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Old 02-13-2011, 10:19 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Whitesage Dobermans?

Anybody know about this breeder in Colorado Springs. She seems pretty on point and her dogs look beautiful.

I am going to meet some of their puppies, can anyone tell me some key things to look at while I am there. Also, any important questions that I should ask?

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Old 02-13-2011, 10:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
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no health testing shown, no titles- I wouldn't buy a puppy from there.

interesting they have a cambria dog as one of their stud dogs... wonder if they know that?
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I think she told me she had genetic screening done. She is asking $1,200.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Looks like another Kimbertal clone to me. The sire of their bitches that they mention is Elisir Dax di Altobello, who is one of Kimbertal's studs, so I bet that is where their bitches came from. Doesn't look like they much with their dogs, except for breeding them.

If you look carefully, they don't own the Cambria dog. He belongs to another greeder in CO.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Please spend some time on this resource
Buying A Doberman Pinscher

Take your time and get to learn the questions you need to ask BEFORE you visit ANY breeder.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm new to the Doberman world, so what is the implication of Kimbertal clone?
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Personally I would ask the questions before I visited the puppies. That way your choice is not influenced by cute, wiggly puppies!

Be aware also that any health guarantee that ends prior to age 2, is essentially worthless, as many health tests cannot be performed until AFTER the dog is 2 years of age.

No puppy should go to its new home until 8 weeks of age, at minimum.

Below is a list of health tests, both parents should have and you should physically see and touch certification of such:

Responsible Doberman breeders today, in general, are testing for hip and elbow dysplasia, von Willebrand’s disease (vWD), thyroid disease, genetic eye disease, normal cardiac function, and normal liver function.
DPCA | The Doberman | Health
BJF Dobermans--Genetic Defects and Testing Explained

Hips and elbows

Responsible breeders send their dog’s hip and elbow x-rays to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) for evaluation.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia
Ask the breeder for OFA hip/elbow results. This can be verified through the OFA database.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Breeders may also elect to register results of other health testing with the OFA. Currently the OFA registers results of thyroid testing by approved laboratories, cardiac testing by approved evaluators and vWD DNA tests by VetGen.

Another method of evaluating hips is the PennHip method. A breeder may have PennHip ratings rather than OFA ratings.
PennHIP Home
Dog Owner's Guide: PennHip method of diagnosing hip dysplasia

Hip and elbow evaluations are normally done once in the lifetime of the dog.

Von Willebrand’s disease

There are two companies in the US offering vWD DNA tests. VWD is a bleeding disorder. It is imperative that Dobermans be tested for this as we are now able to eliminate this disease by testing and breeding carefully. By testing the parents of a litter, a breeder can usually tell you what vWD status the puppies will have.
VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services

DNA tests for vWD are only required once in the lifetime of the dog.

Thyroid

Thyroid testing is normally done routinely on Dobermans by responsible breeders. Thyroid results can vary with age. It is recommended that routine thyroid tests begin around 18 months of age and continue every 12-18 months throughout the lifetime of the dog. A full thyroid panel should be completed on any breeding dogs. A full thyroid panel measures Total Thyroxine (TT4), Total Triiodothyronine (TT3), Free T4 (FT4), Free T3 (FT3), T4 Autoantibody, T3 Autoantibody, and canine Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (cTSH).

The thyroid impacts many of the body’s most important organs. Thyroid testing should not be overlooked.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Thyroid Disease
Thyroid Deficiency
Canine Hypothyroidism: Frequently Asked Questions / Diagnosing and Treating Underactive Thyroid Problems in Dogs / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs

Eyes

Dogs can be examined for the presence of inheritable eye disease by CERF certified canine ophthalmologists. CERF stands for Canine Eye Registration Foundation.
CERF - Canine Eye Registration Foundation
Eye testing is something that must be done yearly – a CERF certificate is valid only for one year. Ask the breeder when was the last date and result of CERF eye testing. This may be verified through the CERF database.
CERF - CERF Certification Online Verification
(Some breeders elect not to register the results in the database - ask the breeder to see the copy of the CERF test instead.)



