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Questionable Breeders

4K views 13 replies 11 participants last post by  dobebug 
#1 ·
Greetings! This is my first post and my first attempt in buying a Doberman. I dont intend to show or breed. This will be our family pet to enjoy and put to work. I've come across two breeders but I'm not so sure of what the normal practice should be. Both breeders dont screen parents for health markers. The rationale is that the previous offspring haven't presented any health issues and that owners who test on their own find everything clear. Previous litters have been generally healthy overall. Is this acceptable? One breeder has been breeding since 97 but for multiple breeds. This is her first Doberman litter. The other breeder works with Dobermans only. They both, however, seem to be big on their dog's temperament. When it comes to price, they are in the $800 to $1000 range.

I've tried highly reputable breeders but the conversation drops when I mention there are no plans to show the dog. There seems to be some arrogance in that sense. Other reputable breeders near me have very long waiting lists going beyond a couple of years.

Lastly, I've applied at the Doberman rescue in VA but its been a few weeks without a response.

Any feedback is appreciated!
 
#2 ·
Hello there! Health testing is so very important. Run, don't walk, from these breeders. Just because 'none of their past litters had any health issues' does not mean anything. A responsible breeder will do extensive health testing on both parents as well as all past lineage. It's quality testing, and some tests are done yearly. This is standard for a reputable breeder, and anyone with this appalling kind of explanation for not doing it should not be allowed to breed their dogs.

We also chose not to show, and Zuko's breeder had no issue with that. He is our family pet and he is healthy, great temperament, and with his long show crop we get a lot of compliments on him. Compared to some of the other Dobes we see, he is much more sound. We know he will be more likely to live a longer, healthier life because of his health testing his parents and his relatives had.
 
#4 ·
Sounds like you're talking to the wrong people. Have you looked at the DPCA breeders list?
DPCA | The Doberman | Breeder Referral I wouldn't believe anyone who says that testing for something (especially something that is common in the breed) is not necessary because "their lines are healthy" without the proof to back it up.

Most puppies will be "pet" puppies.
 
#5 ·
Greetings! This is my first post and my first attempt in buying a Doberman. I dont intend to show or breed. This will be our family pet to enjoy and put to work. I've come across two breeders but I'm not so sure of what the normal practice should be. Both breeders dont screen parents for health markers. The rationale is that the previous offspring haven't presented any health issues and that owners who test on their own find everything clear. Previous litters have been generally healthy overall. Is this acceptable? One breeder has been breeding since 97 but for multiple breeds. This is her first Doberman litter. The other breeder works with Dobermans only. They both, however, seem to be big on their dog's temperament. When it comes to price, they are in the $800 to $1000 range.

I've tried highly reputable breeders but the conversation drops when I mention there are no plans to show the dog. There seems to be some arrogance in that sense. Other reputable breeders near me have very long waiting lists going beyond a couple of years.

Lastly, I've applied at the Doberman rescue in VA but its been a few weeks without a response.

Any feedback is appreciated!
Laziness and ignorance at its finest by these breeders.
Health testing is paramount not just to seeing that singular dogs health but to providing information on the breed as a whole. It proves that dogs health at the time of the testing as well as adds concrete evidence to the claims on a healthy pedigree of any of that dogs puppies, grandpup's, etc...
Just because it looks healthy doesn't mean it is, there are genetic diseases that can be passed on by carrier dogs as well.

This is normal, good breeders have wait lists because they don't breed very often. Some are long, some are short, but waiting at least a year to two years on a waiting list for a litter to be born that will have a pup for you is pretty average.
As GK said, most puppies from a good breeder are sold to pet homes, your not wanting to show is pretty average to what they hear and anyone being turned off there is a weird and red flag to me.

Have you read this thread?
http://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...eeder-s-site-red-flags-watch-out-website.html

Where are you located? and how exactly are you contacting and searching for breeders? (what sites, what do your emails say, etc...)
 
