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Analyzing a Kimbertal Pedigree

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51K views 229 replies 65 participants last post by  melbrod  
#1 ·
So, forgive my low tech ways, I need to link to this pedigree, but if someone more talented than I wants to put up an image of it, for easier reference, that would be great.

The pedigree I'd like to discuss is here, for the puppies sired by "International Champion Imperator Iran di Altobello."

Recently, we had a claim made that the ancestors of this particular litter were "100% champions."

So, what I'd like to do is take novices through an easy explanation of how that may or may not be necessarily true.

Since I'm very unfamiliar with Euro titles, I'm hoping some of our folks across the pond who work and show in Euro venues will chime in on some of these so-called "titles" and on the legitimate titles.

First, though, I want to call Kimbertal out on what seems to be VERY misleading to puppy buyers: Why do you post only the sire's half of the pedigree under each puppy?

Why?

For those dazzled by Kimbertal, take another look at that scanned image: that is only the ancestry of the sire of each litter, not the dam.

Did the female not contribute 50% of the genetic material for each puppy?

Why are you, Kimbertal, not disclosing the ancestry of the mother under each puppy's picture?

Moving on to another available litter, I see this one is sired by "Champion Apollo Royal Castelberg."

Now, the posted pedigree for this sire is the dog, Sant Kreal Tsenturion, whose titles were called into question here on DT, before, and SOME corrections made to his page, by Kimbertal, following that.

But here is a question: Since Kimbertal reportedly does not show, work, or title their own animals, and since "Champion Apollo Royal Castelberg" is sired by their imported stud and a totally untitled bitch...how did "Apollo" become a "Champion"?

What sort of "Champion"? In what venue? On what continent?

Euro folks, can you help me out with the other titles?

I'd like us to go thru at least a few generations on the listed pedigrees and explain why or why not the "hype" means anything, for the novices.

I truly think they don't understand why the really knowledgeable Doberman folks laugh up their sleeves at Kimbertal--not saying that's nice or right, it's just a fact that the folks who have really competitive, athletic, good dogs would not look twice at anything of Kimbertal lines.

I'd like the novices to get a feel for WHY, and more importantly, how that relates to the quality of a pet they might purchase, and to the breed overall.
 
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#28 ·
tnh317 said:
Dankan
Image
Click to expand...
There are some nice European dogs in these pedigrees, but since most of the nice dogs are in the 3rd generation or farther from the puppy, they won't have as much direct impact on the puppy. Plus, this is only HALF the pedigree - the bitch contributes just as much and we don't have a clue as to who the bitches are. Dankan's pedigree is not complete either, as his grandsire should be "Come As You Are (fill in the blank)". "Come As You Are" is a kennel name, not the complete name. There are numerous mispellings of various names - not sure if they are actuall mispellings, or real names of dogs that are meant to resemble the names of famous European dogs.

I'm not an expert on reading European pedigrees by any means, but I do know that winning a class in Bosnia doesn't carry near as much prestige as winning at the IDC Championships. Most likely it's similar to comparing a win at our International KC shows versus the AKC. Additionally, Dankan is 9 years old and his highest listed conformation rating came from the Young (Youth) dog class.
 
#3 ·
RedFawnRising said:
For those dazzled by Kimbertal, take another look at that scanned image: that is only the ancestry of the sire of each litter, not the dam.

Did the female not contribute 50% of the genetic material for each puppy?

Why are you, Kimbertal, not disclosing the ancestry of the mother under each puppy's picture?
Click to expand...
Now I am definetly a novice at reading these things, but I swear it looks like I am reading sire and dame... Correct me if I am wrong...

Going off Tnh first pedigree of Iran, granted not all are CH, but I see 2 names then 4 names then 8 and 16?

Lost I am....
 
#5 · (Edited)
The pedigrees I posted are for the studs only to help with the clarification on the titles.

The link RFR posted that is the page where they advertise the puppies. If you look closely you will notice they only advertise the sire's portion of the pedigree.

As I've posted before the reason for this is because they import males (often second hand and not directly from the breeders) and then they breed them to just about every brood bitch in their kennels and in their breeder homes. I would assume this marketing ploy benefits them in multiple ways 1) I'm guessing many of the bitch's pedigrees are less than stellar 2) they could have 10 litters on the ground out of 1 stud but they can advertise it as 1 litter.
 
#4 ·
Tnh, you rock, thanks.

Jonesy, you are seeing the sire and dam of the SIRE of each litter of puppies.

