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Old 07-11-2011, 02:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Can anyone tell me something about HOYTT Dobermans in Tennessee?

Hi
I came across the following website:

House of Hoytt

and wanted to hear what you think about it.
His dogs look great and he seems to do extensive health testing.

Thanks in advance for your comments
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landikon View Post
Hi
I came across the following website:

House of Hoytt

and wanted to hear what you think about it.
His dogs look great and he seems to do extensive health testing.

Thanks in advance for your comments
use the search feature and you will find several threads about Hoytt, none of them are good.
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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hi
i just tried but nothing came up.
what isn't 'so good' about this breeder?
thanks
jennifer
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landikon View Post
Hi
I came across the following website:

House of Hoytt

and wanted to hear what you think about it.
His dogs look great and he seems to do extensive health testing.

Thanks in advance for your comments
Extensive health testing? LOL I seriously doubt that!

Make sure you read your "agreement" as well. Any refunds or guarantees require you to return the dog to them....ears standing and unaltered most likely.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Welcome to the Forum! Thank you for doing your due diligence and researching breeders before you get a Dobe.

I got involved in Dobermans (rescue, adoption, obedience competitions) long before there was a "DobermanTalk" forum; my point being that my information comes from communication with actual owners of Hoytt-bred Dobes and not just anonymous comments posted on the Internet.

Amended statement: My experience has been that those people who are satisfied with the dogs they purchase from Mr. Hoytt state that he is attentive, responsive and available to consult about their dogs.

Amended statement: My experience has been that those people who are dissatisfied with the dogs they purchase from Mr. Hoytt state that he is inattentive, non-responsive and unavailable to consult.

My advice is that you contact those Doberman rescue groups who have rescued dogs of Mr. Hoytt's breeding. They can tell you about their experiences with asking Mr. Hoytt to abide by the breeder's code of ethics and assist those of his dogs that came into rescue. After that, I believe you will be in a better position to decide whether Mr. Hoytt is breeding for the betterment of the Doberman breed or not.

Some previous threads on House of Hoytt ("HoH"):
House of Hoytt-Again
What's wrong with Hoytt?
House of Hoytt

Best wishes for a successful DoberSearch.

Last edited by KenyaARaineCD; 07-11-2011 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: typos; clarity
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
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haha I'm pretty sure that we can tell you a lot about Mr. Hoytt here.

I definitely suggest reading the threads that have been posted above and DEFINITELY call nearby Doberman rescues as they do get his dogs quite often, I hear. With any breeder there will be some good stories and some bad stories. However, the bad stories about this guy are REALLY bad.

Good luck and stick around :]
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
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i contacted mr. hoytt to talk about his dogs.

he called me (to switzerland) and spoke to me for almost 2 hours about his dogs. he seems to be very dedicated with his line of breeding and even mentioned that he would sell me a puppy with a tail and natural ears (here in switzerland docking and cropping is illegal - therefore the reason for wanting a natural dog).

i was very impressed when he said that if the puppy turns out not to be the right dog for me in temperament ( i want to train it as a therapy dog) that he would keep it and would get me the right dog.
he would have to leave one puppy with a tail and the rest he would have to have docked at 3 days old - therefore he is taking a risk at what the puppy's temperament would be like.

he believes in LINE BREEDING, which i still have to do some research about.

i also still have to digest the price.

i have yet had a breeder to call me oversees and talk to me for so long about their dogs and health etc. - just thought that was great.

i don't quite understand why there are so many rescues from him? and where?

thanks in advance for your answers
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:10 AM   #8 (permalink)
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terrible breeders.. SERIOUSLY, take the advice from your other thread about the wonderful UK breeders..
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenyaARaineCD View Post

Some previous threads on House of Hoytt ("HoH"):
House of Hoytt-Again
What's wrong with Hoytt?
House of Hoytt

Best wishes for a successful DoberSearch.
thanks for the threads.......
i don't know what to think..., reading the comments from previous owners of HOH dogs and having them die at a young age due to DCM was heart breaking. mr hoytt told me 'he does not test for this since it doesn't occur in his dogs'. he also 'doesn't test for villebrands either because his dogs are linebred and don't have this'. i had to stop reading because i couldn't believe how ongoing the complaints against him were. the comments from people that have owned his dogs and lost them made the biggest impression on me.
the temperaments of his dogs sound super, but i must admit that my dog's health is of utmost importance to me and i think that i will go with someone that tests for everything.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:24 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Did you contact Aritaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casandra View Post
Aritaur breed both German Pinschers and Dobermanns au naturale. They do all of the health testing on their dogs that you are likely to see with reputable breeders in the USA, and they are also pretty great judges of character and what you want/need in a dog imho. They have the experience as breeders. They send puppies to other countries, one went to the USA for one of their litters in the past year.

