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post #51 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-26-2012, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
Granted, I prefer cropped and docked, but I find it hard to believe that a "bad guy" confronted with a mouthful of Doberman coming at him is going to think of grabbing the dog's tail....
Well for one thing you would be surprised, if a dog grabbed hold of my arm I would attempt to screw it's ears off of it's head quite literally whilst kicking it as hard as I can in the rib cage under its forelegs, you would be surprised when nature kicks in and survival instinct is paramount.
K9 take downs don't always go like in a Schutzhund trial, the sort of people dogs are actually used on are not nice citizens like you and I, chances are these days, round here anyway, they will have a blade on them, better than teeth.

The tail is more for multiple attackers yes the guy getting bit is unlikely to pull the dogs tail but his buddy(s) certainly could.
A sufficiently strong and determined human could easily swing a dog by it's tail into the corner of a wall and break the dogs spine.
A dog isn't a particularly useful tool against multiple attackers with really bad intents.
Perimeter, PP and security dogs get killed.
A human being can be equally vicious and equally effective a killer as any dog.
They are far more effective against students and protesters than hardened criminals.

Asmit has already answered the GSD,Mal situation.
Fact of the matter is that this is why dobermans are traditionally cropped and docked, there is no argument for or against it.
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post #52 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-26-2012, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Ah but the GSDs and mals (although have retained greater working ability nowadays in these fields) were not originally created for personal protection. Shepherds were, well shepherds, and bred for herding. Being a personal protection dog was never in its breed description.

Not that I'm agreeing to the thought process of the tail 'getting in the way', but those two other breeds were not bred specifically for personal protection.
I'm not arguing with you on that point, but I always thought Max wanted GSDs to be all around working dogs, and that quickly turned into police/military dogs with the invention of schutzhund (didn't Max do that too? I know it became a breeding test for them). Now I don't claim to know everything about schutzhund so if I'm wrong tell me so please! But I was always told that the "Shepherd" part of GSD comes from the history of the breeds used to create the GSD, not the GSD's purpose itself.

If you don't want to clog up the thread with discussion, feel free to PM me! I'm honestly curious


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post #53 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-26-2012, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Well for one thing you would be surprised, if a dog grabbed hold of my arm I would attempt to screw it's ears off of it's head quite literally whilst kicking it as hard as I can in the rib cage under its forelegs, you would be surprised when nature kicks in and survival instinct is paramount.
K9 take downs don't always go like in a Schutzhund trial, the sort of people dogs are actually used on are not nice citizens like you and I, chances are these days, round here anyway, they will have a blade on them, better than teeth.

The tail is more for multiple attackers yes the guy getting bit is unlikely to pull the dogs tail but his buddy(s) certainly could.
A sufficiently strong and determined human could easily swing a dog by it's tail into the corner of a wall and break the dogs spine.
A dog isn't a particularly useful tool against multiple attackers with really bad intents.
Perimeter, PP and security dogs get killed.
A human being can be equally vicious and equally effective a killer as any dog.
They are far more effective against students and protesters than hardened criminals.

Asmit has already answered the GSD,Mal situation.
Fact of the matter is that this is why dobermans are traditionally cropped and docked, there is no argument for or against it.
A strength of using dogs for defense/protection is that in general they're a psychological deterrent. Obviously, nothing works for everybody, and I am certainly sorry for police dogs and such that get harmed in the line of duty.

However, even as a law-abiding citizen, I have a blade on me. As I'm not given to things such as criminal trespass and/or fleeing the police, if a dog is so inclined to be latched on to me, I pity the dog, but I hope I have the presence of mind to use said blade to my defense. You are correct, survival is one of those things. One of humanity's last instincts, perhaps? (though it's clearly broken in some individuals.....)

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post #54 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-27-2012, 01:36 AM
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Yes indeed.
In the uk we became disarmed, including the carrying of blades, so generally anyone with a blade on them here is up to no good or someone that understands marine law and consent.

