Why do so many people think that my bitches won't conform, physically or temperament wise? Do you know something I don't know?
Maybe I don't know what a proper doberman should be like, I am willing to accept this fact, I'm not a pedigree analist .




Sorry to inform you, but your bitches, no matter what line they are from are a part of this same genepool. If they are Dobermans, then we all share the same small genepool. This is a man made breed and with only so many dogs alive today within it. Who's gonna be your stud dog? Any line you have, I have, anyone has, is eventually gonna get back to the same lines somewhere. A doberman is a doberman is a doberman. Again, you need to do a lot more research.
this is incorrect I am perfectly aware of this situation, maybe you have not read or understood my posts properly.

As someone who does train and title in sport but who also trains in PP, my dogs are still my pets first. What makes you think your bitches are going to produce anything special that can do what my dogs are already doing for me better? What makes your bitches and your breeding decisions produce a better pet than my own dogs are to me already? That is pretty damn arrogant. Talk about Elitest attitudes......
This is also a valid point. First of all I don't know who you are or your dogs so how and why would I make any kind of assumption that I could. Secondly at what point did I say I could. Thirdly, if your dogs are great and healthy and amazing at working/sports then clearly you/your breeder are not the sort of breeder I am talking about. I am aiming any derogatory comments at breeders of inbred unhealthy genetic stock, so why get the hump?

If you are the breeder of your dogs how did you start?
If you are not the breeder of your dogs then how did they start?
Did they just wake up one day a breeder of the finest dobermans in the world?
Did they wake up one morning with the bestest dobermans all mature and trained and titled just running around their garden?

What makes you think I can't? Seriously I am interested. I wont take it offensively. I have never failed at anything I have set my mind to in my life maybe this is something I will fail in.


I think many people forget that pedigree dogs are a relatively new phenomenom, working dogs have been around for as long as dogs have been in existence. Humans bred dogs that were good at a job, working dogs for working people, not if they 'conformed' to a standard some victorian era middle class numpties wrote. Also Dobermans are clearly and historically made up of a number of older breeds, why is it the case that introducing a different breed/mix of dog is so frowned upon now yet accepted that it happened to make the doberman breed.
Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
Old 09-03-2012, 03:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMoppett View Post
Before you even start in on this breeding idea, I want to clarify that the wold does not need any more pet-quality dobermans from litters bred solely to create pets or family dogs.

What do you mean? they should all buy high drive machines for their busy modern lifestyles.
What the world doesn't need it more people buying dobermans FOR PETS


Also, to get the right perspective, you will need a mentor to show you the ins and outs of breeding a quality litter. This takes time. You can't start a successful breeding program off of shoddy lines, or under-researched lines.
Can't see that happening anytime soon......

It seems, however, that you've already made up your mind that you're qualified to single-handedly and objectively judge the quality of your dogs compared to others to garner them worthy of breeding and producing progeny.

WTF????

Wouldn't you want someone else to tell you what you have is worthy, as well? Wouldn't you want a large group of objective, knowledgeable people of the breed to say the same? That's what titling does. But then again, according to you, these are pointless. You can be the judge and jury all by yourself, right?

I havn't once in this whole thread said titles are pointless, that is illogical, What I have said is they are not the ONLY valid measure.

Also, please research the cost (mental and monetary) of breeding a litter the right way. If you are expecting to make money off this enterprise when doing it right, kiss that thought goodbye.


This is getting even worse. Have you even read this thread?
THE AIM OF THIS THREAD IS TO FIND OUT THE ABOVE INFORMATION.

On the last point, aaaaaaa no.
I am 38 years of age, I have run MY OWN contract engineering company for the last 12 years and run other peoples before that. I am now semi retired and running my own dog training business, which I started purely because of all the intentional and unintentional abuse I see going on out there to dogs all due to the lack of knowledge and stupidity of the average human being as well as to counter a certain TV show that is singlehandedly responsible for the increase of such dog abuse.
When, In this whole thread did I mention doing this for making money?
Come on I want you to quote it.
I'm not going to just give the dogs away, that is retarded.
By the way by your logic you are saying that ALL professional kennels are running at a loss, or are they doing it for the luuuurve of it?
I am a business person, I am not stupid, there is a reason established breeders arses start twitching when someone else suggests starting up.

If that is too complicated for you to understand then here it is in a nutshell: I am not doing it for money.

Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
Old 09-03-2012, 03:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
MY BEST FRIEND
 
VZ-Doberman's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,816
Location: Delaware
Dogs Name: Briarwood Back To Basics aka Bacchus
Titles: Yes..........91 titles, awards and certificates and is a service dog.
Dogs Age: 6 Years
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit VZ-Doberman's Gallery
Thanks: 8,119
Thanked 14,253 Times in 4,423 Posts
VZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond reputeVZ-Doberman has a reputation beyond repute
And now you aspire to that lowly byb who thinks titles, competition is worthless. Go your merry way and churn out more byb dobes. People here have tried to explain and educate you only to be called names and denigrated. Like I said, you don't get it, you will never get it.
VZ-Doberman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Sep 2009
The Following User Says Thank You to VZ-Doberman For This Useful Post:
OliviaB (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 03:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Adara's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,395
Location: Sacramento, CA
Dogs Name: Flirt Dobe; Gabby Havoc and Envy - Vizslas
Titles: Flirt, OA, NAJ, NF Gabby Ch JH NA OAJ NF NJP - Havoc, GCH, JH OA OAJ , Envy CH, JH, RN, CGC, TDI
Dogs Age: 7, 11, 5, 1.5
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit Adara's Gallery
Thanks: 18,267
Thanked 24,575 Times in 7,200 Posts
Images: 6
Adara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond reputeAdara has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingk9s View Post

I think many people forget that pedigree dogs are a relatively new phenomenom, working dogs have been around for as long as dogs have been in existence. Humans bred dogs that were good at a job, working dogs for working people, not if they 'conformed' to a standard some victorian era middle class numpties wrote. Also Dobermans are clearly and historically made up of a number of older breeds, why is it the case that introducing a different breed/mix of dog is so frowned upon now yet accepted that it happened to make the doberman breed.
Have you read any articles on form following function? If not, it might provide some insight on WHY conformation IS in fact important. A correclty built dog is IMPORTANT to do the job designed for the breed. There is a reason a certain front angle is called for, croup angle, tail set, pasterns, etc.

Form Follows Function

How The Standard Works

I also wanted to add health testing should be done on the PEDIGREE not just the dam and sire. Is the pedigree of your bitches full tested?
__________________
Colleen
Flirt, ADAMAS All the Girls Do It, OA, NAJ, NF, CL2-F, CL2-H
Gabby, Ch Gold Run's Token of Rumor, JH, NA, OAJ, NF, NJP, CL2,CL3-H, CL3-F Vizsla
Havoc, BISS GCh HRQ Guess Who's In Trouble, JH, OA, OAJ, CL2-H, CL2-S, CL2-F Vizsla, National AOM winner
Envy, Ch Kizmar's Bailey HotShot of Adara, Vizsla, JH, RN, CGC, TDI National AOM winner
Adara is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: May 2009
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Adara For This Useful Post:
Australdi (09-03-2012), GingerGunlock (09-03-2012), Matt Vandart (11-11-2012), MeadowCat (09-04-2012), VZ-Doberman (09-03-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 04:00 PM   #24 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
Ah cool more good information.
I shall read that now but for now can I ask a question?
Is conformation referring to the KC standard or some other conformation I do not know about, this may be causing my confusion.
I ask this because I would never use a GSD that 'conforms' to the KC standard for any kind of working if the current batch of 'Champions' is anything to go by.
Which brings me to another point, this KC standard lark, it seems to me it is subject to a weird kind of 'Chinese whispers' over time. I wouldn't bet a penny on a modern bulldog baiting a bull.

@working K9's I shall read that thread also, sorry I havn't yet it's quite mental in my house atm.
Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
The Following User Says Thank You to Matt Vandart For This Useful Post:
cshellenberger (09-06-2012)
Old 09-03-2012, 04:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 918
Location: Tír na nÓg
Dogs Name: Becca, Tilly, Bumpy and LUNA

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Matt Vandart's Gallery
Thanks: 927
Thanked 681 Times in 353 Posts
Matt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Vandart has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
And now you aspire to that lowly byb who thinks titles, competition is worthless. Go your merry way and churn out more byb dobes. People here have tried to explain and educate you only to be called names and denigrated. Like I said, you don't get it, you will never get it.
Some people have tried to explain and educate me for which I have thanked them and taken on board their information, others have just put vague opinions, such as this one above ^^^ even when asked directly for their knowledge.
Also I have categorically stated that titles are not worthless. Good day to you sir.

Last edited by Matt Vandart; 09-03-2012 at 04:17 PM..
Matt Vandart is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2012
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
@2005 - 2008 DobermanTalk.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com