I think the UK has what you want, you just need to be patient and get to know a decent breeder. There are a bunch of dobes in the UK doing therapy work.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I have been very busy contacting breeders..., including Aritaur. I had no idea there were SO MANY breeders out there!

This makes my search even more difficult - but at least I see that there are some good Breeders in the UK and that is A LOT closer to where I live!


I still have time and am still in the 'Homework' phase.

I have been able to sift out a few though which is good.

I am getting the 'Dobermann Fever'!!!
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:59 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
mr hoytt told me 'he does not test for this since it doesn't occur in his dogs'
Biggest BS statement of the year, and reason enough to run far far away from this con man.
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landikon View Post
i don't quite understand why there are so many rescues from [Hoh]? and where?

thanks in advance for your answers
I am so glad you found the threads I linked to useful in your research. Most of the rescue groups I referred to are in the USA, but I do know of a few HoH Dobes that ended up in Caribbean rescues or unloaded onto unsuspecting new owners.

My apologies to you in that I neglected to check out where you are located. Since you are in Switzerland, I second the recommendation to check out breeders in the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

Last edited by KenyaARaineCD; 07-14-2011 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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landikon, major props to you for doing diligent research on breeders. I'm sure you are frustrated, but you WILL find the doberman for you! And you will never regret valuing temperament and health in your dog above all else.
Hang in there!
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenyaARaineCD View Post
I am so glad you found the threads I linked to useful in your research. Most of the rescue groups I referred to are in the USA, but I do know of a few HoH Dobes that ended up in Caribbean rescues or unloaded onto unsuspecting new owners.

My apologies to you in that I neglected to check out where you are located. Since you are in Switzerland, I second the recommendation to check out breeders in the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
i can't even tell you how much i would love to adopt a dobe, but considering the import laws here with docking/cropping, where i work (i take my dogs to work and need to train my future dog to get used to being around many people) and that i want to use my future dog as a therapy dog on the side, ... it really is difficult to adopt a dog that fits all the above criteria.

i go through all the various dobe rescue sites and my heart bleeds when i see these dobes needing homes. i would LOVE to be able to adopt one.
my boyfriend and i are still not giving up hope on winning the lottery
our plan is to have a dobe sanctuary in the states.... no more laws etc!!!
dreams are free right?!!!
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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It's tough for me to read threads like this. I own a Hoytt doberman, both of whose parents tested negative for both DCM genes and for Von Willebrands. Both parents were tested by Barrie Hoytt. He does health testing, and I'm not sure where the rumor started that he doesn't. His dogs are expensive. I'm not debating that, and won't. But there is a lot of trash thrown around about him and his dogs, and it just doesn't make a lot of sense. It's mostly being thrown around by people who haven't met him or his dogs personally, and who haven't been out to his facility. He just had another dog reach the DPCA top twenty in obedience. And this is not the first. He won't step foot in a breed ring, and think that pisses a lot of people off. I'm not saying my Hoytt dog would win in the breed ring. He has some physical faults that prevent that. But I didn't want a show dog. I wanted a family dog with the potential to compete in future in obedience and agility. I didn't want a cast-off from a show breeder, because his tail was set too low, or whatever.

As for his dogs dropping dead from DCM? Not much and not recently. Name me a breeder or lifelong doberman owner who has not encountered DCM. I know a lot of you are breeders, who do all the testing in the world, and you've had dogs with DCM. I agree with testing, but DCM is something that is still being researched, and often doesn't show up until later in life. Until much later, after the dog has already been bred. Barrie, like most breeders, eliminates any dog showing health issues, from his breeding program immediately. Now that there is testing for DCM, affected dogs never become breeders. Period. But if you look at it, is that really foolproof? For any of you? In humans, there are something like 27 genes that are related to DCM. You have to extrapolate that for dogs, there must be more than two out there. So are you doing anything more than Barrie is? He's testing for the two known genes, just like you are.