#6 ·
Greetings! This is my first post and my first attempt in buying a Doberman. I dont intend to show or breed. This will be our family pet to enjoy and put to work. I've come across two breeders but I'm not so sure of what the normal practice should be. Both breeders dont screen parents for health markers. The rationale is that the previous offspring haven't presented any health issues and that owners who test on their own find everything clear. Previous litters have been generally healthy overall. Is this acceptable? One breeder has been breeding since 97 but for multiple breeds. This is her first Doberman litter. The other breeder works with Dobermans only. They both, however, seem to be big on their dog's temperament. When it comes to price, they are in the $800 to $1000 range.
I wouldn't even consider a puppy from a breeder who doesn't do at least minimum health testing. That is not normal practice--even very poor bvack yard breeders tend to do some testing and often lie about other testing that they haven't done. One question you should always ask any breeder who claims they don't test because previous offspring haven't presented any health issue is how long they actually follow the offspring.

Breeder number 1 has never had any Dobe litters in the past--so how would that breeder know anything. Breeder number 2 claimng that ownrs who test find nothing wrong--is dishing out hogwash. And I'd bet that no long term records are kept on health of prior litters.

Pricing is very low and probably reflects the things that aren't being done that should be done when breeding.

I've tried highly reputable breeders but the conversation drops when I mention there are no plans to show the dog. There seems to be some arrogance in that sense.
I'd like to know who these "highly reputable breeders" are that think they have nothing except show prospects in every litter. The good breeders KNOW that if they have planned wisely and been lucky that most of their litter will be very nice pets and a seect few with be realistic conformation ring prospects. On average in a litter of 8 you might get two show prospects and the other six will be really nice pets. I don't think you are talking to the right breeders yet.

Other reputable breeders near me have very long waiting lists going beyond a couple of years.
Yes...it's true that most of the better breeders (and not even just the ones near you) have waiting lists. However several members of these forums (and many other puppy seekers) who contact breeders find that if you are specfic and keep in touch and aren't bound irrevicbly to one sex or color that they do work their way up on those lists and sometimes those breeders hear of a litter or puppies from a litter which actually has puppies available will refer you to a difference but good breeder.

Lastly, I've applied at the Doberman rescue in VA but its been a few weeks without a response.
Call or e-mail again. As far as rescues go I recommend that if you haven't heard back from the one you contacted within a week that you should try again. And I'd check on the breeders in Virginia (look the information up on the Dobeman Pinscher Club of America.org website.) These breeders don't breed often but they are breeders who are doing the right thing when they do breed. Try Kathy Davieds, DVM--Jesaran or Wendy Kulp--San Rafael Dobemans. Both are breeders that I'd be happy to deal with if I didn't live across the entire US from them.

Good luck..

Any feedback is appreciated![/QUOTE]
 
#7 ·
I wouldn't even consider a puppy from a breeder who doesn't do at least minimum health testing. That is not normal practice--even very poor bvack yard breeders tend to do some testing and often lie about other testing that they haven't done. One question you should always ask any breeder who claims they don't test because previous offspring haven't presented any health issue is how long they actually follow the offspring.

Breeder number 1 has never had any Dobe litters in the past--so how would that breeder know anything. Breeder number 2 claimng that ownrs who test find nothing wrong--is dishing out hogwash. And I'd bet that no long term records are kept on health of prior litters.

Pricing is very low and probably reflects the things that aren't being done that should be done when breeding.



I'd like to know who these "highly reputable breeders" are that think they have nothing except show prospects in every litter. The good breeders KNOW that if they have planned wisely and been lucky that most of their litter will be very nice pets and a seect few with be realistic conformation ring prospects. On average in a litter of 8 you might get two show prospects and the other six will be really nice pets. I don't think you are talking to the right breeders yet.



Yes...it's true that most of the better breeders (and not even just the ones near you) have waiting lists. However several members of these forums (and many other puppy seekers) who contact breeders find that if you are specfic and keep in touch and aren't bound irrevicbly to one sex or color that they do work their way up on those lists and sometimes those breeders hear of a litter or puppies from a litter which actually has puppies available will refer you to a difference but good breeder.



Call or e-mail again. As far as rescues go I recommend that if you haven't heard back from the one you contacted within a week that you should try again. And I'd check on the breeders in Virginia (look the information up on the Dobeman Pinscher Club of America.org website.) These breeders don't breed often but they are breeders who are doing the right thing when they do breed. Try Kathy Davieds, DVM--Jesaran or Wendy Kulp--San Rafael Dobemans. Both are breeders that I'd be happy to deal with if I didn't live across the entire US from them.

