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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Questions and Midwest Breeder

Hello,

I apologize if this get's asked way too often, but I need some breeder recommendations. I live in a suburb of Chicago. I have loved dobermans for a very long time and am a responsible dog owner who's done their research and I'm getting ready to buy my first doberman within the next year or so. I am having some difficulty settling on a reputable breeder. There is so much conflicting information regarding certain breeders and the task of choosing a breeder is a bit daunting. I prefer the look of a euro style doberman, but the most important thing is getting a healthy companion from a reputable breeder. I would like a family companion with a temperament suited for possible schutzhund training down the road to keep him stimulated and active. I would not be competing.

I would drive just about anywhere in the midwest (or further if necessary) to get a quality doberman. I know there is a reputable breeder pretty close to me, Bruda. Once again, I do tend to favor the euro style look, though. Does anyone know of a reputable breeder somewhat close to me that breeds quality euro doberman? Seems to be much harder to find the euro breeders.

-What is the difference between pet quality and show quality? Does this have anything to do with the temperament of the puppy? Can I even buy a show quality puppy if I don't plan on participating in dog shows?

-Is Bruda a quality breeder? Any other reputable breeders in the Midwest that can be recommended? Any reputable breeders in the midwest that breed a more euro style doberman?

-What types of questions should I ask breeders when searching for my next best buddy?

Sorry if these questions get asked regularly. With so much information out there, I wanted some definitive answers and advice before unknowingly supporting a glorified backyard breeder.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 05:49 PM
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Welcome to DT. In your shoes I would be talking to Ray Carlisle/Cara dobes

If you search here on DT you can pull up some threads on Bruda and Cara. To my knowledge Bruda did some iffy things a few years ago but maybe things have improved in her breeding program since.
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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-20-2017, 09:49 AM
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Most breeders will want their show quality puppies to go to show homes. It's not that they don't think companion homes will be good for the dog, they just want to be recognized for the exceptional puppies they may produce. Show quality doesn't have much to do with temperament, mostly conformation to the breed standard.

You can have a pet quality puppy that will still turn out to be a beautiful dog. It's important that you tell the breeders that you talk to what you plan to do with your dog, that way they can pick a puppy with a temperament that allows you to live together peacefully. for example, if you just want a companion you wouldn't want to end up with a high drive, hyperactive dog.

Bruda did do some things a little while ago that many don't agree with. They were breeding dogs at quite a young age. Hopefully things have changed there.

You could also contact Melrae Dobermans or Andella kennels (my breeder) out of Michigan. I know Andella won't be planning anything for some time, but Melrae might. Even if they aren't they could help point you in the right direction.

Regardless of who you go with, you want to be asking for proof of health testing, including: OFA hip/elbow scores, CERF eye exam, liver/kidney/thyroid panels, vWD status, 24 hr holter and echocardiogram results. Also seeing titles on both end of the sire and dams name are nice.

Regarding Euro lines, be careful as many BYBs claim their dobes are Euro as a selling point. Many euros also come from puppy brokers, which is something you also want to avoid. You are right that there are very few reputable euro breeders in the states. Your best bet would be to find a working line breeder through the UDC website that is incorporating Euro into their lines. However, these puppies are bred to succeed in sports like Schutzhund, French and Mondio ring. This means that they are going to be very high drive dogs that require a lot of physical and mental stimulation in order to coexist with their family. Basically, not for the faint of heart or a first time dobe owner.

Best of luck in your search, and welcome to DT!
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-20-2017, 05:54 PM
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Hello,

-What is the difference between pet quality and show quality? Does this have anything to do with the temperament of the puppy? Can I even buy a show quality puppy if I don't plan on participating in dog shows?

Show dogs are show quality, pet dogs are not. This can mean many things,
from the slightest ripple in a topline you'll never notice as a pet parent, to a slightly different temperament that means the dog won't enjoy showing... if you choose a quality breeder you won't get a puppy with a problem temperament or that isn't a fit for your family. Show quality pups from reputable breeders go to show homes.


-Is Bruda a quality breeder? Any other reputable breeders in the Midwest that can be recommended? Any reputable breeders in the midwest that breed a more euro style doberman?

