Dobies 71

Watched the video again. I like the WD. He is not sickle hocked. Sickled hocked means that the angle beween the hock and the ground is at the sickle angle. This dog is perpendicular. He is a dog of a lot of substance, well muscled out and balanced. (front and back) I think the video does not do him justice.

I thought the judge was going to pick 139 who he had up front. I liked that dog too. However, that dog toed in and sort of side angled when moved. I think that was the deciding factor. The winner's dog moved correct.

Now you all can argue he did not move correct. But a dog built like this moves better than the "American" type you are speaking of. The American dog while being straighter moves more like a terrier. The other type which you all say is incorrect, though that is a bone of contention with some, moves better when given the ground to move. So that type shows at a disadvantage when in a short ring.

So "American" type short moving, SA type longer stride. The difference is in the stride. A longer stride makes a smoother move and more ground covered. This is simple horse knowledge but it applies to all 4 legged creatures. I don't want a terrier moving Doberman.

The difference here is reach and drive. The WD had it and top conditioning. His top line stays together when he moves. This is a hallmark of which is not often seen. Insodently, a dog built like this always has better reach and drive. It is whether or not the dog stays together when it moves and what that top line does when moving.

So see...everybody's got a different opinion on this. Would I breed to him? Probably not. But he was the shinning star that day. He had substance. So you can fault the rear if you please. But what it all boils down to is the overall dog.

The RW dog was nice as well. In splitting hairs, I think it had to do with size between the WD and the RW.

There were many nice dogs out there. I think Ray did a good job and I would show under him. You can never please everybody. But last year's WD was an example of what the "standard" dog looks like. When you say standard, you also mean no pizzaz. That type dog last year is not my type. Time has shown that its not many other judges' type either.

Everybody has an opinon and a taste in this arena. I was not there to see it in person. Nor did any of us have our hands on the dogs. So all can talk all they want. Everybody has an opinon, and from what I can see, this is my opinion.

It will be interesting to see if this WD goes on to Eukanuba and Westminster and see how he goes there. We have to just wait and see.

rafensoda

Again, I'm very new to looking at conformation, but he sure looks sickle hocked to me. I didn't see where they were ever perpendicular to the ground. They also seemed very weak just from looking at them when they were placed. In fact, he looks like he is almost walking on his hocks at some points in the video. I like his front and head, but the rear just looks pieced on. Like it doesn't belong on the dog. I will say I like Trotyl and I know a lot of people think he has too much rear, but this dog just seems over the top in that department.

I respect Ray as he has been in the breed for a long time, but it doesn't have to mean I agree with all his decisions. And obviously he knows a lot more about it than I do. Just voicing my opinion.

VZ-Doberman

I have a couple of questions after reading your post.

Do you feel the rear on the wd was correct according to the akc standard?

Why do you equate no piazz with keeping to the akc standard?

I'm not looking for an argument but merely trying to understand better what you have posted.

melbrod

I always heard that a doberman is built and angulated to gallop, not to trot, and that therefore he does not move at a trot in the show ring as well as some other breeds. Opinions?

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VZ-Doberman

One of the breeds that comes to mind as having good reach and drive is the ger. shepherd. Unfortunately they now do their reach and drive by slapping pasterns and hocks as they gait around the ring.

I believe if the angulation is correct and not extreme one way or the other a dobe can trot smoothly. I certainly wouldn't refer to it as mincing like terriers can move. Coming and going the legs tend to move inward on a dobe. Many working dogs have this type of gait. I think when some of the handlers move their dogs around the ring with their heads pulled high it might interfere with their natural movement. I thought a dobe was supposed to move with his head pushed out to the front and not held high.

Dobies 71

Well let me try and explain angulation:

Front:

Lay back of shoulder which is one of the reasons I believe folks bred to the SA dog. Trotyl is an good example of such. The shoulder should "lay back." The angle of the shoulder should not run straigth up from the elbow. It "lays back." Sort of like this / not like this !. This has been a Doberman fault for some time. This interferes with proper movement. Here's why:

If you attempt to reach forward, but the arm is not able to move forward due to its straigtness it just cannot functionally do so. The reach cannot be there. It (layback) allows the front leg to pull (reach) forward. If the shoulder is straight, the movement is limited to that angle. That's why some Dobermans are forced to move like a terrier since the terrier tends to be straight.