Good luck..

Any feedback is appreciated!
[/QUOTE]


I agree 100% with dobebug. Every litter from reputable breeders has "pet" puppies that aren't intended for the show ring. I also highly HIGHLY recommend Kathy Davieds - I speak from personal experience. She bred the father of my boy, Richter, and I've known her for over 4 years (through email and phone contact). She is very ethical, kind, and breeds lovely dogs with great health, longevity and temperament. I keep her up to date on what Richter does and would not hesitate to get a puppy from her. She would also be a good resource to direct you to other good breeders if she doesn't have breeding plans of her own.
 
#8 ·
I'm going to throw in a word of caution about people claiming to test as well. I ran across a breeder last night claiming to do everything. I emailed for specifics. They pointed me to their website. Red flag #1. The list of tests were a mile long, listed "clear" for every single body system including hair and skin and immune system. :|. I'm doing a bad job of explaining but it was ridiculous. Nowhere did they specify what "testing" had proclaimed the immune system as "clear" I was a clinal research associate so I am quite accustomed to looking at lab work, and tissue samples etc under a variety of microscopes. Labeling something as "clear" without denoting how you determined it is bad form.

Also, they listed hormones as normal. Longevity of lines as 12-18 years. I'd love to see the 18 year old Dobies. Cardiac DCM "clear" and my favorite HIGH LEVEL OF GENETIC DIVERSITY followed by a COI of 26%!

Flags Flags Flags. I try to give the benefit of the doubt. So I think, ok maybe they are just putting it in layman terms and CBC and thyroid panel and other metabolic screening is WNL and physical exam has indicated good general health. Then I saw it....HIPS EXCELLENT. Then I noticed the dams DOB. 7/2015...

She's not even 2 yet. I emailed back and asked which organization certified her hips and what specific test determined the clarity of her immune system and whether her cardiac testing included markers for DCM 2, a holter or echo and yep, you guessed, radio silence.



Please be careful and ask to see actual results.

Like you I have spoken to breeders who point to no past issues or longevity in their lines. Ask them to prove it. One sent me pedigrees. I found FIVE dogs just on the dams side that died before age six.
 
#12 · (Edited)
^^^This is becoming more and more true as more fancy genetic panel testing has recently become available.

The genetic testing available for DCM is not diagnostic and not even truly indicative to predict future DCM. Even the VWD genetic testing cannot distinguish between genetically affected and clinically affected.

Health testing and titles are not to be treated as some sort of cursory checklist and "license to breed". Not doing any health testing is unacceptable, imho. It takes research to become an educated buyer who can tell which health tests matter and which are just for impressing buyers.
 
#14 ·
I'll stick my nose in here again about longevity. There is (and has been for years) floating around in some of those very inadequet little books about the Doberman Pinscher and more recently all over the internet a much repeated statement that Dobermans are a long lived breed and that the average age is 15 to 20 years.

DREAM ON!!! Many years ago I was lucky enough to have a friend who read German and spoke German and who spent about 6 years in German shortly before the beginning of WWII. She was kind enough to translate a lot of the German records that never had been published in English and told me that no Dobermans anywhere had ever lived on average 15 to 20 years. She (and other breeders who were breeding in the 30's, 40's and 50's) believed that the information was a mistranslation of a German text about the Doberman Pinscher.

It's still floating around and people are still believing it and passing it on. I know of three Dobes who actually lived to 16 and one of the breeders commented that if she had her way the bitch she had bred would have been humanely euthanized a good 3-4 years earlier as her quality of life was non-existant by the time she finally passed on. But the puppy went to a buyer who did not believe in anything except a "natural" death and she had no control over the decision that we sometimes have to make about when it is kinder to euthanize a beloved pet than hold out for a "natural" death.

So beware of breeders who have long lists of health issues their dogs are allegedly clear of. I could take the most recent senior blood panel for my oldest dog (11+) and list everything on it since his values for anything covered in a normal senior panel are right in the middle of the scale from beginning to end.
 
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