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Old 09-13-2011, 02:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Canis Maximus (VA) - Use Caution

I recently purchased a re-homed dobie from this breeder after reading mixed, but mostly favorable reviews in a sister forum site. The dog was priced at $1,300, shipping included. There was no health guarantee, so I asked that fecal and heartworm tests be performed before I paid for the dog. This was arranged to occur when the breeder, Irina Barrett, took the dog to vet to get her health certificate. I called the vet, ordered the tests, and gave them my credit card number. In the end, the dog needed a rabies shot to be shipped. Ms. Barrett instructed the vet to put the charge on my card, which they did. I received no contact from the vet or Ms. Barrett about the additional cost until I saw the charge come through. I followed through to determine why more was charged to my card than had been quoted and authorized. Turns out Ms. Barrett tried to pass the additional cost to me, thinking that I would not notice or take the time to dispute it. She was wrong. Very telling is her response to me. I found the dollar amount small, but the principle huge. To be fair, I experienced no problems dealing with Ms. Barrett until this issue came to light. I am happy with the dog. I am cut/pasting relevant email exchanges with Ms. Barrett, both before and after my purchase. You be the judge:


From: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@me.com>
Subject: Kira
Date: 2 August 2011 9:26:08 AM PDT
To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>


Hello -

in follow up to my previous email, i've been reminded that animals receive a vet certificate when they are shipped. This being the case, a health check on my end may be redundant for our purposes. I realize that Kira is a rehome and that there is no health guarantee. My only interest is that there be no major health issue when she arrives. I haven't purchased a rehomed dog before, so I would appreciate your suggestions in this regard.

Thanks. Jonarde




From: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kira
Date: 2 August 2011 9:31:15 AM PDT
To: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@me.com>
Reply-To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>

Hi,
I'm on the road right now, and then I will have to walk the dogs and once I'm done Ill get back with you.
Kira is scheduled to go to the vet tonight. If you wish that my vet does some extra tests, let me know which, you can call and pay for those over the phone. I will pay for the exam and health certificate. You have a few hours to think over what u want her checked for.

****

From: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@mac.com>
Subject: Re: vet
Date: 2 August 2011 1:56:40 PM PDT
To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@mac.com>

Thanks. I called the vet and arranged for fecal and heartworm tests. They want a fresh fecal sample, but I realize that this may not be possible. Ok to skip the fecal test if sample not possible and rubber glove method not sufficient.

Jonarde

****


From: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kira
Date: 2 August 2011 3:47:55 PM PDT
To: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@me.com>
Reply-To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>

Heartworm test was negative.
Fecal test - she tested positive for hookworms. I think she came with that since she came to me skinny and I never had hookworms in my dogs. We will treat her and she will be good to go in 5 days.

****

From: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Kira
Date: 1 September 2011 12:11:56 AM PDT
To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>

Hi -

Kira is doing fine.

(Non-relevant portion omitted.)

The biggest issue has been the vet. My credit card was charged more than I authorized. I requested fecal and heartworm tests, but additional charges were put on the card. I have called the vet twice, but no return call. I will call one more time and, if there is no resolution, I will have to contact my bank to have the cost charged back to the vet. I will also file a complaint with the vet licensing board. The amount of money involved is not large, but the business practice of knowingly charging a card more than what was authorized is a serious matter. If you do business with this vet often, it may be something you want to discuss with them.

Thanks for the follow up. Good luck with your breeding.

-Jonarde

****

From: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@mac.com>
Subject: Kira
Date: 12 September 2011 9:24:26 PM PDT
To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>

Hello -

I was able to talk to the bookkeeper at Companion Vet Clinic today to discuss why the charges against my card did not match the estimate I was given for the two tests I authorized. I was told that the girl at the front desk who applied the charges says that you told her to charge me for a Rabies shot. The bookkeeper agreed that only I could authorize charges and agreed to reverse the additional charge. Thankfully, I will not have to ask my bank to process a charge-back to the vet.

I'd appreciate knowing if you agree with the information I was given and, if so, why you asked the vet to charge my card for the shot. As I am sure is true with most people who are willing to spend money on purebred animals, I researched your business before contacting you about a dog. Although there was some negative information, I did not feel that it was legitimate, and there was positive feedback too. I think reputations are important, particularly with the availability of information on the internet. I have had a satisfactory experience with Kira to date, so this situation comes as a disappointment, if true. I look forward to your comment.