A dead give away for a straight shoulder is that you will always see wrinkles on the top of the withers of a dog built this way.

Now on the rear:

The difinition of sickle hock I think is being confused. A true sickle hock is sort of built like a V. What I'm really trying to do is make the sign used in Math which represents the sign for "greater then" The V arrow is pointing to the right of the number line.

Thus, a sickle hock from the hock to the pastern points inward say under the belly of the animal. A 4 legged animal then covers smaller amount of ground because there is less capability of the leg to cover ground. It will also when forced to move out "clip" the front foot. This is a dead give away. It "oversteps."

So a proper hock is perpendicular to the ground. Then you get drive.

If both the front and rear are "balanced" there is the ability to make less strides to cover same distance and flawless movement. If you were to follow the tracks of a properly built animal, you would find the tracks to be less consuming of beats to cover the distance moved. A poorly constructed animal would have more "beats" to the ground distance. This is important in a working breed because at the end of the day, the properly built animal has spent less energy getting where it needs.

The angulated rears, with angulated fronts thus move out if given proper space to demonstate such. (balance)

You are correct, the Doberman is really a galloping dog. Its choice in movement is really the gallop. But still these angles have a good play in the gallop as well. It would still show in the "beat count."

Hope this helps.

This too is a major factor one looks at when judging a horse as to ground it can cover and its subsquent speed attained. All 4 legged animals are this way. It has to do with the front and back matching. It doesn't matter whether or not a dog, horse, fox etc.

Dobies 71

To clarify what I meant to "standard" dog. I mentioned the standard dog lacked pizzaz. What I like to see is the standard dog which also has elegance. Right now, the bitch that I like who demonstates this is Tuxeto's bitch, Bella. She is a fine example of standard with elegance. Go and look at her pictures where she took WB/BOW at the Regional. She is beautiful. (Show Ring forum)

I think that the elegant dog is what folks are looking for out there combined with the standard. It just looks so much better.

But then you have to watch that when you get elegance you do not give up bone.

Such dilemmas. It really comes down to one's taste. But there are some things that are certainly agreed upon by many.

Axton Dobermanns UK

Overdone chests may look attractive some but I feel are out of balance when considering the overall proportions on many of the animals who have them. The other fault creeping in and coupled with huge chests is straight shoulders. I see many dogs with poor shoulder placement but with a huge chest

Reds

OMG, don't get me started on huge chests LOL! I could not believe some of the dogs/bitches that made the cut in all classes and BOB that had some very strange fronts. I mean some of them you could have placed a glass on the top of their chests and it wouldn't have tipped! Some looked like they had a basketball surgically implanted on their fronts. Yuck!

I will say one positive thing about the judging for WD, WB and BOB, all of the judges really went over the dogs, each and every one. Didn't matter who was handling, each dog was giving it's time. They were looking at the dogs from front, rear, side gate, stacking and down & back, very thorough. I think each entry appeared to get looked at fairly, which to me is important, everyone pays the same entry fee and each entry should get a fair look.

The judge of BOB, William (Bill) Shelton had them lined up in all sorts of interesting patterns that I had not seen before, it was quite the sight to see. Confusing at times, LOL, but very interesting!

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Dobies 71

Insodently, the fox always paces. This is how I tell the difference in the wilderness. It also leaves a "pacing trail." But its angles and movement still stay the same. Reach and drive are always paramount.

Notice the great hunter jumper horses. They have their angles correct (usually) with allows them to make the strides and the jumps to reach, rear to spring.

I have noticed that the Dobermans of which are today considered over angulated in the rear, (which to me is not if they are balanced with the front) can really "spring." And isn't being able to jump up part of what this working dog should be able to do?

