Hungs Iron Kennel + Shady Grove? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 55 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Hungs Iron Kennel + Shady Grove?

Are they working together? I thought I saw it mentioned somewhere before.. I had looked into SG a while back after stumbling upon their FB page. Obvious puppy mill - 3+ litters born at a time. All dogs look overweight and just "off" somehow.. I messaged them playing the role of an interested customer. All they needed was a deposit and you could have full breeding rights to any pup you chose. All was well and good until I started asking about health testing --- then they went silent and I never got another response. Even after telling
them that I wanted to go ahead and pay off the amount for a pup. (Pfft).

I thought I saw on another post that they get dogs supplied from Hungs. Anyone know if that's accurate? And if so, will there be anything done to them as well?
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post #2 of 55 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 06:52 PM
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A lot of the larger scale BYBs sell dogs to each other or else pass around stud dogs.

Sadly, unless they get enough complaints to their local AC, nothing will be done to the ones who bought from Hungs. They'll just keep on keeping on, and getting their dogs from someone else if they don't keep back a few of their own breeding.


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post #3 of 55 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MyDogRulesK9 View Post
Are they working together? I thought I saw it mentioned somewhere before.. I had looked into SG a while back after stumbling upon their FB page. Obvious puppy mill - 3+ litters born at a time. All dogs look overweight and just "off" somehow.. I messaged them playing the role of an interested customer. All they needed was a deposit and you could have full breeding rights to any pup you chose. All was well and good until I started asking about health testing --- then they went silent and I never got another response. Even after telling
them that I wanted to go ahead and pay off the amount for a pup. (Pfft).

I thought I saw on another post that they get dogs supplied from Hungs. Anyone know if that's accurate? And if so, will there be anything done to them as well?


You are correct that there is a connection between Hungs Iron Kennel and Shady Grove.

Jordan Johnson is the brother of the owner of Shady Grove.

She did get puppies from him that she took back to Georgia and she sold them under her kennel name without informing buyers where these dogs came from.

I know this because I have a "Hungs" girl.

I was ignorant when it came to choosing a good breeder. I spent more time researching the actual breed, training etc than I did on what to look for in a breeder.

I saw the Hungs website, such that it was 4 years ago, and although I don't think it was as bad as it was now, I knew that I didn't want a puppy from there.

I live in South Carolina, so instead of getting one from Hungs, I drove over 6 hours to Georgia, only to end up with a dog from the very place I definitely didn't want one.

I didn't find out until about 8 months later where my girl came from. I found out when I registered her and paid extra to get the 6 generation pedigree, that she was a Hungs girl.

To say I was shocked is an understatement.

I don't think she gets puppies from him anymore now that she has her own breeding stock and larger facilities. I don't know this for fact.

She does not health test, nor does she show or title her dogs. She does not screen buyers. If they have the money, she will sell them a pup. Her Dobermans are there to make money off of.

No idea if she got into the business first or her brother, but either way, neither got into it to better the breed.

I won't defend what she does, I know better now, nor would I recommend her, but I will say that she takes care of her puppies and has made a few steps in the right direction. She doesn't offer full breeding rights anymore, or at least so she says on her Facebook page.

Not too long ago, I read on her page that she is offering a co-ownership type breeding program. Ugh. When I read that, she took 2 steps backwards.

It's a sad world we live in where animals are indiscriminately bred solely for the purpose of the all mighty dollar.

Though I wouldn't take anything for the sweet girl I have, I worry what her future has in store for her. With the Doberman breed having so many health issues, I feel my girl has a black mark against her and I'm waiting for the axe to fall. No matter what her future holds, I will take care of her and do anything that needs to be done.

She is 4 years old now and the love of my life. I pray that I have many more years with my special blue girly.


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post #4 of 55 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 07:45 PM
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The quantity!! Holy &%$ Balls!

