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Old 12-06-2010, 11:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Elite Family Dogs

I'm new to this forum and was dirrected here by remarks made in this forum in 2008. When you google elite family dogs this is one of the links that come up: Elite Family Dogs LLC
I have one of Elite's Family Dogs Doberman's, and I have had large breed dogs all my life. And he is beyond exellent. He is kind, loving, protective, extremely healthy, and more intelligent than any dog I have ever had.
He in fact last year ran out in the street and gently pulled a little boy out of traffic that he didn't even know.
Elite Family Dogs is just opposite of a pupply mill. It is a family farm where the whole family love and treat all thier dogs better than humans. The owner is an amazing dog trainer who never lifts a hand or raises his voice to any of his dogs.
The main reason he doesn't push pedigree's is that he has some strong feelings about how they have in the past consentrated more on conformation and size restrictions than health and breed stability. And I can't say I disagree. He can however, provide you with more than 25 years of health records and happy customers.
Why the members of that forum would in such a non-chalant manner be willing to ruin someone's lives, and reputation based on a snap judgement from a telephone convesation is shameful.
I just felt like I should comment because it's 2010 and it is still hurting thier reputation when you google their name 2 years later.
................. D0berman
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Generally speaking, if a breeder (the following isn't inclusive of all warning signs, just a few from the Elite Dobe's website)-
  • Fails to provide information on heath testing on the website
  • Breeds oversized or 'giant' dobermans
  • Doesn't provide a pedigree so that you can see your puppy's ancestors
  • Doesn't title his or her dogs (show, working, etc)
  • Doesn't provide information on their adult dogs at all- no pictures, no names, etc.

They're going to be regarded as unethical and a poor choice for anyone looking for a puppy. I'd rule Elite out just on the fact they breed oversized Dobermans. A breeder who won't tell which dogs he or she has used in their breeding program is definitely out. I want to know the health and titles of any puppy's ancestors, if and when I go to a breeder for a dog.

I don't want a puppy from someone who doesn't follow the standard- The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square- just to start with. It's up to the buyer to make an informed choice, and were I looking for a puppy, I'd want health-tested, working titled parents from lines that I could research the ancestors in the pedigree from if I so chose, and all from a responsible breeder who holds to the standard of this medium-sized working breed without churning out multiple litters a year.

Does that mean when I'm ready for a puppy that I'll have a long wait? Sure, it does. I'll do it though, because getting a well bred Doberman is worth the wait. But that's just me. You can make your own choice.
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I just felt like I should comment because it's 2010 and it is still hurting thier reputation when you google their name 2 years later.
................. D0berman

I'm glad to hear that those posts are still coming up in the search engine. People who are looking for a puppy should educate themselves about the breeder who they are considering purchasing a dog from. This is by far not some one I would consider a reputable breeder, or a breeder who breeds with the breed's best interests at mind. It takes all of 2 seconds on their website to see that. People should be well aware of this and unfortunately people who are new to the dog world and dog shopping will not necessarily have the common knowledge to stay away from crappy breeders like this one.

It's nice that you're happy with your dog. If you read this forum there are others who have bought from crappy breeders as well and they love their dogs just as much. However that is in no way an excuse for their poor breeding practices.

Breeding for large size is major red flag number one. Refusing to share the dogs' pedigrees is major red flag number two. Claiming that their dogs will "not embarrass you with what is known as doggy behavior", will protect of sheer instinct, are born eager to please are all more red flags. They are perpetuating an image and myths in order to sell their dogs, their training ideology is completely unrealistic and any relevant and reputable trainer would at the very least shake their head at the nonsense written and perpetuated on that website.

I don't even want to start guessing at the unreasonable rates they are most likely charging for their poor quality dogs simply because they self attached the "elite" label on to them.
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:55 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Website Verification

River and Zucker;
Before we enter into a discussion can you please verify the website your comments are referencing? You said Elite Dobe's website.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
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River and Zucker;
Before we enter into a discussion can you please verify the website your comments are referencing? You said Elite Dobe's website.
i'm more than positive they are referring to the breeder you came on here to defend. it's pretty obvious, imo.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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OP, I am glad you are happy with your dog.

I have rescued Dobermans, and I am very, very happy with my dogs, as well.