I do not see anything in movement in a Doberman like that of a German Shepard. Actually, I think they (GSD) resemble a fox's type movement more than an over done Doberman.

Yes I too agree about the chests. All of a sudden these fads have taken hold. However, I am very upset about this "heavily weight over angulated rears, tail" etc. They should not have taken out one particular thing to weight it such.

The over done chest is just as bad. It should be the total overall dog. So good dogs are being tossed for dogs with just as bad if not worse faults to win over them. That is the travasity.

And, I am a stickler on the shoulders and front. I can't stand those straight shoulders. For as long as this breed has them, its because people don't care. A straight shouldered dog cannot move. I just want a balanced dog.

But few people know what a balanced dog is.

I find it enlightening that the judges took their time and really considered each dog presented to them regardless of who was on the other end of the line. That's a good step toward our breed.

punkischic

thank you, cheryl. it slipped my mind.

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Adara

YES. The Doberman head shouldn't be held or pulled horribly high. Here is Marj moving Flirt. See the head? It's in a normal position (except whenshe gives a slight tug at the turn to prevent pacing).

Not only that WHO can toss and catch a piece of bait and move a dog in a straight line? These handlers amaze me!

046 - YouTube

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HerMewMew

I am still learning and new to all of the letters before a name but, are all the "AM CH" in this Dobermans pedigree American Champions?

And is this the Judge Ray Chrisle everyone is discussing who made a "questionable decision?"

"2005
From the Doberman Pincher Club of America website:
Cara's Red Sasha, IPO 3 (owner/breeder Ray Carlisle), wins the IDC World Championship. She is the only Doberman bred on American soil to achieve this feat. During the same year Cara's Top Shelf, SchH3, IPO3, placed fourth in the same competition and won the Italian Doberman Pinscher National. He is also the only American-bred Doberman to accomplish this"

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dobebug

AM CH does mean AKC (American) Champion. And yes, that's the same Ray Carlisle (Cara is his kennel name).

Murreydobe commented way back in the beginning of this thread that being a breeder judge didn't make anyone immune to bad judgement. She went on to say, and I agree, that some of the worst judging she'd seen has taken place at Nationals and was done by breeder judges.

Breeders, like everyone else have preferences. They also have preferences ranked in order of importance to them. Some judges (both breeders judges and all around judges) get so hung up in one fault that the presence or absence can make or break a dog being judged--even though that particular dog might have been the "best" all around example of the standard if he's got "the fault" he's not going to win.

Added to that I've seen dogs who should NEVER win go all the way to a Group 1 from the classes and never win again--much less finish a championship.

Who knows what on earth is going through the minds of the judges in situations like that.

I know of a dog who never finished--even though he had three majors and 21 or 22 points. All the majors were under one judge who thought he was the best thing since sliced bread and ignored the fact that he hackneyed like a min pin when he moved.

That's pretty hard to explain too.

Good judges sometimes make bad decisions and bad judges (who either don't know the breed or think it should be judged on the merits of the handler) occasionally get it right.

I was surprised that Dobies 71 thought that the WD at the National was balanced front and rear. I would disagree and I also disagree with the description of how to tell if a shoulder is well laid back and her contention that the WD was not overangulated. But that's her opinion and is sure isn't mine.

And to whoever it was that was asking many posts ago if overangulation in the rear was an emerging trend--I gotta' say that it's not. There have been overangulated dogs since very early in the breed history. But because underangulation has been a more consistent fault a lot of people who don't know what some of the older dogs way back in pedigrees looked like are shocked when they see pictures of dogs from the 1950's and earlier that were every bit as overangulated as any SA dog you might see today. Find a picture of Ch Rancho Dobe's Cello. He's from the late 50's as I recall--he was shockingly overangulated.

Conformation as defined by the AKC standard hovers around the standard but trends come and go. Just as the end of the 50's and early 60's had a good many huge Dobes--the overall size in the breed still stayed fairly close to what the standard calls for. Fad's come and go but there are enough breeders who breed for standard dogs and not for the current fashion to keep the breed from going hopelessly off course.