Looks like Shady Grove (reportedly owned by the sister of the owner of Hungs) is going to be picking up the slack for all of the uninformed naive Buyers that would have normally gone to Hungs. 4 litters in 5 weeks with 25 currently on the ground. Between these two siblings, we are talking thousands of poorly bred Dobermans being sold. It makes me want to vomit. From the FB page:

SGK UPDATE Ė We now have 4 litters due between the first week of November and the first week of December! Unfortunately, Kirra was removed from the upcoming litters list because we found out she is not pregnant. We are now testing EVERY female for progesterone levels when they are in heat to get a more accurate timeline for artificial insemination and to hopefully get better results.
Cinderella and Madie have both come in heat early so their due dates have been changed and will be updated again to be more accurate after artificial insemination actually occurs.
As most of you know things are very busy at the kennel with 25 puppies here!
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post #5 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-01-2016, 10:27 PM
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Iíve been following the SC Dobe rescue with Hungs Iron Dog kennels and the seizure of his dogs. The whole situation is terrible! I live in Georgia and when I was looking for a Doberman I joined this forum. I also never heard of Hungs until I read this forum. I recently purchased a puppy from Shady Grove based on my own research and experience with the kennel and owner, despite the negative reviews here. This is my first purebred dog. Iíve always adopted large breed dogs from shelters, including GSD and Rotts (most were mixed breeds) but I was ready to commit to a Doberman.

When I hear ďpuppy millĒ I think of dirty cages, neglected dogs, and reckless mating/breeding. I visited Shady Grove Kennel several months ago looking for a puppy because it was in a reasonable driving distance and there wasnít any of that. The adults and puppies looked healthy and were friendly, the kennel building was clean and didnít smell of pee and poop, and there were several full-time employees to take care of the kennels and the dogs. Plus, she had nowhere near 100+ dogs Ė I saw about 15 on the twenty-five acres.

Since I had never had a Doberman before, I learned here on this forum about the inherited diseases and testing for them. Thank you!!! I asked the owner about health testing, and she does test her sires and dams for DCM1, DCM2, and VwB. She doesnít do yearly holters, but she doesnít breed carriers to each other. I know because I asked, and she willingly provided the gene testing documentation on the parents of the puppy I chose.

Getting back to the thread topic, I wanted to know what was going on between Shady Grove and Hungs. Instead of relying on internet accusations, rumors and gossip, I called her and asked. Yup, I went right to the source. I tend to be direct, and I donít pretend to be something Iím not and then readily admit my intentional deceit on the internet forums. She said she had purchased puppies from him in the past when first starting out; he was not her brother; and yes, some of her dogs have Hungs in their pedigree. She also said that she hadnít had any dealings with him in a couple of years. I believe her. No, she doesnít show her dogs, but thatís not her clientele. Her puppies are a generation or two away from Grand Champions. Not everyone is looking for an expensive show dog. There a lot of us that want a good quality Doberman for a relatively reasonable price. (donít refer me to the many threads here about I only want a companion, not a show dog. Iíve read them.)

And yes, itís a commercial kennel. A couple of times a year, she has several litters born close together, and then there will be several months with no litters. Thatís the nature of Damsí twice a year heat cycles. But itís nowhere near a BYB or a puppy mill. Shady Grove stopped giving breeding rights earlier this year, and there's still a waiting list with the puppies sold months in advance of litters born. That should speak volumes.
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post #6 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-01-2016, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
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And yes, itís a commercial kennel. A couple of times a year, she has several litters born close together, and then there will be several months with no litters. Thatís the nature of Damsí twice a year heat cycles. But itís nowhere near a BYB or a puppy mill. Shady Grove stopped giving breeding rights earlier this year, and there's still a waiting list with the puppies sold months in advance of litters born. That should speak volumes.
Okay, by her own admission, she has purchased breeding stock from a known large-scale BYB, doesn't title her dogs in anything, doesn't do some important health testing, (PDK4 clear dogs can develop DCM by the way), and frequently has more than one litter one the ground.

Being a BYB/puppymill isn't just about facilities and/or volume, it's a mindset. And what you just described is the mindset of a BYB/puppymill.


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post #7 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
Iíve been following the SC Dobe rescue with Hungs Iron Dog kennels and the seizure of his dogs. The whole situation is terrible! I live in Georgia and when I was looking for a Doberman I joined this forum. I also never heard of Hungs until I read this forum. I recently purchased a puppy from Shady Grove based on my own research and experience with the kennel and owner, despite the negative reviews here. This is my first purebred dog. Iíve always adopted large breed dogs from shelters, including GSD and Rotts (most were mixed breeds) but I was ready to commit to a Doberman.



When I hear ďpuppy millĒ I think of dirty cages, neglected dogs, and reckless mating/breeding. I visited Shady Grove Kennel several months ago looking for a puppy because it was in a reasonable driving distance and there wasnít any of that. The adults and puppies looked healthy and were friendly, the kennel building was clean and didnít smell of pee and poop, and there were several full-time employees to take care of the kennels and the dogs. Plus, she had nowhere near 100+ dogs Ė I saw about 15 on the twenty-five acres.