So, that is papa's pedigree.

The mama's pedigree isn't listed anywhere that I can find, on Kimbertal's site, nor even the NAME of the dam.
 
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#229 ·
RedFawnRising said:
Tnh, you rock, thanks. Jonesy, you are seeing the sire and dam of the SIRE of each litter of puppies. So, that is papa's pedigree. The mama's pedigree isn't listed anywhere that I can find, on Kimbertal's site, nor even the NAME of the dam.
Click to expand...
Just going to make a little suggestion for why it might be that way. Maybe it's because so many of the females are in a "breeders contract", & once the 2nd litter is weaned, the female is yours, & you get to name her yourself..? Just going by personal experience, as my parents got into a breeder's contract & it was brilliant! We bred her to Robear, & I think we had 1 litter of Caesars, & the third breeding was free, & Kimbertal got the best 3 puppies, paid for them, & we were allowed to keep or sell the rest of the puppies ( & Jessie always had 7-9 pups each litter! )! That's the one we kept,"Rooster Cogburn" ( yeah, I know, only my Dad would name his Rottie that, but my Dad was funny like that, lol 🤣! )! Anyways, I've always been impressed with the Kennel, but I was working there when Bob, Sr. was still running it, then again in '94, when Bobby,Jr was running it, & Ann Grimm had started working as the manager of obedience & boarding . IDK why anyone would look at the gorgeous heads on those Dobes & Rotties, & be "unhappy" with the puppy you got ! Do your due diligence before you get a breed that doesn't do well in a crate or expected to spend the day indoors, without being trained!
 
#7 ·
I am not trying to support these guys I really am curious about reading these things I understand that those are all the sires

but this is one of Irans pups, and it looks like both are listed as well?
Or are you talking about that the pups show sire and dam, but no where on the site shows mom's pedigree?
Image
 
#11 ·
I've never been to their site before and I find it intersting that even thogh they have a "guarantee" it does not cover any puppies that have been spayed or neutered.
 
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#18 · (Edited)
Going tru the pedigrees, its only showing european show lines, no working titles, may be they put a certificate on it, but none of these we ever saw on trials, there is some dutch in it, 'd Aracelli, beautiful dogs, but not for sport, the man's who have this kennel don't breed any more, the kennel was close to my place, they lived in rotterdam. Wantij also dutch, Jivago is in lot of pedigrees, I have owned a Jivago son. Neerlands stam a dutch kennel as well.

I saw prices of 2500 usd, well that is a lot of money, I think you can buy these lines much cheeper, included shipping cost here in Europe :)
 
#21 ·
elly said:
Going tru the pedigrees, its only showing european show lines, no working titles, may be they put a certificate on it, but none of these we ever saw on trials, there is some dutch in it, 'd Aracelli, beautiful dogs, but not for sport, the man's who have this kennel don't breed any more, the kennel was close to my place, they lived in rotterdam. Wantij also dutch, Jivago is in lot of pedigrees, I have owned a Jivago son. Neerlands stam a dutch kennel as well.

I saw prices of 2500 usd, well that is a lot of money, I think you can buy these lines much sheeper, included shipping cost here in Europe :)
Click to expand...
Elly, thank you. I'm really glad to see you here, and chiming in.

Keeping in mind that I'm trying to get a message across to complete novices (who are mostly what Kimbertal sells to), can you take a couple of Iran's parents, and go over what the "lettters" after their names mean?

And why some of it is meaningless?

Like, for instance, I know it's been said nearly any dog can earn the "Int. Ch." title, in one weekend, it can just sort of "be bought" by sending the dog in with a handler.

I'm wondering if, among all the other Alphabet Soup, there are other "bogus" titles listed on his pedigree.

tnh317 said:
Elisir Dax di Altobello

Braveheart
The Roadhouse
Aruff Ranch
IdleWild
Triple C
DVR Kennels
K-Nine Dobermans
Ebay Classifieds
3B Dobermans
Super Dobie Pups
Click to expand...
The reason, in case some are missing it, that tnh317 is posting all these google hits is these are rather infamous and disreputable breeders, who display poor behavior and ethics when it comes to breeding programs, and they are all backed/originated/associated with Kimbertal lines.
 
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#25 ·
Thanks Redfawnrising for starting this thread - quite informative and very eye opening! I hope others are taking notice to this information!
 