I won't comment on Bruda further than stating I have had no personal experience but have heard the same questionable things.
There are however a lot of breeders near you! Check the DPCA breeder referral for Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio.
As for euro style and Midwest, Kansa in Kansas(?) is the only one of the top of my head, they breed a combo of American and Euro Showlines


-What types of questions should I ask breeders when searching for my next best buddy?

We have a few threads on this already, these are a good one that helps you know what are red flags and is a good starting point...
Breeders and Breeding

Is this a reputable breeder’s site? Red flags to watch out for on a website!


Sorry if these questions get asked regularly. With so much information out there, I wanted some definitive answers and advice before unknowingly supporting a glorified backyard breeder.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Hope that helps.... What makes you want Euro more?

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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-20-2017, 11:11 PM
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I'm in the Chicagoland suburbs and there is not a breeder I can think of within a days drive that I would consider a reputable European show type or working line, or a mix of the aforementioned. Heck, I can't even think of any American line breeders I would recommend, off the top of my head.

I agree with what Greenkouki said, I would contact someone like Cara and even if they aren't currently breeding they may be able to point you in a better direction.

Look at the United Doberman Club and keep in mind, just because a breeder is posted there doesn't mean they are necessarily ethical.

UDC Breeder Directory

Same goes for breeders of American line dogs. I, personally, wouldn't purchase a doberman from a couple of the previously mentioned breeders.


Have you visited a Schutzhund club? Do you know what level of training/titling you are trying to achieve and what the club environment is like? What dogs have you owned previously? These answers may help give folks a better idea of what type of temperament you are looking for.


Don't feel badly for asking questions but I will add that using the search function on this forum can bring up a ton of previous discussions that can help to answer some of those (and future) questions for you.

Stay patient. Best of luck!


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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleh60 View Post
I'm in the Chicagoland suburbs and there is not a breeder I can think of within a days drive that I would consider a reputable European show type or working line, or a mix of the aforementioned. Heck, I can't even think of any American line breeders I would recommend, off the top of my head.

I agree with what Greenkouki said, I would contact someone like Cara and even if they aren't currently breeding they may be able to point you in a better direction.

Look at the United Doberman Club and keep in mind, just because a breeder is posted there doesn't mean they are necessarily ethical.

UDC Breeder Directory

Same goes for breeders of American line dogs. I, personally, wouldn't purchase a doberman from a couple of the previously mentioned breeders.


Have you visited a Schutzhund club? Do you know what level of training/titling you are trying to achieve and what the club environment is like? What dogs have you owned previously? These answers may help give folks a better idea of what type of temperament you are looking for.


Don't feel badly for asking questions but I will add that using the search function on this forum can bring up a ton of previous discussions that can help to answer some of those (and future) questions for you.

Stay patient. Best of luck!

Thank you for the information everybody! Very helpful.
I got in touch with Cara this weekend. They were very nice, but unfortunately they informed me they have an extremely long waiting list and aren't taking anymore for pet quality at this time. We chatted for a while. They gave me some good information and were very helpful, but unfortunately they no longer recommend other breeders whatsoever. They don't want to be accountable if someone has an issue with a breeder they recommend. They basically just said to look at the list on DPCA and UDC.


@bleh60 , you're from the same area. I notice many breeders on DPCA and UDC in IL, IN, MI, but you say there is nothing worth while within a days drive from here. Could you recommend a reputable breeder anywhere? I have now expanded my search to pretty much anywhere in the country if necessary. Obviously, someone that is closer would be easier and more convenient to deal with, but a responsible and reputable breeder is my priority.
I'm from the SW suburbs (Orland Park). Do you also know of a reputable training facility in my general area that trains schutzhund/personal protection?

I have never been to a schutzhund club and am pretty new to this in general. I have done enough research to know that these dogs are absolutely not for everyone, and the amount of attention and mental/physical stimulation required. I can absolutely accommodate. I would like to train agility and schutzhund/personal protection, but have no intention of showing or competing.