Hoytt dogs in rescue? Hmm. Well, Barrie went on another Dobe forum a few years back, and offered $500 for each Hoytt dog whose name and/or tattoo number they could provide that went through a rescue. He also offered to drive personally to wherever it was, and pick up the dog, and donate that $500 to said rescue. He has tattoos on each dog that leaves his kennel. And did you know that not one single person could provide that information? Out of the several people (mostly other breeders) who were flaming him, not one single person could provide solid evidence of a Hoytt dog in rescue. I'm not saying it's never happened (it's never happened, to Barrie's knowledge) or that it will never happen, but I can say that it's not something that happens the way people would lead you to believe. How many of you have been heartbroken to discover that one of your beloved line is rotting in a rescue? Just a while back, I was reading a thread about one of you discovering a well-known bitch in rescue. I also read about a very well-known bitch that is now at Family Dobes, God forbid. Despite your best efforts, once a dog leaves your kennel, contract or not, you don't always have control over what happens to that dog later on down the line. You just have to screen potential owners (which Barrie absolutely does) and hope you've judged correctly.

I've seen so many, SO MANY dobes on this site that are dropping like flies from DCM, cancer, Von Willebrands, etc.. Not all of them are from BYBs, you know. I've been to several of your websites. You, too, lose dogs from these diseases. Many of you are actively breeding known carriers of Von Willebrands. Why, exactly?

I just don't understand what the true issue is that most of you have with Mr. Hoytt. Yes, he breeds a lot of dogs. Yes, they're expensive. But they're healthy, well-bred, active and successful in the obedience ring, they're great family pets, and none of them are raised in a commercial kennel environment. I've been to his place. I know from first hand experience. I'm not just parroting "what I've heard".

I'd really love for someone to give me concrete examples of Hoytt dogs that they know personally, and/or dissatisfied Hoytt clients. If any of you has owned a Hoytt doberman, and was dissatisfied, please, contact me. I would LOVE names. Both of the dogs and the owners. You have to have HEARD this stuff from someone. Why not tell me who? So much of this is completely made up, by people who for some reason just hate the man and his dogs. I know a lot of you are breeders. I won't insult you by saying you're jealous. That's obviously not the case. I'm guessing you wouldn't touch his dogs with a ten foot pole. That's fine. But what's the true issue? His dogs are healthy and health-tested. His dogs compete and prove themselves continuously. His dogs serve as loving family companions and protectors. How is that different from your dogs? He breeds on a larger scale, and he shuns the conformation ring. Is that what really pisses you off? I'd be more worried about the large-scale breeders whose dogs rip kids' faces off, personally.

And before you say it, no, I'm not a troll. I've been on here for quite a while now, as a member, and lurking before that. And yes, I read all of the posts on House of Hoytt before deciding for myself. For the most part, I try to keep my mouth shut about HoH, because I know what happens every single time. It's like piranha, and I know what's coming for me, probably within minutes of posting this. But sometimes you have to stick up for what you believe in. Is Barrie Hoytt breeding the world's best dog? No, that's subjective and there is no such thing. None of you are breeding perfect dobes, either. Is Barry Hoytt breeding dogs that are expensive? Yep. Very much so. But if you can afford it, and it's what you're looking for, what's wrong with that exactly? Call me a sucker for paying that much for a dog. Doesn't really bother me, or most Hoytt owners you'll find. Is Barrie Hoytt breeding dogs that are healthy, sound of body, mind and temperament? That's an absolute yes. And if you disagree, again, tell me which dog you're talking about, and give me some proof. There are so many people out there making up goofy stories about Hoytt dogs, it's almost laughable.

Like I said, I know what's coming for me, for having posted this. If you truly believe in every negative thing you've heard about Hoytt dobes, I hope it's because you researched it and found it to be true. Otherwise, you're just repeating things you've heard, which doesn't show a lot of initiative. And again, I would love to see the research and proof. Prove me wrong. I'm humble, and if that's what happens, I'll come on here and eat crow, in front of all the people who disagree with me. But I have a feeling that nobody will be able to come up with anything substantial, and will instead start flaming me with all kinds of comments that have no backing. I love my dog, I'm happy with him, I trust him with my kids, I continuously get fantastic compliments on him from everyone we encounter. My vet loves him, my trainer loves him, my family loves him. Even the ones who professed to be afraid of the breed before meeting him.