They came, presumably, from breeding programs where the breeders apparently never followed up nor have any idea where they even are, now. They landed safely, but both came thru doggie hell, first.

The point? Point being, Dobermans are fantastic dogs, wherever they came from, and no matter their background.

It's only natural to be entranced by them and really bond closely with them--BUT it is no reflection on your breeder as a good breeder, sorry. Even Dobermans from crappy breeders are very special dogs, as individuals.

Elite Family Dogs are doing far too many things wrong, that are detrimental to the breed, for most folks here to ever support them.

Did you know there is a new DNA test for dilated cardiomyopathy in the Doberman? Is your breeder doing this test? Do they holter and echo their dogs, as well, before letting them pass on their genes?

I wonder if they would answer with smoke and mirrors and misinformation, if you questioned them? They certainly have a lot of other misinformation on their site, including some terrible, completely inaccurate myths about training.

So, welcome to the forum, hope you stick around, post pics of your dog, and enjoy all the knowledge that is to be had, here.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Looks like Elite set that website up nearly 10 yrs ago and haven't touched it since. No way would I ever buy a doberman or recommend someone buy a doberman from them.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Why is it obvious?

Ms Punkischic;
I'm not sure how you could be positive, or that it is obvious, that they both are talking about the same website.Here are a group of website that all contain Elite and make reference to Doberman's:
elitedobermann.com, Police K9 Equipment - BITE SLEEVES, BITE SUITS CANINE, WORKING DOG, MILITARY, POLICE, EQUIPMENT,, http://www.elite-house-dobermanns.co...k9security.com
Not to mention all the link descriptions that contain the meta tags Elite, Doberman, etc.
I'm trying to make sure we are talking about the same breeder as a precurser to discussion about his abilities.

Last edited by D0berman; 12-06-2010 at 01:37 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Instead of refrencing incorrect websites, maybe you should provide the forum with the link to the correct website. That way there would be no confusion or doubt that they are reviewing and discussing the correct website and breeder.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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introduce us, so there will be no mistaking who YOU are talking about.

is your dogs breeder the one your link goes to in your first post on this thread?

edit.......... don't beat around the bush, just rip that bush out of the way so i can see who you are talkin' abooooooot.

everything else aside.....................got any pictures? we love pictures here on dt.

Kansadobes..................same thoughts we had there.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Everyone is talking about the same breeder... The entire site's emphasis is on how "easy" their dogs are, and how their training style is superior. Where does it talk about health testing? Where does it give any kind of info about the breed? Where does it talk about the accomplishments of their dogs, and what they are capable of?

For anyone that knows even a little bit, this site looks very much like it's trying to capture those that don't know any better. There is not one piece of information on that site anywhere, that an experienced down owner would read and say "O wow, that was good". Nothing. This doesn't mean that the info is not "somewhere", but not having it on the site would lead the vast majority of people to never call them. I bet this site gets calls from mostly first time dog owners, first time dobe owners, and in general people with limited dog experience. The reason for that is that like I said, anyone that knows what to look for would never go back for a 2nd look.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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umm the website you mentioned is an online store that sells dog equipment and has nothing to do with Doberman breeding.

You yourself mentioned the breeder by name"Elite Family Dogs", which is also the same breeder discussed in the link you had posted to the previous posts. When you Google that term, the first hit is the breeder that goes by the name of "Elite Family Dogs" located at Elite Family Dogs Home Page, the people named on the site are Steve, Pauline Gabriel & Sterling McKinnon, which are the same names you mentioned, the following listing on Google is the thread you yourself mentioned.

I don't believe there is any doubt in any one's head but your own we are all talking about the same breeder. I'm not sure if you're in denial about the reputation this breeder has and think perhaps we're all thinking about some other "Elite Family Dogs" breeder that does not actually exist, but believe me, we are all talking about the exact same business.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
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River and Zucker;
Before we enter into a discussion can you please verify the website your comments are referencing? You said Elite Dobe's website.
Verify it? Sure. The breeder mentioned in both this thread and the one you linked to is Elite Family Dogs. And here's their website:

Elite Family Dogs

Last edited by River; 12-06-2010 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Website not updated