I did a lot of research on Cara Dobermans and wish I could have ended up with a Cara puppy, but looks like I'm back to the drawing board. I'd appreciate some more top breeder recommendations. Thanks again!
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by drk_h View Post
Thank you for the information everybody! Very helpful.
I got in touch with Cara this weekend. They were very nice, but unfortunately they informed me they have an extremely long waiting list and aren't taking anymore for pet quality at this time. We chatted for a while. They gave me some good information and were very helpful, but unfortunately they no longer recommend other breeders whatsoever. They don't want to be accountable if someone has an issue with a breeder they recommend. They basically just said to look at the list on DPCA and UDC.


@bleh60 , you're from the same area. I notice many breeders on DPCA and UDC in IL, IN, MI, but you say there is nothing worth while within a days drive from here. Could you recommend a reputable breeder anywhere? I have now expanded my search to pretty much anywhere in the country if necessary. Obviously, someone that is closer would be easier and more convenient to deal with, but a responsible and reputable breeder is my priority.
I'm from the SW suburbs (Orland Park). Do you also know of a reputable training facility in my general area that trains schutzhund/personal protection?

I have never been to a schutzhund club and am pretty new to this in general. I have done enough research to know that these dogs are absolutely not for everyone, and the amount of attention and mental/physical stimulation required. I can absolutely accommodate. I would like to train agility and schutzhund/personal protection, but have no intention of showing or competing.

I did a lot of research on Cara Dobermans and wish I could have ended up with a Cara puppy, but looks like I'm back to the drawing board. I'd appreciate some more top breeder recommendations. Thanks again!
I am glad you are doing your research and talking to breeders. I want to ask a few questions, and please don't take this the wrong way. You mention wanting to do both agility AND IPO (Schutzhund)...these are both *incredibly* time consuming sports (and you're looking at your first working breed dog?) Have you done any dog sports before? I do agility (and am on my second agility dog...this one with significantly more drive than my first boy. I have friends that do IPO. I guess I just want to say, and not to discourage you...training a working breed puppy in either of those...it's a LOT. Especially a dog with drive. ESPECIALLY if you haven't done it before. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just think it might be wise to really focus on what you want out of the dog, and what's realistic in terms of time commitment.

All of my friends that do IPO...it's every weekend training, plus several days a week. It's their whole lives, basically, plus, of course, daily training with a high drive dog. Before you pursue a dog for that sport, I think it would be really wise to find a club and talk to people there. Go watch some training and talk to them about their schedule. Meet their dogs. Ask what life is like with those dogs. If you aren't looking to compete...what kind of participation do they welcome?

The same goes for agility. There are certainly agility trials in your area...if that is of interest to you - go to some trials. See if there are people there with some Dobermans. Meet those dogs, ask about them, their temperament, what their training schedule is like, etc.

Agility is a sport you are probably more able to "dabble" in than IPO is. If you are really just looking for a great companion dog that you can play around in some sports with, with a great temperament and good health, I would contact Smack-Dab in Michigan. Be VERY realistic that you aren't looking for a competition dog.


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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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I am glad you are doing your research and talking to breeders. I want to ask a few questions, and please don't take this the wrong way. You mention wanting to do both agility AND IPO (Schutzhund)...these are both *incredibly* time consuming sports (and you're looking at your first working breed dog?) Have you done any dog sports before? I do agility (and am on my second agility dog...this one with significantly more drive than my first boy. I have friends that do IPO. I guess I just want to say, and not to discourage you...training a working breed puppy in either of those...it's a LOT. Especially a dog with drive. ESPECIALLY if you haven't done it before. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just think it might be wise to really focus on what you want out of the dog, and what's realistic in terms of time commitment.

All of my friends that do IPO...it's every weekend training, plus several days a week. It's their whole lives, basically, plus, of course, daily training with a high drive dog. Before you pursue a dog for that sport, I think it would be really wise to find a club and talk to people there. Go watch some training and talk to them about their schedule. Meet their dogs. Ask what life is like with those dogs. If you aren't looking to compete...what kind of participation do they welcome?

The same goes for agility. There are certainly agility trials in your area...if that is of interest to you - go to some trials. See if there are people there with some Dobermans. Meet those dogs, ask about them, their temperament, what their training schedule is like, etc.