If I lived in the US I would have a gun for protection, not a dog that's for sure.
I'm not trying to derail anything here but my advice is don't let your government de-arm you because the criminals care not for such laws.
The only people here with guns are the bad guys and the government which some would view as the same thing....
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post #55 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-27-2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictator View Post
Klubbens historie

Danish Dobermann Club

In 20/30 years there will probably no longer be cropped/docked Dobes in the US due to Vets no longer doing it.

Did Dobermann registrations start going down after the cropping ban?
I'm not sure of the answer to that. Dobermans do not account for a large proportion of dogs in the uk, I think that docking tails did not affect the popularity that much because people just started getting them from Ireland, which is a short boat trip away.

However one bad side effect of this is you can now buy a doberman pup from a whole litter imported from Ireland without access to the dam or sire.
One thing you do have to watch on this side of the country when you have a doberpup or even an adult is theft of your dog.
Just as it is a short boat trip from Ireland it is equally a short boat trip to Ireland and stolen dogs can be very easily transported out of the UK for breeding purposes. I had alot of unwanted attention to the twins when they were pups as the opportunity to steal two is far more tempting than stealing one.

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post #56 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 04:52 AM
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One thing I do remember when docking got banned was spme dobermans with like semi bushy tails.
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post #57 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 11:50 AM
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From the link dictator posted (post #49)

Quote:
TAILS

There are almost 100 breeds that are traditionally docked. Docking is done when the puppies are 4 days old, it has scientifically established, that the nerves in tail are not activated and the puppies feel no pain what so ever.
To those people who claim that dog uses his tail for balance and communication, the answer is very simple. Puppies that have been docked have not encountered any problems with balance or communication...
The reason for docking Dobermann is very simple, the Dobermann used to be a police dog and service dog and by docking the tail we, prevented the criminal from grabbing the dog by his tail during action.
In his book "The Dobermann Pinscher" 1959 edition, Philipp Gruennig disclosed that in the past there were Dobermann that borne with "Bob Tail": natural short tail, however these blood lines lost, for the Dobermann breeders concentrated their breeding efforts to improve the production of deep tan markings.
There is stuff about ears also.
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post #58 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 12:09 PM
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When I worked for a vet GSP puppies were brought in to be docked. At the time I was told their nerves weren't developed and they didn't feel it. Interestingly enough their yelping coincided precisely with the tail docking. No, the yelping didn't last long, but it still occurred. I don't know when it was scientifically established they don't feel pain, but I'm skeptical based on my observations. People used to think lobsters and crabs didn't feel pain either and would rip their legs off. Science is now showing that's not the case; that they do feel pain.

Just a quick search. I can't get to the whole article.

Recent advances in knowledge about pain and the changes in approach to pain management, refute the premise that ‘puppies do not feel pain therefore tail docking is not inhumane’ and also the premise that ‘the pain and the effects of tail docking are insignificant.’ Six criteria to test the ‘necessity’ to dock dogs are presented; this article shows that the reasons advanced for tail docking do not satisfy these criteria and so that docking dogs' tails cannot be justified.

Cosmetic tail docking of dogs - WANSBROUGH - 2008 - Australian Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library


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post #59 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictator View Post
Klubbens historie

Danish Dobermann Club

In 20/30 years there will probably no longer be cropped/docked Dobes in the US due to Vets no longer doing it.

Did Dobermann registrations start going down after the cropping ban?
While I personally agree that cropping is a dying art (even though it makes me sad), it is still legal to dock tails without a veterinarian up to 5 days of age in my state - the best docker in my area is a vet tech/Doberman breeder. Docking is more of an art than most people would think .... knowing where to dock a tiny little tail on a 2-4 day old puppy is not easy and knowing where the vertebra are is almost impossible. Most vets would not do a great job of knowing where to dock different breeds.

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post #60 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 12:40 PM
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To add to lestats comment, think of all the poor dobermans in the old days getting their ears cropped without anaesthetic.
It's no wonder the old doberman was crackers!
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post #61 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
While I personally agree that cropping is a dying art (even though it makes me sad), it is still legal to dock tails without a veterinarian up to 5 days of age in my state - the best docker in my area is a vet tech/Doberman breeder. Docking is more of an art than most people would think .... knowing where to dock a tiny little tail on a 2-4 day old puppy is not easy and knowing where the vertebra are is almost impossible. Most vets would not do a great job of knowing where to dock different breeds.
Dobermann breed by Avi Marshak

This is the article I posted previously by the FCI Judge on ears and tails in the Dobermann Breed.

