Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums banner

Pedigree Research

21K views 147 replies 28 participants last post by  von Cosack Dobermann 
#1 ·
I'm moving this comment of Renee's over from the thread about Inaqui,because I think it brings up some things that need to be discussed on a far wider scale than just Inaqui.

Renee said:
"Triple Threat died of bloat complications at 5 (heard from reliable source). His daughter from another dam lived to be 12, no DCM. He did bred with Lemils Solitaire (died at 2, blood poisoning after pregnancy complications source dobequest) and a pup unfortunate died young at 4 from DCM (cyberdobes). Solitaire was sired by Firecracker."

I clearly remember the owner of the D Triple Threat dog posting on Cyberdobes in years past that Tripp died of vpc's caused by bloat. The only problem was Tripp died something like NINE MONTHS after he bloated!

Yes-when a dog torsions, toxins are formed that can cause vpc's, and resulting sudden death. This is one major reason why bloat is so deadly. But once those toxins are assimilated by the body, the dog's heartbeat returns to normal rhythm. This occurs within a few days-if the dog lives through the 4-5 day period after a bloat episode, they're out of the woods.

IOW-it's absolutely preposterous to make a claim that vpc's which killed a dog are due to a bloat episode so far in the past.

Renee then mentioned the young 4 year old Tripp son who died of DCM-this dog was owned by a very close friend of mine. I can tell you that one of his littermates, a bitch, jumped up in the air for a ball one day-then fell to the ground dead. No necropsy was done-the death was excused as being "ruptured spleen". Anyone buy that?????

This is the problem with "reliable sources'...sometimes they're not quite as reliable as any of us might think, or hope. It's EXTREMELY difficult to the point of being impossible at times for anyone to get credible information about a dog's death. I think the longer you're involved in this breed, and the better people know you, the better the chances you have of getting accurate information...but none of us really know for sure in the absence of a legitimate necropsy report.
 
See less See more
#3 · (Edited)
Great idea, it will never happen, the clubs don't care (akc) it's a business, you know Profit!! Maybe if they charge something for the association, that will ring a bell.
Murrey, you know all so well that the breeders will run and hide on this topic, not all but a fair share. I can name names from the 70's (dogs)that plenty of people knew were Dangerous dogs but they were still out there being bred. Von.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Murrey, you know all so well that the breeders will run and hide on this topic, not all but a fair share.
Yeah, some would, but not all.

As I said, I think the longer you've been around and the better you're known, the more accurate information you're likely to acquire. You also have to know what questions to ask-some people won't outright lie, but also won't volunteer information. And it really helps to know how some of these diseases "work", so you can set your bullshit detector and recognize whether the information you're given is likely to be true.

Another thing about pedigree research that newbies can get hung up on is what dogs died of-instead of what they may have produced, which I think is far more relevant. A dog might not have died of DCM, only because something else killed it first-but they still had the ability to pass on whatever gene(s) might result in DCM to their offspring.

Ron made a point in the Inaqui thread about a well used stud dog will produce EVERYTHING eventually-and I agree that's true. The big question is how often did they produce it. Many of the diseases we worry about could turn out to be polygenic, caused by a number of different genes. Could be a popular stud dog carries an unusually high number of those genes, so he produces it frequently, with a wide variety of bitches.

It's a bad situation. I wish pedigree research could be as simple as it sounds on the surface, and SHOULD be. But I think we're peeing in the wind most of the time, and will be until there are dna tests for some of these diseases...and when that day comes, we'll have problems on an even larger scale to worry about.
 
#6 ·
I wonder when bloat was first medically recorded, and in what breeds.From my own personal research, apperently very long ago,there was a recorded litter born with natural bob tails but alas, it was lost and out of Louis Dobermann's hands,he wanted it short but others had their own 'foundation' in mind. Point being, lets say a genetic code emmerges for DCM and Bloat, this makes the Doberman 'clear' ,now the Genepool shrinks,which may raise inbreeding percentages,do we re-introduce another breed and start again? It formed the Shiloh Shepherd and Olde English bulldogge, just bred to the point where the health issues became ridiculous and someone got fed up and bred back to the 'original' where there were less health issues. I don't mean to cause a flair btw, just open minded thinking.
 
