I am still learning and new to all of the letters before a name but, are all the "AM CH" in this Dobermans pedigree American Champions?
And is this the Judge Ray Chrisle everyone is discussing who made a "questionable decision?"
From the Doberman Pincher Club of America website:
Cara's Red Sasha, IPO 3 (owner/breeder Ray Carlisle), wins the IDC World Championship. She is the only Doberman bred on American soil to achieve this feat. During the same year Cara's Top Shelf, SchH3, IPO3, placed fourth in the same competition and won the Italian Doberman Pinscher National. He is also the only American-bred Doberman to accomplish this"
AM CH does mean AKC (American) Champion. And yes, that's the same Ray Carlisle (Cara is his kennel name).
Murreydobe commented way back in the beginning of this thread that being a breeder judge didn't make anyone immune to bad judgement. She went on to say, and I agree, that some of the worst judging she'd seen has taken place at Nationals and was done by breeder judges.
Breeders, like everyone else have preferences. They also have preferences ranked in order of importance to them. Some judges (both breeders judges and all around judges) get so hung up in one fault that the presence or absence can make or break a dog being judged--even though that particular dog might have been the "best" all around example of the standard if he's got "the fault" he's not going to win.
Added to that I've seen dogs who should NEVER win go all the way to a Group 1 from the classes and never win again--much less finish a championship.
Who knows what on earth is going through the minds of the judges in situations like that.
I know of a dog who never finished--even though he had three majors and 21 or 22 points. All the majors were under one judge who thought he was the best thing since sliced bread and ignored the fact that he hackneyed like a min pin when he moved.
That's pretty hard to explain too.
Good judges sometimes make bad decisions and bad judges (who either don't know the breed or think it should be judged on the merits of the handler) occasionally get it right.
I was surprised that Dobies 71 thought that the WD at the National was balanced front and rear. I would disagree and I also disagree with the description of how to tell if a shoulder is well laid back and her contention that the WD was not overangulated. But that's her opinion and is sure isn't mine.
And to whoever it was that was asking many posts ago if overangulation in the rear was an emerging trend--I gotta' say that it's not. There have been overangulated dogs since very early in the breed history. But because underangulation has been a more consistent fault a lot of people who don't know what some of the older dogs way back in pedigrees looked like are shocked when they see pictures of dogs from the 1950's and earlier that were every bit as overangulated as any SA dog you might see today. Find a picture of Ch Rancho Dobe's Cello. He's from the late 50's as I recall--he was shockingly overangulated.
Conformation as defined by the AKC standard hovers around the standard but trends come and go. Just as the end of the 50's and early 60's had a good many huge Dobes--the overall size in the breed still stayed fairly close to what the standard calls for. Fad's come and go but there are enough breeders who breed for standard dogs and not for the current fashion to keep the breed from going hopelessly off course.
By the way--the smoother movement of some of the SA dogs, in my opinion, has very little to do with their angulation but rather to the fact that a good many of them are rectangular (either long in body or long in loin or both), longer than they are tall rather than square.
Always interesting to comment on some of these older threads when they reappear.