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Old 09-11-2011, 12:09 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Bitches who eat their own puppies

I have bred dogs in the past, but my current bitch who has never been bred is a bunny, shrew, and tiny mole eater. Ya'll may think this is weird.....but I'm worried if she likes to eat small (dobe new born sized critters) she may eat her pups when she has them.
Anyone have any feedback. I'd greatly appreciate it.
If anyone has any experience with their bitches eating their pups, why do you think they did so. What was the temperament of the bitch before she had pups??
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:45 AM   #2 (permalink)
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No personal experience, but from having been on the Canine Repro list for quite a while I would suspect that a bitch who would do this is likely suffering from low calcium/eclampsia, and that this behavior would have a physiological basis. Eclampsia is usually first noted as growling at pups and, if not treated immediately, can rapidly progress to aggression and killing/eating pups.

My girl is kinda squirrely. I briefly thought about breeding her, but decided I didn't need to reproduce her temperament. While I was still contemplating, though, I asked my vet (who is a repro specialist) pretty much the same question you've asked here... his response was that prey drive would not have any influence on maternal instinct.

I do think that it is possible for bitches to lack any sort of maternal instinct and to harm/kill/eat puppies for this reason. I think lack of maternal instinct would also be independant of prey drive. I would guess that this could very easily have a genetic componant, and I do not think a bitch who does this should be bred again.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I suggest that this is the last time you breed your bitch or any future dog/bitch. Just get her fixed after she has had the pups.

Your puppies should go to a rescue when they are ready.
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Wow! thank you mmctaq. That makes total sense that prey drive is different than maternal instincts. This bitch is VERY maternal around other puppies.
Much Appreciated feedback
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:02 AM   #5 (permalink)
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There was a bitch in rescue in my area that ate her last litter of pups. She was 5 years old and had lived her whole life in a puppy mill. It was suspected she ate them due to her horrific living conditions (ie: living her whole life in a very small cage and being bred to death) and stress level. Needless to say she was dumped by the puppy miller and has now been spayed and adopted into a lovely new forever home.

My girl is spayed and I know nothing of breeding but if I was concerned that she would not do well maternally I would not have a litter. This is just my own opinion and again know nothing of the complexities of breeding
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Reznik View Post
I suggest that this is the last time you breed your bitch or any future dog/bitch. Just get her fixed after she has had the pups.

Your puppies should go to a rescue when they are ready.
I don't understand why you wrote this. Could you explain?
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:48 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mmctaq View Post
I don't understand why you wrote this. Could you explain?
Probably because the Poster is a typical back yard breeder... So instead of placing the puppies intact on full registration, give them to the rescue that will neuter them and place them in good homes.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Probably because the Poster is a typical back yard breeder... So instead of placing the puppies intact on full registration, give them to the rescue that will neuter them and place them in good homes.
Oh. I wasn't aware of that, since there seems to have been only these two posts by this person, and there doesn't seem to be enough information here to make any kind of assumptions.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:11 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mmctaq View Post
Oh. I wasn't aware of that, since there seems to have been only these two posts by this person, and there doesn't seem to be enough information here to make any kind of assumptions.
Do you think a reputable breeder would ask a forum first? A random group of people? I would think the first stop would be the breed mentor, a vet, the local club... Not some random people...
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:31 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Probably because the Poster is a typical back yard breeder... So instead of placing the puppies intact on full registration, give them to the rescue that will neuter them and place them in good homes.
Very likely could be a BYB, but I wouldn't say completely typical if they came for some advice. Of course there is a good chance they might say "whatever I'm going to do what I want anyway" but there are also some people that don't know better and do learn from being educated about what they shouldn't be doing. While there are plenty scum of the earth BYB totally out to make a buck, there are also people that just don't know about why it's so bad. I'm not saying they should be doing it..just saying there is a difference between being scum and being ignorant.

In regards to the question about eating young it can actually be because of maternal instinct and knowing something isn't right. Sounds harsh, but if there s something wrong with a litter or the situation, it's better biologically speaking to get rid of them so she can be ready to raise a new litter if the situation improves. Also, while it's not exactly the norm, it's also not that unheard of for animals to have problems with their first experience as a mother. Whether it be actually killing their young or not taking proper care of them, sometimes the first time through they don't do it right. As already mentioned there is also a big difference between prey drive and maternal instinct. I'm not exactly sure of your situation and what makes you think this bitch should be bred in the first place but if you are worried about it and haven't bred her yet then don't do it.

Last edited by Tater927; 09-11-2011 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Do you think a reputable breeder would ask a forum first? A random group of people? I would think the first stop would be the breed mentor, a vet, the local club... Not some random people...
From what was posted, I wasn't able to ascertain that this forum was the first place this person asked this question. I suspect that not many folks have experience with the type of behavior about which the question was asked (breeders, vets or club members); had I had a question of this sort, I could see the logic of directing it toward as large a number of people as possible.

To respond to this single question with the suggestion that the person asking the question should not breed and should give a litter of puppies to rescue just seems a little presumptive, to me.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:46 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Hey if the person isn't a BYB great, but I'm not gonna hold my breath...
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater927 View Post
just saying there is a difference between being scum and being ignorant.
Someone posts a single question here, and gets the choice of being "scum" or being "ignorant"???
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmctaq View Post
From what was posted, I wasn't able to ascertain that this forum was the first place this person asked this question. I suspect that not many folks have experience with the type of behavior about which the question was asked (breeders, vets or club members); had I had a question of this sort, I could see the logic of directing it toward as large a number of people as possible.