Since I had never had a Doberman before, I learned here on this forum about the inherited diseases and testing for them. Thank you!!! I asked the owner about health testing, and she does test her sires and dams for DCM1, DCM2, and VwB. She doesnít do yearly holters, but she doesnít breed carriers to each other. I know because I asked, and she willingly provided the gene testing documentation on the parents of the puppy I chose.



Getting back to the thread topic, I wanted to know what was going on between Shady Grove and Hungs. Instead of relying on internet accusations, rumors and gossip, I called her and asked. Yup, I went right to the source. I tend to be direct, and I donít pretend to be something Iím not and then readily admit my intentional deceit on the internet forums. She said she had purchased puppies from him in the past when first starting out; he was not her brother; and yes, some of her dogs have Hungs in their pedigree. She also said that she hadnít had any dealings with him in a couple of years. I believe her. No, she doesnít show her dogs, but thatís not her clientele. Her puppies are a generation or two away from Grand Champions. Not everyone is looking for an expensive show dog. There a lot of us that want a good quality Doberman for a relatively reasonable price. (donít refer me to the many threads here about I only want a companion, not a show dog. Iíve read them.)



And yes, itís a commercial kennel. A couple of times a year, she has several litters born close together, and then there will be several months with no litters. Thatís the nature of Damsí twice a year heat cycles. But itís nowhere near a BYB or a puppy mill. Shady Grove stopped giving breeding rights earlier this year, and there's still a waiting list with the puppies sold months in advance of litters born. That should speak volumes.


When I got my girl 4 years ago, I didn't get her registration papers at the time I picked her up. I was told that she had to get them from her "partner". There was no mention of a "partner" until that day. Never once in all of our phone conversations, was that brought up at all.

I'll have to go back and check to see exactly when I finally got her papers, but from what I remember, it was several months. Some of my contact with her was through email and some by phone. I believe it was a phone conversation that she mentioned the word "brother". If I am wrong, then I'm wrong. It was definitely not intentional.

Brother or not, she was not forth coming on where these dogs came from in our initial conversation. I was led to believe, maybe my own fault, that these dogs were hers.

4 years ago, she was also breeding Chihuahuas. 4 years ago, she didn't have that nice big building. She had outside kennels.

I will agree with you that she takes good care of the puppies. My girl had a complete shot and worming record where she put a label and dates on each time it was given.

As far as the dogs she breeds. 4 years ago, she didn't test. I'm glad she does now. That's a step in the right direction. 4 years ago, and up until March of this year, she gave full breeding rights. Her Facebook page now lists upcoming breeding and at the bottom it says that clients making deposits after March 3rd that want breeding rights, must contact her. I guess that will go along with her breeding program where she uses clients dogs.

She breeds her own Dams too often, meaning consecutive heat cycles. That is not good for the Dam. From what I understand, most reputable breeders would only breed once a year or every two years. On her Facebook, she posted a waiting list and upcoming litters. On that list for November is Gracie who had pups on 04/03/16 and Cinderella who had pups either the end of May or first part of June. How is that not "reckless" breeding practices?

The thing that bothers me the most is that when she got these puppies from her "partner" how could she not know the conditions they were in? Maybe he brought them to her. Who knows. But she should have known in my opinion. My girl has an improperly docked tail that has scar tissue and bothers her at times. Now I know why. That idiot at Hungs probably did it himself. Shouldn't she had known or saw that her tail was not right and had something done about it?

I do believe she has made improvements from where she was several years ago, but bottom line, testing or no testing, she breeds her poor Dams too often solely to make money and that is not good for the animal.




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post #8 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
Since I had never had a Doberman before, I learned here on this forum about the inherited diseases and testing for them. Thank you!!! I asked the owner about health testing, and she does test her sires and dams for DCM1, DCM2, and VwB. She doesn’t do yearly holters, but she doesn’t breed carriers to each other. I know because I asked, and she willingly provided the gene testing documentation on the parents of the puppy I chose.
Unfortunately genetic testing for DCM is basically meaningless at this time and there are many examples of clears dropping dead of DCM. She does these tests probably because they are one time and inexpensive. Actually the DCM2 test only became available this year, so she couldn't have been breeding "clear to clear" on that test over the years (no one could have). The fact that she doesn't do holters AND echocardiograms prior to breeding and at least on a yearly basis on all the breeding stock is very troublesome. Plus there are many other health tests you don't mention there that should be done prior to breeding.