Heart

Dilated cardiomyopathy continues to be one of the biggest problem in Dobermans today. Annual cardiac ultrasounds and electrocardiograms are a must, especially for breeding dogs. Holter monitoring (a 24 hour ecg) is now available worldwide. Some breeders and clubs are purchasing their own Holter monitors.


In October 2010, a DNA test was released to identify one gene (called the PDK4 gene) said to cause dilated cardiomyopathy. It is widely felt that more genes responsible for causing dilated cardiomyopathy will be found in the future, but at this time, it's the only cardiac DNA test we have.
Dog DNA Tests from the VCGL at the College of Veterinary Medicine

The Washington State University Veterinary Cardiac Genetics Lab keeps a database of the PDK4 DNA results online.
Doberman DCM Test from the VCGL at the College of Veterinary Medicine
(Some elect not to have their results published online, so ask the breeder if the dogs have been tested. Ask the breeder for a copy of the results.)
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I have read that link a few times, but I still find it hard to judge. A certificate of health and lineage doesn't really help me since I don't bloodlines etc...
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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avianantics thanks! I'll post what I think/saw when I get back.

Thanks
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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We are Jeff and Rhonda Lawrence and live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. We breed healthy, beautiful Doberman Pinschers. We have one to two litters in our home per year. Our Dobermans are our family dogs that we breed occasionally.

From the website.

Think they should look up the definition of Occasionally.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landsman303 View Post
I have read that link a few times, but I still find it hard to judge. A certificate of health and lineage doesn't really help me since I don't bloodlines etc...
This is a breed riddled with expensive and fatal health problems. You may want to step back a bit, and learn a bit more about this breed, so that your choice of a Breeder is an educated one.

Kimbertal is a huge commercial puppy mill in PA that breeds hundreds of poor quality, health compromised puppies each year.

Health testing certificates:

For vWD status you want to see proof of such issued by VetGen.
For Hips/Elbows you want to see proof of such issued by OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)
For Eyes you want to see proof of such issued by CERF (Canine Eye Research Foundation)
For Heart, you want to see proof of Holter Results, I know that ALBA Medical reads results, so you want certification from them or another qualified source.
Echocardiogram results should be issued by a board certified canine cardiologist.
Breeder should be willing to provide the complete lab results from the Liver and Thyroid panels. The results paperwork will show the normal range, and the test results of the dog. Appropriate lab results will have the name of the testing laboratory, the veterinarian and the dog and owners last name, at minimum.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:01 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz.kara View Post
no health testing shown, no titles- I wouldn't buy a puppy from there.

interesting they have a cambria dog as one of their stud dogs... wonder if they know that?
if you look down the dogs page you find a link to another site, who are the actual owners of the dog. Interesting that he was shown as a pup, did well but then an injury that prevented him from being shown- wonder what that was.
I went to the other site, which lists his health testing, he is 9 and still available at stud.
makes you wonder what standards the real owners have.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Do more reading, ask more questions and check out the DPCA BREEDER's REFERRAL for more breeders in your area.

Also, check out the RECOMMENDED BREEDERS spreadsheet here on DT.

Also, keep in mind that just because a breeder is a member of DPCA does NOT mean the breeder is a good breeder, and if a breeder is not a member of DPCA does not mean the breeder is a bad breeder. Research and homework are still required. Arm yourself with a list of questions and insist on seeing proof of all health testing, titles, etc.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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That Cambria dog, he got to over 10. i see he has his LC-10L.
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Last edited by Darkevs; 02-13-2011 at 11:52 AM.. Reason: mixed up wording or spelling, one or the other. :)
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avianantics View Post
Personally I would ask the questions before I visited the puppies. That way your choice is not influenced by cute, wiggly puppies!

Be aware also that any health guarantee that ends prior to age 2, is essentially worthless, as many health tests cannot be performed until AFTER the dog is 2 years of age.

No puppy should go to its new home until 8 weeks of age, at minimum.