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#29 ·
the selling point is that the puppies have some of that super Euro champion secret sauce in them and that's all that matters - to the unknowledgable buyer. Its like trying to sell a new car badged as a Taiwan super econo "Squeeze", but bragging that the company is twice removed co-owned through a joint venture by BMW (and by inference has BMW 'DNA') :rolleyesww:
 
#33 ·
Okay, folks who've not had experience reading pedigrees, look at what tnh posted above.

The bolded name of the animal in the middle at the far left is the puppy whose pedigree this is, "Heidi."

Her sire is listed directly above her, her dam below. (In other words, her mother and father).

From there, trace her ancestors back, and you will see that the half of the pedigree that Kimbertal traditionally not post is, well, full to the max of untitled dogs.

Waaaay back in the fourth generation there are a total of two titled dogs. That's it. That's pretty pathetic.

And, I saw a photo of the "Marvel" dog, who is Heidi's grandfather, on Kimbertal's site, and in addition to being coarse, he is very, very overweight and far out of standard.

This is the danger, when generations and generations of animals are bred, without being competed at all--the animals get farther and farther away from the breed standard, with no outside objective evaluation of breeding stock.
 
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#34 · (Edited)
This place has a couple pedigrees up that show both sire and dam of puppies:

Idlewild Doberman Kennel*** Heid

But it is the only place of all of those links I found to show a pedigree with the dam in. I believe Kimbertal specifically warn their puppy-buyers not to post the dam's pedigrees up as they are pure CRAP and they know it! It is purely a marketing ploy. Ignorance is bliss for the people who buy from ktal.

You say there are only two titles in the 4th generation on the dam's side there, RFR...but HO! What is this? Possibly a single CD?

Right on. </sarcasm>

(not sure if I am seeing that right lol!)
 
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#36 ·
Casandra said:
...You say there are only two titles in the 4th generation on the dam's side there, RFR...but HO! What is this? Possibly a single CD?

Right on. </sarcasm>
Click to expand...
Oh, oops, missed the CD.

Okay, so the puppy's gr, gr, great grandfather learned to heel and sit.

Oh, that makes it all alright, then :)
 
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#35 · (Edited)
Ch = Champion
CAC = Certificat d'Aptitude au Championat , Champions card The dog who win this price, is the best male or female of the day, you need 4 of these cards to be dutch champion

CACIB = Certificat d'Aptitude au Championat International de Beaute International Champion. This titel can only be won in the open class, workingdogclass or championclass. Four of thes cards, get in three different countries. one of these countries must be the land of origin of the breed, or te country where the dog lives, under three different judges, only this can give the right of the title International Champion

BOB best of breed.
IPO = working title
IDC sieger, German show sieger, kind of CACIB
 
#38 ·
Thanks Elly, that helps.

So, on the one sire, where they say "2X CACIB," then that means that the animal did NOT complete the requirements for Int. Ch., correct?

I'm asking, because they list on this page that Iran is an "International Champion," but then say he's earned CACIB only twice.
 
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#37 ·
For anyone who is skeptical about our opinions of Kimbertal here on DT, look around the 'net a bit. You can visit any Doberman or Rottweiler forum out there, and the negative experiences, comments, and opinions will vastly outweigh the few positive ones. For a place producing 40+ litters a year (maybe even substantially more), they're bound to produce a good dog from time to time; however, it's important to remember that those dogs are the exceptions to the rule.

A quick search resulted in these websites (none of which are even remotely in favor of Kimbertal's practices):

dobermans: anyone here know anything about this pla
Kimbertal Kennels - Page 2 - Rottweiler Discussion Forums
Has anyone ever bought a rottweiler puppy from Kimbertal Kennels in PA? | Official Rottweiler Blog
Kimbertal Kennels Neda Yarnell Review | Rip-off Report #367087
Has anyone had any experience of Kimbertal kennels? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
kimbertal investigative news story!! - Rottweiler Discussion Forums
Breeders In NY, NJ or PA [Archive] - Rottweilers Online
 
#42 ·
Sure, do it, that would be interesting.

Yarnell is the name of the owner,btw, Neda and Robert, I believe.
 
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#41 · (Edited)
Yes, he probably won twice a show, with a CACIB title, you can also get a reserve CAC, The second male or female of the day can earn this, you also need 4 cards of this, the same for CACIB there is also a reserve CACIB this will be given to the second male or female, if the winner is allready champion.