Agility is a sport you are probably more able to "dabble" in than IPO is. If you are really just looking for a great companion dog that you can play around in some sports with, with a great temperament and good health, I would contact Smack-Dab in Michigan. Be VERY realistic that you aren't looking for a competition dog.
Thanks for your response! Let me clear this up a bit. I suppose when I say I'd like a dog with a high drive, I mean a little higher than normal FOR A PET. At the end of the day this is a companion and family dog. I'd definitely like to get into training beyond basic obedience, but realistically wouldn't have the time necessary to be competing. I could easily dedicate a few days a week or more after work to training, but definitely not at the level of competing. He would also be doing a lot of walking/runing/hiking with us on a regular basis. I live a pretty active lifestyle in general, and frequent a family property thats 200+ acre nearby with 2 private lakes and tons of land and trails. So you are absolutely right that I'd like a companion dog that I could do some sport with. I don't think I'm looking for a doberman with the highest working drive around, but I do like a little bit more outgoing, confident, and busy dog than the average house pet. The last thing I would want is to do a disservice to a true working dog that should be working/training 5 hours a day. But I definitely don't want a couch potato either. I think I would definitely be more active than the average household looking for a doberman pet, but not on the level of someone who's competing in schutzhund or agility. Hope that helps explain what I'm looking for a little better.

I have looked into Smack-Dab and they are definitely on my list. I seem to have Swift Run out of Kentucky towards the top of my list at the moment. Can anyone chime in regarding their reputation as a breeder? How would their dogs compare to Smack-Dab? I've done a search on the forum and have read good things. I do still prefer that Euro style look, but as I said before, health and longevity from a responsible breeder is priority. Thanks!
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 07:34 PM
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Don't know about Smack-Dab, but Swift Run is a highly recommended breeder. She breeds dogs for work though, so I'd definitely make your intentions clear so she could set you up with the right pup.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 08:55 PM
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Thanks for your response! Let me clear this up a bit. I suppose when I say I'd like a dog with a high drive, I mean a little higher than normal FOR A PET. At the end of the day this is a companion and family dog. I'd definitely like to get into training beyond basic obedience, but realistically wouldn't have the time necessary to be competing. I could easily dedicate a few days a week or more after work to training, but definitely not at the level of competing. He would also be doing a lot of walking/runing/hiking with us on a regular basis. I live a pretty active lifestyle in general, and frequent a family property thats 200+ acre nearby with 2 private lakes and tons of land and trails. So you are absolutely right that I'd like a companion dog that I could do some sport with. I don't think I'm looking for a doberman with the highest working drive around, but I do like a little bit more outgoing, confident, and busy dog than the average house pet. The last thing I would want is to do a disservice to a true working dog that should be working/training 5 hours a day. But I definitely don't want a couch potato either. I think I would definitely be more active than the average household looking for a doberman pet, but not on the level of someone who's competing in schutzhund or agility. Hope that helps explain what I'm looking for a little better.

I have looked into Smack-Dab and they are definitely on my list. I seem to have Swift Run out of Kentucky towards the top of my list at the moment. Can anyone chime in regarding their reputation as a breeder? How would their dogs compare to Smack-Dab? I've done a search on the forum and have read good things. I do still prefer that Euro style look, but as I said before, health and longevity from a responsible breeder is priority. Thanks!
I think any Doberman is going to be higher drive than most of your "average" house pets...you don't need a working line breeder or to ask for a "high drive" dog for that. Dobermans typically aren't couch potatoes. My male is absolutely up for any of the things you ask for and he's probably considered fairly typical - not "high" drive but certainly not a sit around and do nothing dog (unless you want to spend the day watching movies, in which case, he's in for that, too...he has a great off-switch, which you really want). He is multi-titled in sports and is absolutely happy to spend time doing any of that stuff, or hanging out, or whatever.