Below is a list of health tests, both parents should have and you should physically see and touch certification of such:

Responsible Doberman breeders today, in general, are testing for hip and elbow dysplasia, von Willebrand’s disease (vWD), thyroid disease, genetic eye disease, normal cardiac function, and normal liver function.
DPCA | The Doberman | Health
BJF Dobermans--Genetic Defects and Testing Explained

Hips and elbows

Responsible breeders send their dog’s hip and elbow x-rays to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) for evaluation.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia
Ask the breeder for OFA hip/elbow results. This can be verified through the OFA database.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Breeders may also elect to register results of other health testing with the OFA. Currently the OFA registers results of thyroid testing by approved laboratories, cardiac testing by approved evaluators and vWD DNA tests by VetGen.

Another method of evaluating hips is the PennHip method. A breeder may have PennHip ratings rather than OFA ratings.
PennHIP Home
Dog Owner's Guide: PennHip method of diagnosing hip dysplasia

Hip and elbow evaluations are normally done once in the lifetime of the dog.

Von Willebrand’s disease

There are two companies in the US offering vWD DNA tests. VWD is a bleeding disorder. It is imperative that Dobermans be tested for this as we are now able to eliminate this disease by testing and breeding carefully. By testing the parents of a litter, a breeder can usually tell you what vWD status the puppies will have.
VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services

DNA tests for vWD are only required once in the lifetime of the dog.

Thyroid

Thyroid testing is normally done routinely on Dobermans by responsible breeders. Thyroid results can vary with age. It is recommended that routine thyroid tests begin around 18 months of age and continue every 12-18 months throughout the lifetime of the dog. A full thyroid panel should be completed on any breeding dogs. A full thyroid panel measures Total Thyroxine (TT4), Total Triiodothyronine (TT3), Free T4 (FT4), Free T3 (FT3), T4 Autoantibody, T3 Autoantibody, and canine Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (cTSH).

The thyroid impacts many of the body’s most important organs. Thyroid testing should not be overlooked.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Thyroid Disease
Thyroid Deficiency
Canine Hypothyroidism: Frequently Asked Questions / Diagnosing and Treating Underactive Thyroid Problems in Dogs / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs

Eyes

Dogs can be examined for the presence of inheritable eye disease by CERF certified canine ophthalmologists. CERF stands for Canine Eye Registration Foundation.
CERF - Canine Eye Registration Foundation
Eye testing is something that must be done yearly – a CERF certificate is valid only for one year. Ask the breeder when was the last date and result of CERF eye testing. This may be verified through the CERF database.
CERF - CERF Certification Online Verification
(Some breeders elect not to register the results in the database - ask the breeder to see the copy of the CERF test instead.)



Heart

Dilated cardiomyopathy continues to be one of the biggest problem in Dobermans today. Annual cardiac ultrasounds and electrocardiograms are a must, especially for breeding dogs. Holter monitoring (a 24 hour ecg) is now available worldwide. Some breeders and clubs are purchasing their own Holter monitors.


In October 2010, a DNA test was released to identify one gene (called the PDK4 gene) said to cause dilated cardiomyopathy. It is widely felt that more genes responsible for causing dilated cardiomyopathy will be found in the future, but at this time, it's the only cardiac DNA test we have.
Dog DNA Tests from the VCGL at the College of Veterinary Medicine

The Washington State University Veterinary Cardiac Genetics Lab keeps a database of the PDK4 DNA results online.
Doberman DCM Test from the VCGL at the College of Veterinary Medicine
(Some elect not to have their results published online, so ask the breeder if the dogs have been tested. Ask the breeder for a copy of the results)
Ok, I think if you're going to quote from an article that Lisa Douzos and I wrote that appears on the DPCA site, you shouldn't just sign your name to it as if you wrote it, avianantics. Back to your regular scheduled posts ...
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Didn't sign my name to it and absolutely never intended for anybody to think I wrote it. Copied directly from the DT link.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avianantics View Post
Personally I would ask the questions before I visited the puppies. That way your choice is not influenced by cute, wiggly puppies!

Be aware also that any health guarantee that ends prior to age 2, is essentially worthless, as many health tests cannot be performed until AFTER the dog is 2 years of age.

No puppy should go to its new home until 8 weeks of age, at minimum.