Thanks. Jonarde

****

From: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kira
Date: 12 September 2011 9:32:01 PM PDT
To: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@mac.com>
Reply-To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>

Jonarde,
I stated in my email before the vet appointment that I will pay for the health certificate and vet exam only. Since the dog needed to be shipped (that is your request, not mine), the paperwork had to match the requirements set by airlines one of which is a valid rabies vaccination. Her previous owner provided me with one that just expired.
I find it absolutely ridiculous that you are making such a problem out of what is required by law in any state. You have the dog, not me. The dog has to have a valid rabies certificate and you have it. If the dog didn't get the rabies shot, she couldn't have been shipped. Also, you will be able to use the certificate for 3 years. So what's the big deal, I truly don't understand. Now tell me, is $20 really worth all the trouble you've cause the vet clinic?


****

From: Jonarde Raab <jonarde@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Kira
Date: 12 September 2011 10:44:59 PM PDT
To: Irina R. <jugingrand@yahoo.com>

Irina --

I'm disappointed in your explanation, which I find absurd. If the a shot was required to ship the dog, it was your responsibility as shipping was included in the purchase price. If there were any exceptions, it was for you to state so in advance. Had I not ordered the fecal and heartworm tests before deciding to purchase the dog, there would be no issue because my card number would not have been available to charge. And, in any event, the clinic should have resisted your apparent insistence to put an additional charge on my card without proper authorization. I will post our email exchanges on the internet forums and let those searching for a breeder and the public decide for themselves. And, yes, it was worth the effort to prevent you from trying to sneak this through under the apparent assumption that I wouldn't notice or wouldn't make the effort to stop you from succeeding. It matters not whether you try to cut a corner for $1 or $1,000, the principle is the same.

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Old 09-13-2011, 10:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I am not a lawyer, so I cannot address any legal issues in this matter. As for the matter of principle, my opinion is that the legal owner of the dog at the time the RabVax expired was responsible for getting the dog in compliance with their state's laws regarding rabies vaccination.

If this was the previous owner, and the p.o. transferred legal ownership to Ms. Barrett, then Ms. Barrett was responsible. If it was Ms. Barrett, then she was responsible. If it was the buyer, then the buyer was responsible for getting the dog in compliance before shipping and thus was responsible for that cost. In that case, it was entirely appropriate for Ms. Barrett to have the vet vaccinate the dog and have the cost charged to the buyer's account. ETA: and should this be the case, then, IMO, Ms. Barrett ought to have informed the buyer of the additional charge prior to making it as a matter of courtesy.

Was the dog's health & vaccination status disclosed to you at the time of purchase? Was it an "as-is" purchase? I don't know how this would affect any legal claim(s) you may wish to make; I just want to know more about your experience so I can make sure these details are covered if in the future I contemplate buying a re-homed dog from a breeder.

Once again, this is just my opinion, and not a legal determination of finding.

Could this matter have been settled with less acrimony? Probably, but it is certainly a shame that a matter that could have been settled somewhat civilly has morphed into counter-accusations, hard feelings and resentment.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Enjoy your new DoberPal and please stay with this forum. Oh, and pix! We must have pix of your new girl!

Last edited by KenyaARaineCD; 09-13-2011 at 10:21 AM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
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regardless if there was a health guarantee or not, under Virginia Code of Law:

"Seller shall provide all dogs with current vaccinations against contagious and infectious diseases, as recommended in writing and considered appropriate for the animal's age and breed by a licensed veterinarian, or pursuant to written recommendations provided by the manufacturer of such vaccines at least five days before any new owner takes possession of the animal. For dogs, the vaccinations required by this subsection shall include at a minimum canine distemper, adenovirus type II parainfluenza, and parvovirus. Seller shall provide the new owner with the dog's or cat's immunization history".

source: Virginia Consolidated Dog Laws
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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So she is charging $1,300 for a rehomed dog that she has already sold and profited off of once before?! Wow.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoodleDobe View Post
So she is charging $1,300 for a rehomed dog that she has already sold and profited off of once before?! Wow.
keep in mind shipping was included in the price. A few years ago I shipped a 40 lb Vizsla in a 400 crate and it was $350. I'd imagine it's more to ship a Doberman.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Is it really necessary to hash this out on a public forum and post private email exchanges? I think this is a huge overreaction and should have been settled in private.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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So let me get this straight, you went to a breeder/ broker who has a questionable reputation and you are upset because you didn't get what you thought was the deal that was made- just another reason to stick with a reputable breeder. In her 1st email it did state that shipping and exam were included and nothing else so I don't see where you would have "a leg to stand on" so to speak. Sorry, I'm having a hard time feeling bad for your situation, just look after your dog and love her. The vets office should know better than to charge a credit card without authorization...shame on them but at least they reversed the charges.
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thea2003 View Post
So let me get this straight, you went to a breeder/ broker who has a questionable reputation and you are upset because you didn't get what you thought was the deal that was made- just another reason to stick with a reputable breeder. In her 1st email it did state that shipping and exam were included and nothing else so I don't see where you would have "a leg to stand on" so to speak. Sorry, I'm having a hard time feeling bad for your situation, just look after your dog and love her. The vets office should know better than to charge a credit card without authorization...shame on them but at least they reversed the charges.
I have to agree here.
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I do think as well that the emails should NOT have been posted on a public forum. This should have been settled in private since it was not something that was truely outragous.