On Dobermann Review there is a question and answer with him where he stated Doberman Registrations in Scandinavian Countries are down by about 1/2.

UK since the docking ban went into effect went from about 2487 in 2007 to 1457 in 2011.

Australia also down quite a bit I'd have to look up the figures.

I'd love to see Germanys but I don't know how to get the info.

I believe if the US banned cropping and docking registrations would probably go down here also.

People love their natural Dobes and people love their cropped/docked Dobes the simplest answer seems to be there should be a choice.

The problem is unintended consequences Doberman registrations going down thereby making the gene pool even smaller losing even more genetic diversity and making inherited diseases worse.
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post #62 of 67 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictator View Post
Dobermann breed by Avi Marshak

This is the article I posted previously by the FCI Judge on ears and tails in the Dobermann Breed.

On Dobermann Review there is a question and answer with him where he stated Doberman Registrations in Scandinavian Countries are down by about 1/2.

UK since the docking ban went into effect went from about 2487 in 2007 to 1457 in 2011.

Australia also down quite a bit I'd have to look up the figures.

I'd love to see Germanys but I don't know how to get the info.

I believe if the US banned cropping and docking registrations would probably go down here also.

People love their natural Dobes and people love their cropped/docked Dobes the simplest answer seems to be there should be a choice.

The problem is unintended consequences Doberman registrations going down thereby making the gene pool even smaller losing even more genetic diversity and making inherited diseases worse.
This. I am sick of choices being taken away from people, all the time with the theft of freedom to choose.
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post #63 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-07-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictator View Post
People love their natural Dobes and people love their cropped/docked Dobes the simplest answer seems to be there should be a choice.

The problem is unintended consequences Doberman registrations going down thereby making the gene pool even smaller losing even more genetic diversity and making inherited diseases worse.
^^^THIS^^^ We need more of a gene pool, not less of one.

Regarding the bollux (sp?) about pups not feeling their tails being docked, they tried that fairytale with circumcison too. Just because the wee ones are too small to create much of a fuss doesn't mean you aren't hurting them.

Lidocaine is cheap. Why not take an extra few moments to numb the tail before docking? I have held hundreds of pups for this procedure as I worked for a very talented vet. Never a visible scar. I always hated my part in it though because I felt we could make those pups comfortable.

I'll go back to petting my gazelle-necked, mule-eared beautiful pup now. =)

Oh, is there a quick place to look up the number of dobies registered with AKC last year?

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post #64 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-07-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
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Oh, is there a quick place to look up the number of dobies registered with AKC last year?

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This just give the ranking in popularity. AKC Dog Registration Statistics Ther is another link that shows all the statistics for registrations and titles earned (2011 was the latest), but I can't find it. I really hate the "new" website.


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post #65 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-08-2013, 12:07 AM
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I think it depends on the dog I really dislike a rott dock on a dob (or just in general) but if its 4 vertebrae it probably looks just as silly. I think riots tail is 2-3 vertebrae and while it is a big longer than I see I really like it. I can see it wag or if she's alert or scared.


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post #66 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-08-2013, 05:54 PM
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First Doberman I owned came from a "breeder" named jeff swank (sorry, I didn't know any better), he still sells pups by the dozens. Anyway, her tail was HORRIBLY docked. the last 1/3 to 1/4 was a big ugly scar. it was cut way too long and was constantly bleeding and cracked. He forgot to tell us about this til we came to pick her up. We had to have the tip of her tail surgically amputated. She had a blood vessel that was a "bleeder" and we could have lost her. It took a blood transfusion and a stay in the vets office. AND after having the tip amputated her tail is STILL longer than the standard calls for!!! Oh, did I mention I bought her as a "Show quality pup"

Oh well, she's mine and I love her. I COULDN't sell her for $50 but I WOULDN'T sell her for $5000.00
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post #67 of 67 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 07:47 PM
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