#8 ·
The Dalmation people had trouble with bladder stones in the breed. They were found to be from a genetic cause. They opened the stud books to *ONE* black and white pointer, outcrossed to him, and then took the clear offspring to clear Dals.
I know this might anger people, but I have come to the conclusion that most Doberman people are *so afraid* of losing *type* that they would rather continue on without actually finding the cardio gene. It has been brought up in the past, I believe it was in the '60 to open the stud books to try to attain better health. It was completely shot down by the parent club.
 
#11 ·
Theres an old saying by breeders from the past...act of God!!! I hate that saying, as I said before I know breeders who knew the questions posed had validity but turned their heads. I know personnally from a pup I purchased when I first moved to Fla. at 6 months the pup had to be put down, the sire was a akc Ch. and was used alot and very well known. There were get dropping dead all over the country and there were plenty more just like him. I've never been totally sure what reputable breeder means, Ha. The term BYB years ago meant a breeder who didn't participate in shows but there was no reputation of greed and lack of knowledge in their breedings. Funny how terms and sayings change over the years, one thing thats the same is with holding info that could better the Dobermann, but whether your a modern day BYB or a so called reputable breeder, lack of knowledge, greed or lying is all the same, it hurts our BREED. Von.
 
#13 ·
Interesting topic. I have to admit, that if I ever look for a puppy, it will be totally overwhelming.

Could it be too much of a good thing? Since these issues don't crop up until a dog has sired many offspring already? It sounds silly, but it reminds me of the "in" toy, the "fad"- every kid gets it, then there's some recall and 75 percent of parents in America are saying "oh no little Suzie has three of those!" It's terrible for one owner to have to lose a dog early, but for so many it's just really sad, just from what I've read on here.

As far as BYB/reputable breeders...I think, sadly, it's human nature to have a tenency to get lured into the money/popularity/demand aspect and start on a slippery slope of not being quite as selective/responsible as to what you do with whatever you are producing. We push the envelope and gamble a little more, and sometimes that just doesn't do us well at all I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkevs
#14 · (Edited)
I clearly remember the owner of the D Triple Threat dog posting on Cyberdobes in years past that Tripp died of vpc's caused by bloat. The only problem was Tripp died something like NINE MONTHS after he bloated!

Yes-when a dog torsions, toxins are formed that can cause vpc's, and resulting sudden death. This is one major reason why bloat is so deadly. But once those toxins are assimilated by the body, the dog's heartbeat returns to normal rhythm. This occurs within a few days-if the dog lives through the 4-5 day period after a bloat episode, they're out of the woods.

IOW-it's absolutely preposterous to make a claim that vpc's which killed a dog are due to a bloat episode so far in the past.

So much for my reliable source, I just got 1/2 the story :( This is a dog from the early 90's what could the WHOLE truth of hurt now :(

Thanks for bringing up this topic! I wish there was a "cause of death" requirement. It would not only help breeders when searching for proper mates, but also help with the heart ache Doberman owners are put through. Some breeders I talked to had no problem talking about age and cause of death, many try to keep Dobequest update. They had nothing to hide. Many of the dogs they could be VERY proud of. There needs to be a standard of ethics breeders should live up to.

Something HAS to be done!

Not to many years ago for someone to become a Real Estate Appraiser, they pretty much had to take 3 - 8 hours courses and pass an exam. Then they could go out and establish an opinion of value on someones home. The largest purchases most people make is their home. Then at times the loan officers would twist the Appraiser's arm to hit numbers, non ethical ones have no problem bump up here and there. So where are we now, hmmmm high foreclosure rates.

So to fix up this big problem, the requirements to become an appraiser are raised. There is now almost triple the amount of courses, and a 2 year training period with someone signing of on the reports. The amount of new licenses for Appraisers in Illinois has dropped dramatically! The competition is much less, the arm twisting to hit the numbers is much lower. The guys true to the business have no problem taking the continue education courses. It's for the good of the industry. It's better than having the fly by night appraisal companies take there long time customers.