In terms of the Euro "look" - it is MUCH harder to find reputable breeders of Euro dogs, so just exercise a LOT of caution. Be very clear with what you mean when you say you are looking for an active dog, too...describe exactly what you are describing here, because for a lot of us, that's not really "high drive" but just a typical Doberman
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-23-2017, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Understood. That's great to know. @MeadowCat , your dog sounds a lot like what I'm looking for! Thanks for your responses. I'm going to try and get in touch with Swift Run and Smack Dab and go from there. Any other breeder recommendations are welcome!
Thanks everybody.
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 08:50 AM
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Hello from another fellow Midwesterner! I'm from Iowa

We got our Zuko from Cambria Dobermans in Indiana. I love the look of their dogs, but for our next Doberman I will probably choose another breeder. Zuko has great temperament, very sound and healthy, but there were some communication issues with Jim. Some people may remember my old thread about it. I really like the look of Bruda dogs, too, but have never had experience talking to them. KANSA Dobermans has European lines, though I'm not very familiar with them. I'm hearing great things about Foxfire (not in the Midwest but oh well) so our next may be from there.

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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 09:21 AM
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I just want to weigh in a little here...I'm a big believer in not limiting yourself to the geographical area you are in. Neither of my dogs are "local" to me. Richter came from Canada; Sypha came from Texas. One was a road trip, the other was flown in. I couldn't be happier with my decisions, as both dogs are what I wanted in a dog. It's pretty easy to take a road trip or have a puppy flown to you, and getting the right pup and having a breeder that's the right breeder for you is really worth it. You have a relationship with that breeder for the life of your dog - they are there for you as a support system, a mentor...if you're lucky they become a friend. They answer your questions and support you when you need it. They know their lines and their dogs. I truly believe it's worth researching and being patient until you find someone you "click" with that has the right pup for you.

Can I also ask what it is about the "look" you want? Do you think they have more substance than American dogs? Because you may be seeing young, immature American dogs verses photos of mature American males, for example, when you see show ring pictures. The standards for Euro and American are VERY similar. Sometimes Euros look a bit different in show pictures as they have their mouths open. Their show weight is also a bit heavier.

I'm just trying to narrow down what you are actually wanting, so we can maybe steer you toward the right breeders.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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I just want to weigh in a little here...I'm a big believer in not limiting yourself to the geographical area you are in. Neither of my dogs are "local" to me. Richter came from Canada; Sypha came from Texas. One was a road trip, the other was flown in. I couldn't be happier with my decisions, as both dogs are what I wanted in a dog. It's pretty easy to take a road trip or have a puppy flown to you, and getting the right pup and having a breeder that's the right breeder for you is really worth it. You have a relationship with that breeder for the life of your dog - they are there for you as a support system, a mentor...if you're lucky they become a friend. They answer your questions and support you when you need it. They know their lines and their dogs. I truly believe it's worth researching and being patient until you find someone you "click" with that has the right pup for you.

Can I also ask what it is about the "look" you want? Do you think they have more substance than American dogs? Because you may be seeing young, immature American dogs verses photos of mature American males, for example, when you see show ring pictures. The standards for Euro and American are VERY similar. Sometimes Euros look a bit different in show pictures as they have their mouths open. Their show weight is also a bit heavier.

I'm just trying to narrow down what you are actually wanting, so we can maybe steer you toward the right breeders.
I have since expanded my search to include pretty much anywhere in the country. I don't mind taking a week off to pick up a puppy and get him settled in his new home. I also agree with everything you're saying about the relationship with a breeder. I'm definitely the type to be asking a lot of questions as the puppy grows up, so I want to make sure the breeder is accessible and willing to help.

I suppose what I like about the Euro look....and correct me if I'm wrong... but the Euros seem to have a bigger head and thicker neck, and maybe a little bit bigger chest as well? Some dobermans I've seen have thin, pointy heads and long thin necks. I suppose some of the differences could certainly be attributed to the difference in show weight or age, but I do like the look of the bigger head. Is that something I could expect from a Euro line? I obviously don't care about any of this if it is at the expense of longevity or health of the pup. And I certainly wouldn't go to a breeder that wasn't highly recommended by members here just to acquire these physical characteristics.