Below is a list of health tests, both parents should have and you should physically see and touch certification of such:

Responsible Doberman breeders today, in general, are testing for hip and elbow dysplasia, von Willebrand’s disease (vWD), thyroid disease, genetic eye disease, normal cardiac function, and normal liver function.
DPCA | The Doberman | Health
BJF Dobermans--Genetic Defects and Testing Explained

Hips and elbows

Responsible breeders send their dog’s hip and elbow x-rays to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) for evaluation.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia
Ask the breeder for OFA hip/elbow results. This can be verified through the OFA database.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Breeders may also elect to register results of other health testing with the OFA. Currently the OFA registers results of thyroid testing by approved laboratories, cardiac testing by approved evaluators and vWD DNA tests by VetGen.

Another method of evaluating hips is the PennHip method. A breeder may have PennHip ratings rather than OFA ratings.
PennHIP Home
Dog Owner's Guide: PennHip method of diagnosing hip dysplasia

Hip and elbow evaluations are normally done once in the lifetime of the dog.

Von Willebrand’s disease

There are two companies in the US offering vWD DNA tests. VWD is a bleeding disorder. It is imperative that Dobermans be tested for this as we are now able to eliminate this disease by testing and breeding carefully. By testing the parents of a litter, a breeder can usually tell you what vWD status the puppies will have.
VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services

DNA tests for vWD are only required once in the lifetime of the dog.

Thyroid

Thyroid testing is normally done routinely on Dobermans by responsible breeders. Thyroid results can vary with age. It is recommended that routine thyroid tests begin around 18 months of age and continue every 12-18 months throughout the lifetime of the dog. A full thyroid panel should be completed on any breeding dogs. A full thyroid panel measures Total Thyroxine (TT4), Total Triiodothyronine (TT3), Free T4 (FT4), Free T3 (FT3), T4 Autoantibody, T3 Autoantibody, and canine Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (cTSH).

The thyroid impacts many of the body’s most important organs. Thyroid testing should not be overlooked.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Thyroid Disease
Thyroid Deficiency
Canine Hypothyroidism: Frequently Asked Questions / Diagnosing and Treating Underactive Thyroid Problems in Dogs / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs

Eyes

Dogs can be examined for the presence of inheritable eye disease by CERF certified canine ophthalmologists. CERF stands for Canine Eye Registration Foundation.
CERF - Canine Eye Registration Foundation
Eye testing is something that must be done yearly – a CERF certificate is valid only for one year. Ask the breeder when was the last date and result of CERF eye testing. This may be verified through the CERF database.
CERF - CERF Certification Online Verification
(Some breeders elect not to register the results in the database - ask the breeder to see the copy of the CERF test instead.)



Heart

Dilated cardiomyopathy continues to be one of the biggest problem in Dobermans today. Annual cardiac ultrasounds and electrocardiograms are a must, especially for breeding dogs. Holter monitoring (a 24 hour ecg) is now available worldwide. Some breeders and clubs are purchasing their own Holter monitors.


In October 2010, a DNA test was released to identify one gene (called the PDK4 gene) said to cause dilated cardiomyopathy. It is widely felt that more genes responsible for causing dilated cardiomyopathy will be found in the future, but at this time, it's the only cardiac DNA test we have.
Dog DNA Tests from the VCGL at the College of Veterinary Medicine

The Washington State University Veterinary Cardiac Genetics Lab keeps a database of the PDK4 DNA results online.
Doberman DCM Test from the VCGL at the College of Veterinary Medicine
(Some elect not to have their results published online, so ask the breeder if the dogs have been tested. Ask the breeder for a copy of the results.)
This is some great information...thanks for posting it.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avianantics View Post
Didn't sign my name to it and absolutely never intended for anybody to think I wrote it. Copied directly from the DT link.

Just credit Mary and Lisa next time in your post, and give the link to the source, for clarity.

It's a touchy subject for writers, and that courtesy is appreciated--not everyone knows to do it, and I'm sure your omission was not meant to be malicious in any way
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:31 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Well I went to look at the little ones. She had 10 pups, very cute. But as mentioned above the breeder did not have much in terms of health certificates. She has offered a 2 year breeders health warranty. The breeder did have a Yugoslavian pedigree of the mother, but nothing from the father. She does not crop ears, that would be an extra $450.