Also if an appraisal report is created with bad opinion of market value, there is a board they have to answer to and explain there actions. If it happens a lot, they may get suspended, or have their license pulled all together.

Can't help to think if more rules and regulations were required to become a breeder, there would be less competition, and a more consistent high quality of product. Some hoops may be a pain, but the final product is much much better for the breed! If changes can be made to improve the real estate market, it should be able to be done with living beings.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Unless you had a necropsy requirement, then you still have to take the owners word. And even with that one can't predict what a dog may have developed if something else didn't get him first. I think the key is buyer education and if it doesn't smell right then move on. I personally think the good breeder's have enough hoops to jump through now and highly doubt more rules and regulations are the answer. The health issues in this breed are pretty darn complicated and I think many are really trying. Do your homework and then cross your fingers and hope for the best with this breed.
 
#20 ·
I'm also curious to see what other breed could be brought in to ours. Most purebreds have alot of issues (don't they?)

When I was on the search for the hubby's dog, I looked at labs, beagles and viszlas (per his request). I didn't really find alot of health issues with the viszlas...but our girl runs circles around the dober pup...I highly doubt that dobers need that added to the gene pool!!
 
#32 ·
I'm also curious to see what other breed could be brought in to ours. Most purebreds have alot of issues (don't they?)
I don't think there are many that have MORE problems than dobes. German pinscher seems like the obvious answer? Their main problem is cataracts but I think that can be avoided somewhat with CERF testing. (This is all hypothetical of course, it's just an interesting topic :lol:)
 
#21 ·
Pedigree research is next to impossible for us newbies because we don't really know all of the resources that are out there or who we need to talk to/ questions to ask. Its almost impossible!! You have to go into the conversation with breeder/owner ready to weed through all the BS and opinions that will surely come. It really is too much to ask someone not to have some kind of feelings toward a dog they whelped/owned. I think there does need to be some kind of database that all the info is recorded in. It will take all the emotions out of the stories and leave just the facts.
 
#26 ·
I think the whole "bringing in other devastating diseases" is a crock of sh*t. While there are quite a few breeds that are plagued with genetic issues, there are many that have fewer and some that have no consistent problems that are unique to a breed. When it comes to a point where we do have a genetic marker and find (what I honestly believe) is that we have all carrier and affecteds, or all affecteds with some sort of genetic modifier that determines when/if the disease turns "on" the breed will be facing extinction.
If technology is advanced enough I would say go for gene replacement therapy. If not, I would go with selective outcrossing.
Yah, we may have to lose some to gain, but there may be no choice. I really love this breed. Honestly, I love the soul of the animal above all. I am in for the long haul even if we lose the right to crop and dock. If we have to try to tweak the breed to ensure it's survival I am there as well.
 
#27 ·
There are good Dobes out there, in health, structure, and temperament! They are far and few in between, but with better breeding selections based on more accessible data those numbers would begin to grow. The breed can improve. Dobermans are so loving and loyal dogs, they deserve to grow old with their families.

Yes technology would help a LOT. However, the BYB are still going to be doing damage. The borderline breeders are not going to run pricey test. Old school breeders are just going to "know their lines". If there was an organization to govern and enforce standards and ethics, it might go along way.

Breeding needs to be treated like a profession. It is very serious. These dogs touch a lot of hearts. It's not right for a dog who is so willing to please and to work to just be taken from their families at a young age.
 
#29 ·
Can the DPCA do anything? I know that in order to show my horse at recognized shows to earn points for year end and other recognitions as a rider, I have to be not only a GMO member of the USDF but a participationg member - Mac has a lifetime reg with USDF. I also have to be a member of the USEF and he is also lifetimed with them. Then I am a member of the local org. I am also a member of his breed org (KWPN-NA). ANd yes, they are all raising their dues. So people and horses have to have their numbers and yes it is a pain to keep track of all the numbers. You have to send in copies of your USDF and USEF cards when you enter a show.