Dobermans are not kennel dogs, they need to live in a home with close companionship to humans.

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post #9 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 06:07 AM
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Doberpappa, who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself?


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post #10 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
When I hear ďpuppy millĒ I think of dirty cages, neglected dogs, and reckless mating/breeding.
So do many people, but hey, Kimbertal has a beautiful, clean facility...and they're pumping out litters by the hundreds.

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post #11 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 11:01 PM
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I was hesitant to wade into this mess because I knew there would be strong opposition. I only wanted to convey my own personal experience. I'm not going to respond to each comment, nor defend any individual or kennel because that would be fruitless, so I'll just leave these thoughts and then let y'all get back to your witch hunt.

There's a pervasive mindset here that only titled show dogs with all clear genetic markers should be bred, and only one litter per year should be bred by families who keep their one or two champion show dogs in their house. (Which aren't inspected by AKC, nor licensed and inspected by the state.) If that were the case, the Doberman breed would have such a limited gene pool it would become extinct.

Y'all can be as condescending as you want, but there's a reason why good commercial breeders are successful and their dogs are in demand, such as Kimbertal. If you feel the need to shame irresponsible breeders, go after the real BYBs who post pics of their unregistered pups wallowing in their backyard dirt on Craigslist.

Finally, a little sound advice: be careful about rumors or statements you post on the Internet about any person or business. There are a lot of negative recommendations and statements on this site about breeders all over the country. If any of them can prove they lost business because of a post, the anonymous screen name is no protection. This is not a threat in any way, just someone who's seen it happen in real life.
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post #12 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
I was hesitant to wade into this mess because I knew there would be strong opposition. I only wanted to convey my own personal experience. I'm not going to respond to each comment, nor defend any individual or kennel because that would be fruitless, so I'll just leave these thoughts and then let y'all get back to your witch hunt.

There's a pervasive mindset here that only titled show dogs with all clear genetic markers should be bred, and only one litter per year should be bred by families who keep their one or two champion show dogs in their house. (Which aren't inspected by AKC, nor licensed and inspected by the state.) If that were the case, the Doberman breed would have such a limited gene pool it would become extinct.

Y'all can be as condescending as you want, but there's a reason why good commercial breeders are successful and their dogs are in demand, such as Kimbertal. If you feel the need to shame irresponsible breeders, go after the real BYBs who post pics of their unregistered pups wallowing in their backyard dirt on Craigslist.

Finally, a little sound advice: be careful about rumors or statements you post on the Internet about any person or business. There are a lot of negative recommendations and statements on this site about breeders all over the country. If any of them can prove they lost business because of a post, the anonymous screen name is no protection. This is not a threat in any way, just someone who's seen it happen in real life.
Seriously?

Go fly a kite Jordan....
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post #13 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
I was hesitant to wade into this mess because I knew there would be strong opposition. I only wanted to convey my own personal experience. I'm not going to respond to each comment, nor defend any individual or kennel because that would be fruitless, so I'll just leave these thoughts and then let y'all get back to your witch hunt.



There's a pervasive mindset here that only titled show dogs with all clear genetic markers should be bred, and only one litter per year should be bred by families who keep their one or two champion show dogs in their house. (Which aren't inspected by AKC, nor licensed and inspected by the state.) If that were the case, the Doberman breed would have such a limited gene pool it would become extinct.



Y'all can be as condescending as you want, but there's a reason why good commercial breeders are successful and their dogs are in demand, such as Kimbertal. If you feel the need to shame irresponsible breeders, go after the real BYBs who post pics of their unregistered pups wallowing in their backyard dirt on Craigslist.



Finally, a little sound advice: be careful about rumors or statements you post on the Internet about any person or business. There are a lot of negative recommendations and statements on this site about breeders all over the country. If any of them can prove they lost business because of a post, the anonymous screen name is no protection. This is not a threat in any way, just someone who's seen it happen in real life.


Doberpapa, you told us about your experience and I gave mine.

For what it's worth, I liked the owner that I got my dog from. She seemed very nice and I said that she takes good care of her puppies. I do think she cares, but by these breedings being her livelihood, I don't think she is doing right by the Dans of these litters.

If she did ALL of the tests a breeder should do, if she only bred her females at most, once per year, I don't think some people on this forum would disagree so much.