I spoke with Smack-Dab on the phone yesterday for a while. Very nice person. She was very helpful and I would be able to get on the list to take home a puppy in about 4 months or so! It is just a coincidence that she happens to be only about an hour away from me. I'm also going to be getting in touch with Swift Run this week to chat and see if there's anything available later this year.

Thanks for the recommendations, @jeitzen . I'll look into them!
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_h View Post
I have since expanded my search to include pretty much anywhere in the country. I don't mind taking a week off to pick up a puppy and get him settled in his new home. I also agree with everything you're saying about the relationship with a breeder. I'm definitely the type to be asking a lot of questions as the puppy grows up, so I want to make sure the breeder is accessible and willing to help.

I suppose what I like about the Euro look....and correct me if I'm wrong... but the Euros seem to have a bigger head and thicker neck, and maybe a little bit bigger chest as well? Some dobermans I've seen have thin, pointy heads and long thin necks. I suppose some of the differences could certainly be attributed to the difference in show weight or age, but I do like the look of the bigger head. Is that something I could expect from a Euro line? I obviously don't care about any of this if it is at the expense of longevity or health of the pup. And I certainly wouldn't go to a breeder that wasn't highly recommended by members here just to acquire these physical characteristics.

I spoke with Smack-Dab on the phone yesterday for a while. Very nice person. She was very helpful and I would be able to get on the list to take home a puppy in about 4 months or so! It is just a coincidence that she happens to be only about an hour away from me. I'm also going to be getting in touch with Swift Run this week to chat and see if there's anything available later this year.

Thanks for the recommendations, @jeitzen . I'll look into them!
One thing to keep in mind is you don't want an OVERDONE chest - a big bubble chest isn't correct or balanced, and the dog isn't properly built. I'm not certain that's what you are looking at, of course, but the standard for each, again, is the same. I think what you are probably seeing is different poses.

Let me try to figure out, for example...does my Richter's head here, to you, look small? (And don't worry, I'm not offended!)

DSC_0047 by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Or here's a few more: Poll: which headshot for Richter?

Just trying to figure out where you are at.

This American bred male, to me, is does not have a thin, pointy neck or head, nor a small chest. Doberman Digest

Whereas, if this is the look you are liking (Some photos from last two shows), these are European showlines, which are different than European working lines. Take a look at dogs more like the Landgraf dogs (Home Page) or other breeders in the United Doberman Club (http://uniteddobermanclub.com/)...they are breeding more for working lines - the "look" is different than show lines.

The problem is that if you are after the "look" of Euro showlines...almost no one is ethically breeding that here in the US. People breeding Euro lines ethically are doing it for working dogs, so they aren't breeding that show line look. If you see big, blocky, overdone "EURO!!!" dogs, almost all of them are importing poor quality Euro dogs. The reason you don't see Euro showlines being bred in the US by good breeders is that they aren't as competitive in the show ring, and they aren't as competitive in the working ring, so there just aren't as many of them. It's harder to find. There are some breeders blending American/Euro, there are Euro lines here that might have more of the look you want (but might be a lot more "dog/drive" than you want or can handle"...that's why it's more complicated when people are interested in Euro dogs.

I hope that makes sense? I'm certainly not trying to steer you away, just trying to help you understand the complications.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 11:48 AM
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Without starting another Euro/American thread

Examples of nice mature American males off the top of my head (some personal preference here- and notice they are all red )





GrCh. Gorrmae's Rock The Rim CGC "Jordan"



Ch. Cha-Rish Star Quest Blu-J's "Hunter"



GrCh. Fidelis Ripcord, WAC "Rip/Ripcord"
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_h View Post

I suppose what I like about the Euro look....and correct me if I'm wrong... but the Euros seem to have a bigger head and thicker neck, and maybe a little bit bigger chest as well? Some dobermans I've seen have thin, pointy heads and long thin necks. I suppose some of the differences could certainly be attributed to the difference in show weight or age, but I do like the look of the bigger head. Is that something I could expect from a Euro line? I obviously don't care about any of this if it is at the expense of longevity or health of the pup. And I certainly wouldn't go to a breeder that wasn't highly recommended by members here just to acquire these physical characteristics.
In my opinion, a lot of European show line dogs' heads are overly large and coarse, and lacking in refinement. The fact that they are almost always shown with their mouths open, tongue hanging out, and flews all over the place, doesn't help matters.*

European show stack and an American show stack are quite different, as well. In a European style stack, the collar is very low on the neck, and the dog is rather stretched out, leaning hard into the collar. In an American style stack, the dog is standing more upright, with the collar close up behind the ears to accentuate the length of the neck. Simply altering a dog's stance can greatly alter it appearance, much like showing the same person slouching and standing up tall with their shoulders back alters the way they look.