By the way--the smoother movement of some of the SA dogs, in my opinion, has very little to do with their angulation but rather to the fact that a good many of them are rectangular (either long in body or long in loin or both), longer than they are tall rather than square.

Always interesting to comment on some of these older threads when they reappear.

WmRatz

I can SO sympathize with you there. Our Rat Terrier national specialty winners this yr and last, were ringers for tail-less Basenji. Straight front, over angulated rears etc... NOT the picture the standard calls for. Adding insult to injury was the fact that the judge in '10, has written several articles on balance AND breed type, published in books & dog magazines! That just lent more credibility to the person's win, now people are eating her dogs up and paying 3X normal price because they want a piece of that.

Anyway, to stay on-topic (sorta) I was discussing movement and sharing illustrations I made of various dogs and their outlines. Someone in the conversation that I had struck up, mentioned an article that suggests that over-angulation to that degree, can contribute to Hip dysplasia. I don't see how that WD that was pictured, could possibly stay sound for long. The front on him is over angulated, rear is over angulated, the hock angles are just strangeness... I would think such a dog would have a weak loin, after all, look where all the support is! How old is this dog? I do LOVE his head though.

What are judges thinking? Is this a down-the-line kind of mentality beyond just one breed? Favoring the flashy incorrect movement over correctness and balance? I see some big winning Boxers with the same outline, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it's right in that breed either is it?

Grr...

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- 7 Foundations of A Successful Dog Breeder

Sam Erin

I know this is the never-ending thread, but I want to comment on this. From your posts on this thread is sounds like you are uncomfortable with people disagreeing with other people? Weird. I don't know. Discussing opinions about judges decisions is not a negative thing. This is how people learn about standards and trends. I would know absolutely nothing about conformation were it not for the constructive arguments/conversations on this forum- now I know a little more than next to nothing.

No one, of any profession or position, anywhere, should be above scrutiny.

Whoever Ray Carlisle is, I'm sure he is a big boy, and knows that as a conformation judge, some will agree with his decisions and some won't. It's not a big deal. Keep the educational discussions alive, DT!

/sillyrant

RedFawnRising

Oh yeah, I insulted hell out one gal at my last agility trial by complimenting her on her lovely Basenji...who I'd only seen from the front as we passed each other on the way to the exercise area.

I'm sure you're way ahead of me, but yeah, it was supposedly a Rattie.

And, it's not just dog breeds--this has been going on for a long time in horses, and finally has even invaded the dressage world in the last decade or two, which just makes me want to cry.

Humans, egos, kennel and stable blindness. Pffft.

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WmRatz

ROFL!! One particular breeder's dogs flooded our National Specialty ring last year. A person later commented, "It was an interesting thing watching the Basen-- uh, Rat Terrier specialty today..." lol Sadly, the judge, to be consistent gave all the wins to the Ratsenji's. Flashy won out over correct, unfortunately!

It would be nice if people actually looked at their own dogs with a little scrutiny!! I do with a little too much, friends have to talk me into keeping certain ones. It does tick me off that people are breeding to trend and not to standard. I want to find a Doberman breeder whose motto is, "Breeding for the standard of perfection---NOT the fad of the day."

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"The primary reason anyone becomes involved with dog breeding and showing is a fundamental love of dogs. We treasure the companionship, the never failing loyalty, the delight they exude. We love to have them on our beds. Their eagerness to face the new day, even when we wake them up at dreadful hours, provides us a wonderment that brings back the exuberance of childhood."

- 7 Foundations of A Successful Dog Breeder

RedFawnRising

Ratsenji, hehehe.

Yes, he had a lovely head and expression...for a Basenji. Exaggerated forehead wrinkles and all. And the coat was...very sleek. VERY sleek. And light bone, and leggy and, hell, all I could think was "Basenjis look weird, with docked tails!"

Dumb question, and off-topic (well, kinda tangential, I guess) to the thread, but how do they get away with intro'ing all that Basenji blood? Does the parent club not DNA test? Feel free to link me, rather than a long hijack, if there's no short answer, but gah, what a mess.