Please, everyone. If you're going to say awful things about other breeders, PLEASE make sure you can back it up. Otherwise, it just makes you look ignorant.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
I've seen so many, SO MANY dobes on this site that are dropping like flies from DCM, cancer, Von Willebrands, etc..
I'm ignoring all your Hoytt stuff as that's already been discussed ad nauseam. However, I would like to know where exactly the "SO MANY" dobermans dropping like flies from vwd on this forum are?
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:12 PM   #18 (permalink)
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DDD, how many litters does Hoytt breed a year?
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:28 PM   #19 (permalink)
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tnh317, I said dropping like flies from DCM, cancer and vwd. I was making a point. And there are plenty dropping from DCM, from all sorts of breeders, both BYB and ethical. In past Hoytt flames, a big focus has been on his dogs dying of DCM, which is why I brought it up. It's something that affects the breed across the board, even for the most ethical and conscientious of breeders. So to pick on HoH for that disease is rather unwarranted, unless you want to pick on everyone else at the same time. There are also a few Hoytt dogs I read of that died of cancer of various sorts. Again, I've been on a lot of DT's breeders' websites, and tragically, see some of their most beloved dogs (show champions and breeders) with a caption that says "sadly lost at age 4 to cancer", "sadly lost at age 6 to cancer", etc.. I could go on and on. It's a difficult breed to breed, and I won't slam other breeders for losing some dogs to some of the more common diseases. It's tragic, and I can only imagine their pain in losing their dogs so young. But it seems to be something that other people like to pick on when it comes to HoH. I hate that people are losing their dobes. But it's not exclusive to Hoytt dobes. That was my point. I recently lost two dogs to cancer, a mixed breed and a Brussels Griffon. I also lost my mother-in-law, my grandfather, my dog trainer, and I damn near lost my husband (still waiting for that shoe to drop one day). So not only is it not just dobermans, it's not just dogs. Cancer rates have sky-rocketed in this generation's lifetime. But I truly understand that if a doberman owner loses a dog to cancer, or DCM, their first instinct is to be pissed at someone. And it's easy to be pissed at the breeder, especially if it's happened more than once. As for the vwd, dobes bleed out during routine surgeries. Perhaps not specifically on DT. Sorry if that was an over-statement on my part. Again, I was making a point.

ZeldaRules, I don't know how many litters Barrie breeds each year. There is often a waiting list for one of his dogs. Any of his dogs that don't get placed stay with him, and advance in their training, going home with somebody each night to a home and a bed, until their family is found. If Barrie had five or six bitches in a chain link kennel, ready to whelp, at all times, I wouldn't go near him. His breeding dogs are in homes, with families, playing with their kids. They come to HoH for breeding, then go back home until it's time to whelp. I think you would agree that it's safest to bring them back to the kennel for whelping, wouldn't you? Once the puppies are weaned, the bitch goes back home to her family. Same goes with the studs. They live in normal homes in normal families until it's time for the to come in for a breeding. Barrie has a couple dogs that are his personal dogs, that go everywhere with him. They don't live in kennels. My dog, between the ages of 12 weeks and 6 months, spent his days with Barrie, had his training sessions, and went home with an employee every night. He's well-socialized, he had traveled in cars, he'd been exposed and socialized to young children like I'd requested, and he greeted us like a complete gentleman when we went to visit. My youngest son, age 3, was going through a phase of being "scared of dogs". Barrie didn't just set loose the hounds of hell on us. He brought in a pair of very young puppies, and let my boys hold them. After a while, he took the babies back and brought out a 12-week old puppy, and let the boys play with him. Took him back and brought out one of his most laid back adults. Never did he just set us loose or leave us on our own in the company of his dogs, like has been said before. And when Dylan came out finally, my boys were comfortable, he was comfortable, as parents WE were comfortable. Dylan was polite (NOT shy or nervous) and sociable, greeted us like a gentleman, and took treats very gently from my boys' hands.

How many does he breed? Like I said, I don't know. From my experience, from when I was there, I saw a litter of babies (two of which were the ones my boys played with), a few around 12 weeks of age (and he was able to tell me where each of them was going - they already had families that had spoken for them), and five or six older pups (probably between 3 and 7 months) that were there for advanced training, at the request of the people who had already spoken for and paid for them. There was no obnoxious barking going on, and the "Super Pup" kennel was right next door. It was clean, no poop or kennel smell of any kind, water and food readily available, and staff everywhere. Some cleaning, some playing with (playing with, not training) some of the older pups in the yard, and one answering the phone and doing some general office work. I saw a couple trainers come in and out, as well, including Janine, his head trainer.