Looking at the page you link too, I think he have twice won the CACIB and got the reserve twice that make 4 cards, so he will be champion, the working titles, means not so much, mostly they put a certificate, under a judge they know very well, own field, own decoy. If you really looking for a sportdobermann, well you can better research pedigrees of dogs working on the field, beside that I don't think its healthy for the dog as well, may be you like it a big boned dobermann, but think that that kind of bodies isn't so good for the work, there much more changes on injuries.
 
#43 ·
elly said:
Yes, he probably won twice a show, with a CACIB title, you can also get a reserve CAC, The second male or female of the day can earn this, you also need 4 cards of this, the same for CACIB there is also a reserve CACIB this will be given to the second male or female, if the winner is allready champion.
Click to expand...
So, just to make sure I'm not confused, it sounds like you're confirming he did not in fact meet requirements to advertise the title of "International Champion," given he only won twice, right?

I'm just going by what Kimbertal has listed on his site, and I suppose that could be inaccurate, either in favor of, or against the dog's titles, but this is what they themselves are advertising, and it is conflicting information.
 
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#46 ·
Ooooh, okay. I didn't realize you were saying reserve wins counted, too.

Alright, cool. Like I said, just trying to suss out verifiable facts here.

Appreciate the help.
 
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#47 ·
Should be a "sticky"

While there never was - and never will be - a snowball's chance in hell that I'd purchase a dog from Kimberhell, I want to thank RFR for this thread. Super educational and informative. Not only are you educating those new to the breed, you're teaching others how to educate others.

Does that make any sense?

This thread should be made a "sticky" in Doberman Related and Breeders.

RFR - DT is lucky to have you. Seriously. Some of us are learning... :)
 
#50 ·
That happens this side o' the pond, too :)

Aphrodite, call 'em up and ask 'em.

They have a sales staff manning the phones, ready and waiting!
 
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#52 ·
It really has to be stressed that the level of difficulty to achieve championships varies greatly from country to country. One really needs to look into it to find out if there was any degree of difficulty in a particular country. And I guess one would also have to consider whether the degree of competition is of much quality in that particular country as well.

I belong to an internet group that discusses responsible dog breeding. I remember several years back there was a woman on there who was from Yugoslavia, as I recall. I hope I've got the country right. She had a maltese or a bichon, don't recall for sure, but something small and fluffy. She was quite adamant that this dog of hers was of poor quality, she had studied the breed standard and had learned the hard way about buying from less than reputable breeders. Nevertheless, she was also one of those people that wanted to learn how to show dogs to prepare herself for the day when she'd have a quality specimen of her breed. I recall her discussing that the the bar was set pretty low in her country for quality dogs and that championships could be considered "cheap", or IOW easy to come by. She talked about how the judges would compliment her dog on its faults!

That's why people say a championship isn't a championship. I've shown in Canada and the US. Obviously, it's no secret that it's much more difficult in the US than in Canada to achieve a championship. From what I gather from my reading, it's even harder in the UK and I kind of think the same for Australia although I don't have personal experiences there. Similarly, I think there are countries where it's pretty easy. If it was so damned difficult in some of these eastern European countries, why would then they be selling them off over here?
 
#67 · (Edited)
MaryAndDobes said:
. If it was so damned difficult in some of these eastern European countries, why would then they be selling them off over here?
Click to expand...
It's not difficult in Russia to finish CH, the dog can get CAC ,CACIB without competion, after a couple CAC ,CACIB he'll be Champion. I've read from russian breeders that only lazy didn't finish. The Title Champion doesn't mean a lot.
Pictures of Apollo Royal Castelberg when he lived in Cerbia and from Kimbertal. I feel really sorry for him ( if its the same dog, for me he doesn't look the same)
His dame is Akuna Matata de Grande Vinko, her another son is famous Fedor del Nasi.
 

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#53 ·
I was certainly no expert on canine pedigrees, when we began our search for a reputable doberman breeder to develop a relationship with, when we began our quest for a doberman.

A nurse friend of my husbands recommended Kimbertal. She had 2 males (red flag), over-sized (red flag) and to me personally (red flag), no one was home all day.

So, knowing no one who breeds, I began my Google search.

It was evident, even to my untrained eye, in a very short time that Kimbertal was criminal in their breeding practices. Not much subtle about the wreckage in their wake.

And as someone already stated on this thread..all the characteristics of Kimbertal that qualify them as being absolutely unacceptable as a breeder, we harp on day and night on DT.

Good on you, RFR, for starting this thread. You are the best of all possible good eggs!! The EverReady Bunny for animal advocacy!!
 
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