Linda H;
Why would their ablility or inability to update thier website have a bearing on whether or not they are good breaders? My uncle is a very saught after architect but his website is horrible and out dated. Does that mean he can't design a house?
As this thread goes along if nothing else is established I want to show how damaging and reprehensible it is to express an opinion about someone unless it is based on truths and facts that's all.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Linda H;
Why would their ablility or inability to update thier website have a bearing on whether or not they are good breaders? My uncle is a very saught after architect but his website is horrible and out dated. Does that mean he can't design a house?
As this thread goes along if nothing else is established I want to show how damaging and reprehensible it is to express an opinion about someone unless it is based on truths and facts that's all.
It does not mean he can't design a house... But, it means he is losing alot of business to someone that has a better website. Keeping up with the times is important, because in todays world majority of things are done online. You have 1 chance to impress. If someone is not impressed with your site, they will not call. End of story. They will go somewhere else. When this is our only source of information, I know I would do my best to keep the website as current as possible.

Let me give a different example... My company is a DJ company, we do many weddings and other events... If we had a site full of old pictures, old equipment, and videos of people with mullets doing the macarena, we would never, ever get a call, and people woudl say we suck, even if we don't. So, by keeping up with the times and updating the most valuable piece of information you have, many of these negative comments would not be there.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:00 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Linda H;
Why would their ablility or inability to update thier website have a bearing on whether or not they are good breaders? My uncle is a very saught after architect but his website is horrible and out dated. Does that mean he can't design a house?
As this thread goes along if nothing else is established I want to show how damaging and reprehensible it is to express an opinion about someone unless it is based on truths and facts that's all.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the design of their website which actually isn't that bad. It's their content. Let me demonstrate...

If I had a car dealership and put up a web site that announced:
We sell Elite Family Cars!!
Our cars never break down, they are of a very reputable make but you don't need to know what that is because it does not concern you, our mechanic does not have to certify our cars to know they are safe and reliable, they just are because they come from our lot, our cars will drive your children to school, our cars will fill themselves up with gas when you' don't feel well, you won't have to deal with any of the "normal car stuff", our cars will save your kitten from the tree because those are the kind of elite cars we sell...

Does that give you an idea? In dog and doberman terms, that's exactly what their site looks like to experienced people.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
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zucker hit the nail on the head, said it way better than I did.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:10 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Personally I am done with this thread as it looks to be just someone looking for an argument instead of a constructive conversation. Maybe he is just as uneducated as this Elite guy with no intention to learn, who knows. Just seems strange to me he is offering up everything but the correct website on that last post.

Trying to compare architech websites and websites to sell dobermans is like comparing apples and oranges. I'm going to go play somewhere else.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker View Post
This has absolutely nothing to do with the design of their website which actually isn't that bad. It's their content. Let me demonstrate...

If I had a car dealership and put up a web site that announced:
We sell Elite Family Cars!!
Our cars never break down, they are of a very reputable make but you don't need to know what that is because it does not concern you, our mechanic does not have to certify our cars to know they are safe and reliable, they just are because they come from our lot, our cars will drive your children to school, our cars will fill themselves up with gas when you' don't feel well, you won't have to deal with any of the "normal car stuff", our cars will save your kitten from the tree because those are the kind of elite cars we sell...

Does that give you an idea? In dog and doberman terms, that's exactly what their site looks like to experienced people.
Excellent post. It's a great analogy to every BYB/shady greeders' claims and so very relevant.

I'd also like to add, OP: If their practices have not changed since 2008, why should their reputation?
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what can you do.... love them and bake them cookies.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
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seems some are using the any publicity/advertising is advertising. which it basically is, but, , it will backfire on those who 'use' this to profit from the flesh of others. bad juju on you.

advertising for a bad thing is good, more find out about the bad thing and why it is bad. good 'news' travells fasssssssssssstttt. bad 'news' even faster.

advertising for a good thing..............................hmmmm, does any of this make any sense?