So I am not sure what to do. I am just looking for a companion and exercise partner. I don't think I need to chase these prestigious bloodlines, I'm not going to breed or show the dog. Health is important to me, but there is never a guarantee with any dog. So I told her I would get back to her.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landsman303 View Post
Health is important to me, but there is never a guarantee with any dog.

No, but you can certainly improve your odds with health tested parents...:wink:
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landsman303 View Post
Well I went to look at the little ones. She had 10 pups, very cute. But as mentioned above the breeder did not have much in terms of health certificates. She has offered a 2 year breeders health warranty. The breeder did have a Yugoslavian pedigree of the mother, but nothing from the father. She does not crop ears, that would be an extra $450.

So I am not sure what to do. I am just looking for a companion and exercise partner. I don't think I need to chase these prestigious bloodlines, I'm not going to breed or show the dog. Health is important to me, but there is never a guarantee with any dog. So I told her I would get back to her.
http://www.dobermantalk.com/images/smilies/strong.gif
Thanks for input, this forum is great.
You can get a great companion, pet quality dog from a show breeder, that's the best place to find them. You dog would be a pet, but it will come from fully health tested parents, with titles on them to show they they are worthy of being bred and passing their genes on to further generations. There are no guarantees, but if you buy a pet puppy from a responsible breeder, you have the best odds on getting a healthy dog.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landsman303 View Post
Well I went to look at the little ones. She had 10 pups, very cute. But as mentioned above the breeder did not have much in terms of health certificates. She has offered a 2 year breeders health warranty. The breeder did have a Yugoslavian pedigree of the mother, but nothing from the father. She does not crop ears, that would be an extra $450.

So I am not sure what to do. I am just looking for a companion and exercise partner. I don't think I need to chase these prestigious bloodlines, I'm not going to breed or show the dog. Health is important to me, but there is never a guarantee with any dog. So I told her I would get back to her.
http://www.dobermantalk.com/images/smilies/strong.gif
Thanks for input, this forum is great.
Good for you for resisting cute puppies. It is not easy to do. In a previous post you were given links to DPCA and the Recommended Breeders list here on DT. Do contact some of these breeders. It is NOT about prestigious bloodlines, but rather a sound puppy from health tested parents that will make a good companion for your family.

You are correct there are NO guarantees, however, if parents are vWD tested, hips/elbows x-rayed, eyes checked, thyroid checked, and cardio tests performed -- you are much less likely to get a puppy with these issues.

Stack the odds in your favor, pay a few extra dollars and you will get a puppy that is cropped, docked, guaranteed and much more likely to lead a long and healthy life.

Good luck to you.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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It's also about being an ethical consumer, don't forget.

I know it can be overwhelming, when, as you say, you're new to the breed, but there is a lot more to take into consideration when making a Doberman puppy purchase.

Our beloved breed is so plaqued with heritable health issues--many of them fatal, and a nasty, ugly miserable kind of fatal--that I myself would not reward anyone with my money unless they were doing all the health testing, making a careful study of every dog in the pedigree with regard to their health testing, thus doing everything that is in their power to protect each puppy they cause to be brought into this world.

This kind of breeder also stands behind each and every puppy, for life, not just two years.

If you want to go the complete crap shoot route with regards to health, an ethical way to do THAT is to support animal charity by adopting thru a reputable rescue group or helping a shelter dog. No, you won't know all the health behind that dog's lineage--but you also won't be paying some jerk for not caring enough to test their breeding animals--instead you'll be helping innocent homeless dogs.

Good luck with your decision.
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I just wanted to add that it's not only health issues that worry me. I'm dealing with temperament issues with my girl that are the direct result of poor breeding practices. An ethical breeder will be breeding healthy dogs with great temperaments. They will match you with a puppy that will fit your family.

If I had found DT before I bought my girl I would have saved myself a lot of money and heartache. And she's "only a pet." I promise you'll be a lot happier if you wait a little while and find a great breeder. It's worth it.
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