Is it possible to impliment something like the horse people have? Also many of the warmblood breeds have stud books that are closed. I believe other breeds have something similar but I can't say for sure. You can only breed to approved horses - the KWPN will varify by DNA. There is also a radiograph requirement. Stallions are tested. Mares are inspected. Kinda like the dogs - just bigger :) I am not sure how it totally works as I don't breed horses or dogs. Also I know when your horse dies, you are supose to send back the papers. Also when they are sold the paper go thru KWPN-NA and are stamped and must have peoper signatures of owner of record. Mac is registered with KWPN in the Netherlands but since we live in the US it went thru the North American KWPN.

I have to say it is daunting to do puppy research. If you are lucky you are able to meet some nice, honest people in the breed to help you. Now with the web it makes it easier and harder. More info - but more misinfo too. . .


I don't know if this makes any sense - it is early here!
 
#51 · (Edited)
Along those lines. . . what if show dogs had to have a dpca number to compete in akc events? Although, if dpca is like any other large org I belong to. . . not sure how much good it would do. ALthough the USEF can put sanctions on people and/or horses that test or don't pay - bouce checks and such. . . they publish it in the back of the magizine and on the web site. Kinda fun to see who's in trouble. They can also ban you from show grounds. It is a big deal.
 
#59 ·
I think all these new rules and regulations that are being talked about would be like any other rules/regulations in the world. They will simply make it more difficult for the people already doing it (in this instance, for those already doing the health testing and titling), and the people that already don't do it just won't join whatever organization that makes sure the rules/regulations are followed, and everything will be basically the same. I relate it a little to BSL. It just causes more problems for the responsible people, and the irresponsible people don't change a thing because they don't care.

I guess I just don't see how it would make things better for the breed. I can see where it might make it easier for people looking for good breeders, I suppose, but past that... And still, I know a lot of people that would never in their life pay $1,000+ for a puppy, no matter what you told them.

The problem here is people, plain and simple. They have their own ideas and their own way of doing things, and only they can change their own minds about things. We can try to educate as much as possible, but in the end, its up to the people themselves, and I know a lot of them that are stubborn and pig headed and continue to think what they want to think, even after being told differently.
 
#68 ·
It's possible that the CHIC requirements reflect DPCA's 'recommended health testing' - I didn't look real hard

I do wish however that CHIC would put ages on some of those tests. In my other breed to get a CHIC#, CERF and Thyroid must be done after age 3 to 'count' towards the CHIC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkevs
#70 ·
No one has really answered my question yet. Set health aside (just for a moment)...

What AKC standard would you choose to breed away from?


I'm heavily involved with Real Estate Appraisers, I've watched the legislation come in and try and get a handle on this. You may have seen a lot in the news about house values and high foreclosure rates. I don't see how forming an opinion of value is much different than forming an opinion on which dogs are bred. Both opions are formed based on market data. Dogs vary as much has residential and commercial properties do. Legislation IS NOW WORKING for real estate. There are still bugs being worked out.

The Appraisal issues and Breeding issues are VERY similar.

CCB Player

This video does bring up a point that appraisers being brought in from other area and are not familiar with the market. Similar to say a Cairn Terrier breeder jumping boat to Dobermans. The main point however is poor opinions of value really hurt the market. Poor opinions on breeding is hurting the breed.

I've seen many fly by night companies either go under, or reach the higher standards. The competition for the "good guys" has dropped. There is not joe schomo out there hitting numbers for everyone.

How upset would you be if you bought your home, the appraiser said the value was ok, you had to sell it, and you can't. It was sold above market and now your stuck, or you lose money. That appraiser should have looked at the market, and formed an opinion of value.

I could appraise a house by pulling comps from outside areas, different subdivisions, different bedroom count, I can make it work for the time being. However, that has a much more negative impact as a whole. Those producing quality reports or puppies would not have anything to worry about. They would have better pedigree resources and a better market for there puppies. Who knows some day they may have a better breeding stock to choose from.

Buyers can be dump. Like I said, most get upset if they are trying to buy a home, the largest purchase most make in their life, and it don't appraise out. They usually are not happy with the appraiser who shows with good data that the market is not there to support the value. They are not! The buyer is not going to change as easily as the breeder could.