To respond to this single question with the suggestion that the person asking the question should not breed and should give a litter of puppies to rescue just seems a little presumptive, to me.
Presumptive? Perhaps. But Reznik's response was the first thing that ran through my head too. No, we can't know for sure that the OP is a BYB but I would think that reputable breeders would either A) ask their trusted vet(s) and friends in the breeding/doberman community instead of a group of people they don't know (nor does the OP have any idea of how knowledgeable we are) or B) not ever consider breeding a bitch that they had any concern about. Especially B.

That being said, I hope that testing is done on the bitch. Both health testing and temperament testing.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:53 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Someone posts a single question here, and gets the choice of being "scum" or being "ignorant"???
You know, I do think sometimes people give you a bit of grief for having a different opinion but you also can be a bit of an instigator. Yes, those are the two words I personally think fit the situation. I do think that someone that is truly educated when it comes to breeding would have more knowledge about this subject.So at the very least, if you want to get technical, this person is already ignorant by asking this question seeing as the definition is "lack of knowledge". If it is someone that is a BYB in terms of not caring about anything other than making a buck, yes they are scum to me. If they are someone that is breeding without a full understanding of what they are doing that is indeed ignorance. I could understand your reaction if I called them stupid, however, that is not the case. In reality, ignorance isn't an insult and wasn't being used that way so simmer down a bit.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:58 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Why do people take the the word ignorant so harshly:

1. Lacking knowledge or awareness in general;
2. Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular

So yes, this person is ignorant about her dog possibly eating puppies...
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:18 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Do not breed her because there are way too many Doberman waiting in shelters to get into a forever home.

as to why a bitch may kill and or eat her puppies..........there are quite a few reasons why this may happen.
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
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All my dobermans like to get the (bugs) as we call them. From flies to mice squirrels birds fish ect. All my dogs do to get the "bugs" And all my dogs LOVE puppies kittens anything BABY as long as they our in our home. Yes they know the difference.
A bitch knows if there is something wrong with her young.
SO I have seen Bitches push them away from the rest of the litter, Snap at that one pup and even eat young.
There are even bitches that should not be mothers that DO NOT like her own puppies. Bitches you cannot trust with their own offspring.
Just like some humans should not be mothers or trusted with their children not all bitches should be.
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:58 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy'sMom View Post
Probably because the Poster is a typical back yard breeder... So instead of placing the puppies intact on full registration, give them to the rescue that will neuter them and place them in good homes.
Yeah, I think there are questions asked on here now and then that to me fall under the category of "if you have to ask, you shouldn't be breeding" this is one of them.
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:31 PM   #20 (permalink)
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From what was posted, I wasn't able to ascertain that this forum was the first place this person asked this question. I suspect that not many folks have experience with the type of behavior about which the question was asked (breeders, vets or club members); had I had a question of this sort, I could see the logic of directing it toward as large a number of people as possible.

To respond to this single question with the suggestion that the person asking the question should not breed and should give a litter of puppies to rescue just seems a little presumptive, to me.

Yes, I am new to breeding my own personal dog. But not a BYB. I have experience with whelping many other CH. health tested dobes. My bitch is 4yrs old, a CDN Ch, with a U.S. WAE and CGC title. She is a therapy dog in a children's hospital visiting sick kids. She's been neg on 2 cardiac ultrasounds, 2 holters, hips ofa=good elbows=good eyes=certified . All AM/CDN,Arg Ch stock behind her. mmctaq is right in that my logic for asking this question to a large group was so I could gather as much information from a LARGE audience as possible. Just gathering info on other folks experiences and knowledge. Breeding is a huge undertaking and I want to learn as much as possible.
Thank you much for all the positive informative feedback.
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:56 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I think overall it is really pretty rare for bitches even with high prey to eat their young.

BTW, most of the time we get BYB here who cannot even be bothered to take their pets to the vet for basic needs. It is quite refreshing to see someone who is health testing and titling come here.

Welcome.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think overall it is really pretty rare for bitches even with high prey to eat their young.

BTW, most of the time we get BYB here who cannot even be bothered to take their pets to the vet for basic needs. It is quite refreshing to see someone who is health testing and titling come here.

Welcome.
Thank you workingk9s. I thought it was pretty rare too unless maybe the pup was not going to thrive and the mom might "get rid of it". My bitch has intense Prey drive that's for sure...so being a first time going to breed my I'm trying to learn as much as possible. (She loves schutz classes too)
Oh and I forgot to post she is neg on the Dr Meurs dcm gene!
Thanks again all. And thanks for the Welcome workingk9.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:46 PM   #23 (permalink)
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A Question

I have to ask a question because I'm stupid...What's a CDN Championship?

Also, what is the registared name of your bitch. I'd like to look her up. That would help me understand more.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:47 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I really like this book with regards to breeding.

Amazon.com: Canine Reproduction: The Breeder's Guide (0697987902863): Phyllis A. Holst: Books

Also, if you have someone that is close that can help mentor you through the process it might be a load off your mind.
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:48 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobies 71 View Post
I have to ask a question because I'm stupid...What's a CDN Championship?

Also, what is the registared name of your bitch. I'd like to look her up. That would help me understand more.
Canadian championship.
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