nevermind.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I am the type of person who gives everyone the benifit of the doubt. And also the type person that makes sure I'm on the same page as everyone else before I start speaking.
As you just mentioned (in a rather condesending manner) I did mention the website Elite Family Dogs in my orginal thread, I mearly wanted to make sure we were talking about the same breeder.
Here is what I know:
* We contacted and visited Elite Family Dogs 4 years ago.
* The facility a large property that they lived and oporated their business
from.
* It was clean and well kept and the dogs were treated with love and
respect.
* We were interviewed by the owner (who is rather eccentric and dirrect).
* We were given more than 20 some names of customers half of which were
repeat customers.
* We were given a thick book of veterinary history and medical history.
* We were shown two sets of parents and shown puppies from both pairs.
* I contacted 6 of those people 3 of which used thier dogs as assist dogs.
* We purchased our puppy and as I described in the first thread is the kindest
most intelligent and healthy dog I have ever had.
Those facts are all based on first hand experience, not opinion.
Not once did they try to hide, or decieve us. Or talk us into buying thier dogs.
They are just regular hard working folks with kids trying to make a living from what they love.
I don't know good standards from bad or show ring dogs from working dogs.
I grew up on a farm and I have had AKC and mutts. So I know there are good and bad in either case.
My point to posting here I saw a whole lot of people making up their minds that these people were crooks, dishonest, and thieves. And it wasn't based on facts.
I am a small business owner myself and know that slander is free and doesn't have to be based in truth just opinion. But it can ruin lives non the less

*
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Sorry, D0berman, but no one here is going to agree with you that Elite Family Dobes is somehow a good and reputable breeder. It is clear to anyone with even a cursory amount of doberman knowledge, that they are NOT reputable. In order for a breeder to be reputable, they must title and health test their dogs, amongst other things.

Fortunately, this thread - like the other one about Elite on this forum - will be cached and will pop up whenever someone googles their name, so hopefully others will be led here and can read why Elite Family Dobes is a poor choice if you're looking into buying a doberman puppy.

No one is criticizing your dog, D0berman - like RFR said, all dobes are great dogs, but not all breeders are good breeders. I hope you stick around this forum, because there's a lot to learn here.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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That's one of the big differences right there - responsible breeders aren't "trying to make a living" on the backs of their dogs. We have jobs to support ourselves AND the dogs. We don't expect them to support us. It COSTS a lot of money to breed responsibly. We don't expect a return.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D0berman View Post
I am the type of person who gives everyone the benifit of the doubt. And also the type person that makes sure I'm on the same page as everyone else before I start speaking.
As you just mentioned (in a rather condesending manner) I did mention the website Elite Family Dogs in my orginal thread, I mearly wanted to make sure we were talking about the same breeder.
Here is what I know:
* We contacted and visited Elite Family Dogs 4 years ago.
* The facility a large property that they lived and oporated their business
from.
* It was clean and well kept and the dogs were treated with love and
respect.
* We were interviewed by the owner (who is rather eccentric and dirrect).
* We were given more than 20 some names of customers half of which were
repeat customers.
* We were given a thick book of veterinary history and medical history.
* We were shown two sets of parents and shown puppies from both pairs.
* I contacted 6 of those people 3 of which used thier dogs as assist dogs.
* We purchased our puppy and as I described in the first thread is the kindest
most intelligent and healthy dog I have ever had.
Those facts are all based on first hand experience, not opinion.
Not once did they try to hide, or decieve us. Or talk us into buying thier dogs.
They are just regular hard working folks with kids trying to make a living from what they love.
I don't know good standards from bad or show ring dogs from working dogs.
I grew up on a farm and I have had AKC and mutts. So I know there are good and bad in either case.
My point to posting here I saw a whole lot of people making up their minds that these people were crooks, dishonest, and thieves. And it wasn't based on facts.
I am a small business owner myself and know that slander is free and doesn't have to be based in truth just opinion. But it can ruin lives non the less

*
Stick around and learn... Grab some popcorn and let's see what the show turns out to be.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D0berman View Post
Not once did they try to hide, or decieve us. Or talk us into buying thier dogs.
They didn't have to do all of that, you were easily duped from the start.



Quote:
Originally Posted by D0berman View Post
They are just regular hard working folks with kids trying to make a living from what they love.
Well there is a major red flag, not to mention that they refer to their breeding program as a business. Hard working, honest, ethical people would go out and get real jobs instead of making a living off of their dog's uterus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D0berman View Post
I don't know good standards from bad or show ring dogs from working dogs.
We are TRYING to educate and inform you on this but you are not listening.
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