I do think that the breeder would have to have the Rabies shot done before leaving as she is selling the dog and required for shipping. That makes sence.

I believe these forums can be a tool and something that ruins otherwise good people. So I just do not feel it was right to post the emails here or anywhere on the net besides to your lawyer if you feel like going that way. I feel you are making this out to be much worse than it should be and causing the breeder possible undue harm to her kennel. If you did not like what she did, it may have been a good idea to just pick a different breeder...

Just sounds like you are trying to make her look like she did something unforgivable and you want the support of that thought.

Thats my .2
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think this is pretty ridiculous to be considered a true indication of a breeder's worthiness. If I were the breeder, yes, I would've called when I became aware that the dog was due for a required vaccine. I would've asked if you wanted this charged to you, or if you wanted it to go on my bill. However, I would've raised her purchase price $20 so you would be paying for it anyway. Yes, it should've been authorized and discussed by the breeder, and the vet office, but seriously, this is a little over the top IMO.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I would think that in order to obtain a Health Certificate for the purpose of shipping, all required inoculations should be in place. So if, the seller was responsible for the Health Certificate, then a rabies shot is her responsiblity unless prearranged. And honestly, inoculations are essentially maintenance, just like fecal exams, HeartWorm preventative, etc. I also feel any charge made to a person's CC should only be authorized by the owner of the card! What if the seller had decided to have additional procedures done? should it have been charged without authorization? Aren't shipping requirements always handled on the seller's side?

Last edited by widdam; 09-16-2011 at 03:42 AM.. Reason: sp
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This is why I couldnt' be a breeder. Shipping is not cheap and you have to pay the cost in order to ship. If that means rabies and health cert the buyer is responsible. Maybe the vet should have called an informed you but other than that I think the breeder is in the right. I think the problem is that people just expect you to give you things when in actuality the individual doesn't owe you anything. You are getting the best end of the deal by receiving an awesome dog. I don't understand the stigma for purchasing a "re-homed" dog either to me its the same as if you went to a rescue and purchased one of their "re-homed" dogs except in this case you know the bloodline, breeder and longevity history. You got it made so if $20 is going to make or break you maybe a buyer you should reconsider obtaining a pooch.
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:15 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The person buying the dog is responsible for the cost of shipping. Anything needed up to shipping point is the responsibility of the seller. The new owner should receive a healthy fully vaccinated dog. The dog has to have a rabies vaccination to ship, so that is the shippers cost. I would question a breeder who tried to slyly get out of that small of a cost and wonder what other corners they were cutting.
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Old 12-15-2011, 05:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorellallen View Post
This is why I couldnt' be a breeder. Shipping is not cheap and you have to pay the cost in order to ship. If that means rabies and health cert the buyer is responsible. Maybe the vet should have called an informed you but other than that I think the breeder is in the right. I think the problem is that people just expect you to give you things when in actuality the individual doesn't owe you anything. You are getting the best end of the deal by receiving an awesome dog. I don't understand the stigma for purchasing a "re-homed" dog either to me its the same as if you went to a rescue and purchased one of their "re-homed" dogs except in this case you know the bloodline, breeder and longevity history. You got it made so if $20 is going to make or break you maybe a buyer you should reconsider obtaining a pooch.
I do not think the cost was the issue. I think from what I have been reading it is the ethics of the charge to the CC regardless of the amount. The breeder was not authorized to add charges to the CC so it should not have happened regardless of who was responsible for the rabies vaccine. A call should have been made to the OP if more charges were needed.
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RedFawnRising (12-15-2011)
Old 12-15-2011, 07:04 AM   #15 (permalink)
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This is why I have always preferred dealing with breeders within my geographical region. Anyone can be your best friend over the phone.


Glad you called the breeder out on it. And I hope your enjoying your new addition
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