I'm really curious to know what standards outside of what AKC says is acceptable would someone breed to. A dog too tall, a dog too short, a dog with poor angels, and dog with bad hips??? What is ok to cross to???
 
#78 ·
I'm really curious to know what standards outside of what AKC says is acceptable would someone breed to. A dog too tall, a dog too short, a dog with poor angels, and dog with bad hips??? What is ok to cross to???
Any or all of the above are things that a particular breeder may wish to breed to try to improve if there are a lot of other right things about the dog including a longlived pedigree.

I'm the breeder of one of the 20 BFL-2 (both of his parents are still alive and over 10, and all 4 grandparents lived to be over 10) Dobermans in the Longevity database. I sometimes wish to hell I hadn't given his co-owners permission to neuter him. He is a small male. His angles could be better. He's all I got from that particular combination. He's vWD clear, OFA excellent, normal elbows, thyroid normal, CERF normal, his last Holter and ultrasound were normal but out of date at the moment, and easily passed the TT.

With all he has going for him, he probably should have been bred but never was and never will be. But obviously, there are dogs outside of the standard that should be considered for breeding for various reasons.
 
#74 ·
It always seemed bizarre to me that WAE would be a CHIC# requirement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkevs
#72 ·
Reading through the post already, I wish this would be enforced, or I wish that would be a standard. Something could come in and say those who health test at say 2 year of age, and don't repeat it, but still say they do health test are very different than those who repeat the test. Nothing formal sets those breeders following a higher standard apart from them being able to sleep better at night.

I'd have to look further into it, but the fact that a breeder can only produce so many litters a year is great! The fact that they HAVE to do certain health test is wonderful, dogs don't deserve to go through life with say bad hips. I highly doubt there is a downfall in health issues in those countries. I'm going to look it up to see if I can find any stat reports. Right now, the Doberman breeds life span seems to be decreasing here in the US! If it just became stable, that would be better than the track it is on right now.
 
#73 ·
There's more to breeding than just health testing. Not all breeders that perform health testing do things responsibly, and not all breeders who don't health test EVERY test out there do things irresponsibly. Passing a health test (unless it is a DNA test) is NO GUARANTEE that the dog can't produce the problem.

There's LESS health testing done in the rest of the world - mostly because it's not as easily available and is very expensive. And trust me, purebred dogs in the rest of the world really aren't any 'healthier'.
 
#76 ·
In all honesty the health testing is abit deceiving, if a dog fails the test then he shouldn't be bred. How many have passed and 4 months later drop dead? It feels like panic and doubt to own a Dobermann if you did good research and have trust in the breeder that they know there lines and have trust in their work then lighten up and enjoy your dogs. As a few have said temperament and structure are extremely important, and both are easily tested by viewing and evaluating. Researching a Pedigree is to find out what type of breeding is being done, why does it turn into a Witch hunt? Von.
 
#90 ·
Renee, funny that your expertise is in programing, I'm guessing it's pretty defined. The standard set for Dobermanns is fairly defined but it's the individual breeders adaptation that gives us different "styled" dogs. Some like a larger boned dog some slightly less, both can be within the standard. All the "parts" are accented in slightly different adaptations. The dogs from the 40's are totally different then the 90's and every county and continent has their interpretation. Your looking at the standard as a unified blue print, it's not, and wasn't meant to be. Pure breed animals are mans (peoples) adaptation, not a computers. Health testing has been around for a long time now, however theres more health issues than ever before, with a lot less Dobermanns being born. Is health testing a good idea, yes for some people and for certain LINES. Is it for all LINES, maybe not. That would depend on the breeder and their LONGEVITY with their lines. Sorta like different strokes for different folks, Ha. Von.
 
#91 ·
Great discussion!!!! Not sure how we are going to beat the three big C's {Cardio, Cancer, CVI} that have plagued our breed for as long as I can remember.

I really think bringing in a breed {maybe a greyhound again! but a Male this time}with NO sign of cardio in it's pedigree, may be a start. I don't know.
I do hope to enjoy Doberman for the rest of my life no matter how long their lifespan.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top