*And before people start screaming at me about how wrong I am, please note that I said "in my opinion".
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 12:10 PM
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As far as the whole "European dogs are supposed to be bigger than American dogs" thing that so many Euro BYB and greeders like to trot out, this is a comparison of the FCI and AKC standards.


FCI SIZE AND WEIGHT :
Height at withers : Males : 68 – 72 cm. (26.77 – 28.35 in.)
Bitches : 63 – 68 cm. (24.80 – 26.77 in.)
Medium size desirable.
Weight : Males : about 40 – 45 kg. (88.18 – 99.21 lb.)
Bitches : about 32 – 35 kg. (70.55 – 77.16 lb.)

AKC: Height at the withers: Dogs 26 to 28 inches, ideal about 27 1/2 inches; Bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 1/2 inches. The height, measured vertically from the ground to the highest point of the withers, equaling the length measured horizontally from the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh. Length of head, neck and legs in proportion to length and depth of body.
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 03:08 PM
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I am definitely NOT trying to turn this into "Euro dogs are bad..." not in the least! Just trying to get a sense of what the OP is actually looking for/attracted to to best help him. He seems to be doing a really good job trying to find a good, ethical breeder and I think we can help him out.


DSC_0133
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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One thing to keep in mind is you don't want an OVERDONE chest - a big bubble chest isn't correct or balanced, and the dog isn't properly built. I'm not certain that's what you are looking at, of course, but the standard for each, again, is the same. I think what you are probably seeing is different poses.

Let me try to figure out, for example...does my Richter's head here, to you, look small? (And don't worry, I'm not offended!)

DSC_0047 by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Or here's a few more: Poll: which headshot for Richter?

Just trying to figure out where you are at.

This American bred male, to me, is does not have a thin, pointy neck or head, nor a small chest. Doberman Digest

Whereas, if this is the look you are liking (Some photos from last two shows), these are European showlines, which are different than European working lines. Take a look at dogs more like the Landgraf dogs (Home Page) or other breeders in the United Doberman Club (http://uniteddobermanclub.com/)...they are breeding more for working lines - the "look" is different than show lines.

The problem is that if you are after the "look" of Euro showlines...almost no one is ethically breeding that here in the US. People breeding Euro lines ethically are doing it for working dogs, so they aren't breeding that show line look. If you see big, blocky, overdone "EURO!!!" dogs, almost all of them are importing poor quality Euro dogs. The reason you don't see Euro showlines being bred in the US by good breeders is that they aren't as competitive in the show ring, and they aren't as competitive in the working ring, so there just aren't as many of them. It's harder to find. There are some breeders blending American/Euro, there are Euro lines here that might have more of the look you want (but might be a lot more "dog/drive" than you want or can handle"...that's why it's more complicated when people are interested in Euro dogs.

I hope that makes sense? I'm certainly not trying to steer you away, just trying to help you understand the complications.
Wow, that is one handsome dog you have! I would not complain for a second if I ended up with one like that.
Boris and Bentley from the link to the Euro show lines are a little more what I had in mind if there was a reputable breeder someone knew of that might be a good fit for me. But I certainly wouldn't complain about a dog like Richter! He's definitely a handsome boy.

I think the fact that most of the Euro pics I see do show the mouth open could certainly be a factor. There are some pics of the Euros in that link where the head size doesn't look too far off from the Americans. I think there is definitely a difference between them, but maybe not quite as drastic as I had originally thought.
I think I'm a little more open to either after chatting with you all, just because it sounds like I'll have a much easier time finding a healthy pup from an American style breeder. That being said, if someone recommends a legitimate and reputable breeder for that Euro look, I'd still be happy to check them out.