Guys, I know this has been rehashed and rehashed, and no matter what anyone says in HoH's defense, you are going to hate them. If you find one person who was not happy, you'll latch onto it. I get that. All I'm saying is that a lot more is being said about HoH than can be substantiated, and a lot of it, as posted in previous Hoytt threads can be said about a lot of other breeders here on DT.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
tnh317, I said dropping like flies from DCM, cancer and vwd. I was making a point. And there are plenty dropping from DCM, from all sorts of breeders, both BYB and ethical. In past Hoytt flames, a big focus has been on his dogs dying of DCM, which is why I brought it up. It's something that affects the breed across the board, even for the most ethical and conscientious of breeders. So to pick on HoH for that disease is rather unwarranted, unless you want to pick on everyone else at the same time. There are also a few Hoytt dogs I read of that died of cancer of various sorts. Again, I've been on a lot of DT's breeders' websites, and tragically, see some of their most beloved dogs (show champions and breeders) with a caption that says "sadly lost at age 4 to cancer", "sadly lost at age 6 to cancer", etc.. I could go on and on. It's a difficult breed to breed, and I won't slam other breeders for losing some dogs to some of the more common diseases. It's tragic, and I can only imagine their pain in losing their dogs so young. But it seems to be something that other people like to pick on when it comes to HoH. I hate that people are losing their dobes. But it's not exclusive to Hoytt dobes. That was my point. I recently lost two dogs to cancer, a mixed breed and a Brussels Griffon. I also lost my mother-in-law, my grandfather, my dog trainer, and I damn near lost my husband (still waiting for that shoe to drop one day). So not only is it not just dobermans, it's not just dogs. Cancer rates have sky-rocketed in this generation's lifetime. But I truly understand that if a doberman owner loses a dog to cancer, or DCM, their first instinct is to be pissed at someone. And it's easy to be pissed at the breeder, especially if it's happened more than once. As for the vwd, dobes bleed out during routine surgeries. Perhaps not specifically on DT. Sorry if that was an over-statement on my part. Again, I was making a point.

ZeldaRules, I don't know how many litters Barrie breeds each year. There is often a waiting list for one of his dogs. Any of his dogs that don't get placed stay with him, and advance in their training, going home with somebody each night to a home and a bed, until their family is found. If Barrie had five or six bitches in a chain link kennel, ready to whelp, at all times, I wouldn't go near him. His breeding dogs are in homes, with families, playing with their kids. They come to HoH for breeding, then go back home until it's time to whelp. I think you would agree that it's safest to bring them back to the kennel for whelping, wouldn't you? Once the puppies are weaned, the bitch goes back home to her family. Same goes with the studs. They live in normal homes in normal families until it's time for the to come in for a breeding. Barrie has a couple dogs that are his personal dogs, that go everywhere with him. They don't live in kennels. My dog, between the ages of 12 weeks and 6 months, spent his days with Barrie, had his training sessions, and went home with an employee every night. He's well-socialized, he had traveled in cars, he'd been exposed and socialized to young children like I'd requested, and he greeted us like a complete gentleman when we went to visit. My youngest son, age 3, was going through a phase of being "scared of dogs". Barrie didn't just set loose the hounds of hell on us. He brought in a pair of very young puppies, and let my boys hold them. After a while, he took the babies back and brought out a 12-week old puppy, and let the boys play with him. Took him back and brought out one of his most laid back adults. Never did he just set us loose or leave us on our own in the company of his dogs, like has been said before. And when Dylan came out finally, my boys were comfortable, he was comfortable, as parents WE were comfortable. Dylan was polite (NOT shy or nervous) and sociable, greeted us like a gentleman, and took treats very gently from my boys' hands.

How many does he breed? Like I said, I don't know. From my experience, from when I was there, I saw a litter of babies (two of which were the ones my boys played with), a few around 12 weeks of age (and he was able to tell me where each of them was going - they already had families that had spoken for them), and five or six older pups (probably between 3 and 7 months) that were there for advanced training, at the request of the people who had already spoken for and paid for them. There was no obnoxious barking going on, and the "Super Pup" kennel was right next door. It was clean, no poop or kennel smell of any kind, water and food readily available, and staff everywhere. Some cleaning, some playing with (playing with, not training) some of the older pups in the yard, and one answering the phone and doing some general office work. I saw a couple trainers come in and out, as well, including Janine, his head trainer.