It's like all the Saddlebred blood put into Morgans back in the day, and hell, even Arabians, esp. some of the halter bloodlines and park horses.

I mean, there would be this high-headed, long-necked, CLEARLY ASB cross come into the ring as a "Morgan," and almost the whole crowd would be like in The Emperor's New Clothes.

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WmRatz

We are in AKC's FSS & stud books are open. Some unscrupulous people have 'jimmied' some registrations when you could single-reg with UKC with a UKCI (puppy mill registry) pedigree. Some have even lied on their multi gen UKC papers... and are sneaking dogs into AKC to legitimize their peds before the stud books close. SICKENING. Right now you can register AKC with pictures & copy of UKC pedigree (must be 3-generation UKC before AKC will let the dog compete in group-once accepted) pics can be fudged or substituted too. :-/

I just updated my sig pic, Bruce is the closest I have to a Basenji look and it's mostly his coloring. He is one dog shy of purple ribbon registration, (14 verified ancestors in UKC) Being a new breed in UKC (1999) and not even in AKC yet, crap like this will happen. I'm not buying into or breeding in that direction... if we have too much of that "look" we may also discover the health problems in the Basenji breed... then we'll have to test for Fanconi (a bleeding disorder) in addition to what GOOD breeders already test for; PLL, LCP, Luxating Patella, Cardiac & Hips. At breeder's discretion it's also a good idea to CERF and BAER. This is a healthy breed, so introducing Basenji health issues would be to our disadvantage. (Sorry for the hijack)

---ETA--- Currently the breed club does NOT require DNA. Considering some of the people trying to get into the AKC w/ dogs like that, IMO, it should be! So should a Heinz 57 test. ;-) ---

Whether Dobermans, Rats or any breed, I just feel that the closer the adherance to the standard; the better off the breed will be. If for health reasons, crossing to other bloodlines or breeds become necessary, it should be a careful and deliberate undertaking, which should include multiple generations of health certified dogs & orchestrated by breeders who really know what they are doing.

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"The primary reason anyone becomes involved with dog breeding and showing is a fundamental love of dogs. We treasure the companionship, the never failing loyalty, the delight they exude. We love to have them on our beds. Their eagerness to face the new day, even when we wake them up at dreadful hours, provides us a wonderment that brings back the exuberance of childhood."

- 7 Foundations of A Successful Dog Breeder

RODOGARDS

Andrea and fernando solers were only, my agents and handlers. Now they have nothing to do with rodogards arg.further of their services were denied and discontinued by me due to their unethical,fraudulent and not so prompt attitude. ...rodogards arg. G- 11 litter was bred by me .the male dobe rodogards arg. Gambler ghost was sold to them,coz i was not happy with the type. There are other better litter sisters and brothers to him.

Why this dog went wd at dpca?..rey decided that way and he has his reasons,he has more experience than some of us. Personally speaking i prefered some other dogs in that ring than to this one ,even though he was bred by me.
Will post some pics of some of the littermates f bart later. Thnx

nightgrace6

Concerning the kennel... a girl in my state has imported a puppy from them, firstly "apparently" it is pretty bad to send a puppy all the way from SA to SA (South Australia). Secondly, I dont love the steroid looking slopey topline dogs they produce. Each to their own and it certainly wins in SA.. not in my books. Will be interesting to see how the dog does in my local show ring WHEN it is finally out of quarantine (which is six months from America to Australia).

Edited: Didn't realise how old this was sorry!

RODOGARDS

Australdi

I think the quarrantine laws here have recently changed...friend's dogs are comming out from the US and only spending 30 odd days in quarantine. (of course SA could still be at the longer time)

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Rouleaux

Cambria has some nice dogs, and IMHO I like their stock a lot.... but I have been learning that some of their studs are used excessively... please keep that in mind. Too much is not always a good thing.

And please use this forum as a resource for YOUR own research. Others will point you in the right direction, but you make the ultimate call. Make it a well thought out one, please.

I had no idea this thread was this old when posting a response.

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