@greenkouki , those all look so good! Are those all pretty typical mature male American dobes? Some of the pics out there on the internet can definitely be a little deceiving, especially when I get sucked down the rabbit hole looking at old "American vs Euro" threads....which is all a waste of time anyways if no one breeds that look responsibly for health and longevity.
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 03:46 PM
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I think it's also hard to judge the difference in pictures and not the best to make your decision solely based on that.

I've seen some Euro dogs in person that aren't as meaty and hefty as they look (keep in mind many Euro show dogs are shown at what I consider a fat weight to look thicker and more intimidating), and plenty of American bred that have a lot more substance than the arched swan neck show win photos show (and no that's not a dig at the pose).

I'd suggest meeting up with Smack-Dab or looking for upcoming shows and getting some visuals on the kind of dog you prefer/see what you think in person of American show line dogs.

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
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Wow, that is one handsome dog you have! I would not complain for a second if I ended up with one like that.
Boris and Bentley from the link to the Euro show lines are a little more what I had in mind if there was a reputable breeder someone knew of that might be a good fit for me. But I certainly wouldn't complain about a dog like Richter! He's definitely a handsome boy.

I think the fact that most of the Euro pics I see do show the mouth open could certainly be a factor. There are some pics of the Euros in that link where the head size doesn't look too far off from the Americans. I think there is definitely a difference between them, but maybe not quite as drastic as I had originally thought.
I think I'm a little more open to either after chatting with you all, just because it sounds like I'll have a much easier time finding a healthy pup from an American style breeder. That being said, if someone recommends a legitimate and reputable breeder for that Euro look, I'd still be happy to check them out.

@greenkouki , those all look so good! Are those all pretty typical mature male American dobes? Some of the pics out there on the internet can definitely be a little deceiving, especially when I get sucked down the rabbit hole looking at old "American vs Euro" threads....which is all a waste of time anyways if no one breeds that look responsibly for health and longevity.
First, thanks for the compliment Second, mostly what greenkouki and I are trying to show, I think, is that there are quite a few mature males out there that have a lot of nice substance to them. It's easy to see some show pictures where you think the males are spindly or lanky, but you may not know if the dog is young - a lot of males may finish their championship at say, a year old, and they don't look the same as a mature dog. Richter at 1 or 2 looked very different than he does now at almost 5

Here's what I recommend - go to some dog shows to meet some breeders, but also when you contact breeders you can ask to see pictures of their males at older ages, too - four or five years old is a much better picture of what a mature male looks like. And if you get a variety of examples of their dogs you can get a better picture of what they produce.

Hope that helps!


DSC_0133
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 05:30 PM
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If you are up to a day trip, there is a 5 day show in Kalamazoo, MI begins tomorrow and runs through Sunday. I am about 1-1/2 hours from Chicago and Kalamazoo is 45 minutes East of me, so 2-3 hours for you I guess, depending on where you are in Chicago. I am right on the route via I-94 from Chicago to Kzoo. Show is at the fairgrounds: 2900 Lake Street, Kalamazoo, MI.

The Dobe rings are outside on the grass and the schedule is as follows:
Thur: Ring 16 - 1:00pm
Fri: Ring 17 - 12:45pm
Sat: Ring 17 - 9:30am
Sun: Ring 18 - 12:45pm
Mon: Ring 15 - 10:00am

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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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I'm going to try to make some time to stop by on Monday! Thanks, everyone.
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I simply can not recommend Suzan Shipp of J Bar S Dobermans enough. She is outstanding. She not only has a great breeding program but she is there for you every step of the way and one of the most knowledgable breeders I've ever talked too. My girl is going to be 5 months here in the next couple of weeks and Suzan and the rest of the littermates families all still keep a group text going with questions and tips. If you call, she will answer and will answer any questions you have to the best of her ability or she will find an answer for you! Here are some photos of my lovely lady who was born in January 18th. Suzan only does one litter a year but she would 10000x be worth the wait. Our "Kimber" is amazing, so smart and sweet and we really could just not be any happier!
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