Guys, I know this has been rehashed and rehashed, and no matter what anyone says in HoH's defense, you are going to hate them. If you find one person who was not happy, you'll latch onto it. I get that. All I'm saying is that a lot more is being said about HoH than can be substantiated, and a lot of it, as posted in previous Hoytt threads can be said about a lot of other breeders here on DT.

Thanks for clarifying but I'm literate. You listed vwd as one of the causes of death of "SO MANY", I'm asking for your statistics on that in particular. If you've seen it so many times, here or elsewhere, it should be easy enough for you to compile a list and provide actual numbers / frequency of occurrence for each of the conditions you've listed.


To quote, well you, if you're going to make a claim...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
Please, everyone. If you're going to say awful things about other breeders, PLEASE make sure you can back it up. Otherwise, it just makes you look ignorant.
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't think the DNA test for DCM should necessarily be considered as "health testing"**. I think it's a great step in the right direction, but I also think that a lot of sub-standard breeders use it as a crutch. If I was a breeder and actually cared for the breed's future, I would holter every dog before it gets bred in addition to annual holters and echos. Dogs that test negative for the DNA test can develop DCM and if breeders rely too much on this test, there will be lots of heart break down the road. Personally, that alone would prevent me from ever buying a dog from HoH.

ETA: I am aware that dog's that are holtered and echoed annually can still develop DCM, but it's a much more proactive approach than having the DNA test done once when they are younger and breeding them until something bad happens.

**I do consider it health testing when it is done alongside other cardio testing.

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Old 07-20-2011, 04:40 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
It's tough for me to read threads like this. I own a Hoytt doberman, both of whose parents tested negative for both DCM genes and for Von Willebrands. Both parents were tested by Barrie Hoytt. He does health testing, and I'm not sure where the rumor started that he doesn't.
Well, you just listed 2 tests that he did on 2 dogs. Was that it? What about hips? What about elbows? What about eyes? What about thyroid? What about liver panel? What about cardiac ultrasound? What about Holter testing?

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Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
He just had another dog reach the DPCA top twenty in obedience. And this is not the first.
I saw the HoH Doberman that won the top 20 a few years ago in the ring when she was competing in the top 20 competition at the national. Did you?
I saw a dog that performed what was asked of her, and she performed it like a robot going through the motions. There was no animation, no joy. It was like a day at the office, no fun, all work. Although I can agree that she was well trained and didn't make a lot of mistakes, which would win her the competition, it made me sad. The dogs who actually looked they were enjoying themselves with their owners even if not technically correct were more a pleasure to watch.

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Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
He won't step foot in a breed ring, and think that pisses a lot of people off. I'm not saying my Hoytt dog would win in the breed ring. He has some physical faults that prevent that. But I didn't want a show dog. I wanted a family dog with the potential to compete in future in obedience and agility. I didn't want a cast-off from a show breeder, because his tail was set too low, or whatever.
Ok, so how does this make any sense? How is your dog with physical faults that prevent showing differ from a show breeder's pet quality dog?

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As for his dogs dropping dead from DCM? Not much and not recently.
Seriously?? Come on. I told you in another thread about a member of another board that I had some contact with that lost her 4th or 5th HoH Dobe IN A ROW earlier this year to dcm. I'm sorry that I can't remember if it was #4 or #5, but it hardly matters - each one was a terrible thing for her to go through.

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Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
I know a lot of you are breeders, who do all the testing in the world, and you've had dogs with DCM. I agree with testing, but DCM is something that is still being researched, and often doesn't show up until later in life. Until much later, after the dog has already been bred. Barrie, like most breeders, eliminates any dog showing health issues, from his breeding program immediately.
But you didn't mention that he did Holter testing and/or cardiac ultrasounds so I ask you again, were those tests done to the parents of your puppy and on all breeding dogs there? If they weren't done, one or both of its parents could actively have dcm that wasn't outwardly apparent yet. That's the problem with waiting for a dog to show a health issue. You can't always see them. You have to look for them. The gene test is only a part of the puzzle, and we already know it's not foolproof as negative dogs are developing the disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
Hoytt dogs in rescue? Hmm. Well, Barrie went on another Dobe forum a few years back, and offered $500 for each Hoytt dog whose name and/or tattoo number they could provide that went through a rescue. He also offered to drive personally to wherever it was, and pick up the dog, and donate that $500 to said rescue. He has tattoos on each dog that leaves his kennel. And did you know that not one single person could provide that information?
Could not or would not? Or were they even able to tell it was a HoH tattoo? Where are the tattoos registered? Would a rescue even be able to tell for sure where the tattoo leads? How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
I just don't understand what the true issue is that most of you have with Mr. Hoytt. Yes, he breeds a lot of dogs.
Sounds to me like you do have something of an understanding of what the true issue is with many of us.

Listen, Barrie Hoytt used to be a member of a Doberman board that I read several years ago. Maybe he still is, I dunno. I'm not a member there any more. He posted there that he is a commercial breeder of Dobermans. That he breeds Dobermans to make money. That's not why responsible breeders breed. We're not in it for ourselves. We're in it for the breed. We try to give back to the breed. We don't expect it to provide for us. That is the true issue, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDogDare View Post
I'd really love for someone to give me concrete examples of Hoytt dogs that they know personally, and/or dissatisfied Hoytt clients. If any of you has owned a Hoytt doberman, and was dissatisfied, please, contact me. I would LOVE names. Both of the dogs and the owners. You have to have HEARD this stuff from someone. Why not tell me who?
I've been reading Doberman forums for 20ish years now, I'd guess. Yes, I've read this stuff somewhere from various someones. You can't really expect me or any of us to remember each and every single person that ever posted about their rotten experience just as I probably won't remember your screen name in 20 years with your good experience. Just because I won't remember your name doesn't mean I'll be making you up in 20 years when I remember you had a good experience. (But then again, you've still got yourself a puppy there and ultimately, you don't know if your entire experience is going to be good. And that's not wishing you any bad vibes either.)

However, if I had to, I probably could put you in touch with the woman from the other board that lost 4 or 5 HoH Dobes to dcm, and gracieface on this board has a puppy owner that also lost their HoH Dobe to dcm. I know because they contacted me, I didn't have a puppy for them and referred them to gracieface. But is she going to give you their names? Probably not. They deserve privacy unless they're interested in contacting you.

One experience I definitely remember, and I'm sure there are others who remember, too, is a woman who had a HoH Doberman named Keeper. She had a website at one time called Keeper's Corner or Keeper's Korner, can't remember which spelling she used. Keeper attacked her and savagely ripped off half of her scalp. This also played out on the board to which I used to belong where Mr. Hoytt was a member. He treated her terribly, in public, on the board. Basically blamed her. But maybe you too would have thought she was just making up "goofy stories".
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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It's really sad when the average pet owner (ME) does more health testing on their neutered male than some of those calling themselves breeders (HOH).

Echo and ECG performed annually. Holtering performed every 6 months:
-ECHO- April 2011- cardiologist said heart is strong, functioning normal
-ECG -April 2011 - normal- evaluation by cardiologist
-holter- Feb 2011- zero VPC's

My point is, if you're breeding there's no reason why cardio exams should not be completed yearly. This allows the breeder to pull dogs from their breeding program that are suspect to cardio or in early stages of heart disease. If you don't test, how will you know? There are dogs with DCM that are asymptomatic.

WE will never win the DCM war if everyone is not on the same page as it relates to Doberman heart disease and cardio testing.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam&macksmom View Post
It's really sad when the average pet owner (ME) does more health testing on their neutered male than some of those calling themselves breeders (HOH).

Echo and ECG performed annually. Holtering performed every 6 months:
-ECHO- April 2011- cardiologist said heart is strong, functioning normal
-ECG -April 2011 - normal- evaluation by cardiologist
-holter- Feb 2011- zero VPC's

My point is, if you're breeding there's no reason why cardio exams should not be completed yearly. This allows the breeder to pull dogs from their breeding program that are suspect to cardio or in early stages of heart disease. If you don't test, how will you know? There are dogs with DCM that are asymptomatic.

WE will never win the DCM war if everyone is not on the same page as it relates to Doberman heart disease and cardio testing.
Same here. Three of us pet owners from here went in and bought a holter last year. No excuse at all for breeder$ not doing it.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Gene test is worthless at this point. My Petey is NEGATIVE and has DCM. So is Baron on this forum. Breeders need to Holter and Echo ALL breeding stock every year.
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