She takes care of the puppies yes, but she is not doing right by their Mothers in my opinion.

I'm glad you had a good experience and I pray that your pup gives you many healthy years of companionship as I hope my girl does with me.

I just feels our odds would have been much better if she did everything that is available to assure us of that.

Good luck with your pup.


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post #14 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluedobie View Post

Jordan Johnson is the brother of the owner of Shady Grove....


She does not health test.....


No idea if she got into the business first or her brother, but either way, neither got into it to better the breed....


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Sheesh, I wasn't going to go there, but I can't let these stand. These aren't opinions, but statements of fact that are viewable by the public. Prove them, or remove them.

Now I'm wondering how many of the posts and reviews of Doberman breeders here are accurate. ???
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post #15 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 11:47 PM
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Seriously?

Go fly a kite Jordan....
I'm not Jordan. Never met the guy. 😂🙄
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post #16 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-02-2016, 11:53 PM
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I'm not Jordan. Never met the guy. 😂🙄
That was a snarky reference to the current Hung Iron Kennels disaster. Sorry you didn't pick up on it. Or would you like to defend him also?

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post #17 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 12:01 AM
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[QUOTE=DoberPappa;3729169]Sheesh, I wasn't going to go there, but I can't let these stand. These aren't opinions, but statements of fact that are viewable by the public. Prove them, or remove them.



Now I'm wondering how many of the posts and reviews of Doberman breeders here are accurate. ???[/

I already explained the "brother" issue on a previous post. I'm only going by what she told me. I'm not crazy, I know what I heard. If he is not her brother, then I stand corrected.

As far as the others you list, MY dogs Sire and Dam were not health tested which is a fact because it came from her mouth to my ears and the fact she got her from Hungs. Maybe my "statement" should have said that testing for Vwd, DCM1 and 2 is not adequate in my opinion.

In my opinion, based on her practices, she didn't get into breeding to improve the Doberman line.

I understand your point in the way I worded my post. I will say now that based on my observations, experience this is my opinion.

Lastly, everything I said based on my personal experience was accurate and truthful. I can show anyone a copy of my girls pedigree as well as a picture of her butchered tail. In my opinion, something should have been done to correct this and I think my girl would agree.


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post #18 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 12:12 AM
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@ Blue

I would say "Don't feed the trolls". But unfortunately, I am more guilty than most in that area.

Not so much on this forum, but catch me on a bad morning in a contemporary news thread.

Oh Well...

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post #19 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 12:19 AM
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@ Blue

I would say "Don't feed the trolls". But unfortunately, I am more guilty than most in that area.

Not so much on this forum, but catch me on a bad morning in a contemporary news thread.

Oh Well...

John


Lol @ John.

Always love reading your posts. You are passionate in your opinions and pretty straight forward. You tell it like it is and I like that.

I don't mind a spirited discussion as long as it's civil and respectful. I always try to look at both sides of a conversation.


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post #20 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 10:18 AM
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You say she health tests, and you want us to prove that she doesn't? How about you post your pup's pedigree, so that we can cross-reference the OFA website, and see what testing they've had for ourselves?

Hint: there are no Doberman Pinschers with "Shady Grove" as a part of their name listed.


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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 11:45 PM
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Lol @ John.

Always love reading your posts. You are passionate in your opinions and pretty straight forward. You tell it like it is and I like that.

I don't mind a spirited discussion as long as it's civil and respectful. I always try to look at both sides of a conversation.


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I so agree! I enjoy reading John's posts about McCoy. I've learned a lot on this forum as a new owner of a Doberman.

And I appreciate Bluedobie understanding that everyone has different experiences and expectations, and that sometimes people (breeders AND buyers) learn and try to do better.
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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-04-2016, 01:10 AM
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You say she health tests, and you want us to prove that she doesn't? How about you post your pup's pedigree, so that we can cross-reference the OFA website, and see what testing they've had for ourselves?

Hint: there are no Doberman Pinschers with "Shady Grove" as a part of their name listed.
Geez, I said I'd walk away from this thread. I'm my own worst enemy sometimes. 🙄 But I'm certain that I never asked anyone here to prove she doesn't health test. I stated that she provided the genetic testing on the parents of my pup when I asked because I wanted a healthy dog. Or as relatively healthy as can can be predicted. I know the DCM and VwB of his parents. There's no reason to put up his pedigree here for several reasons: 1) I will never breed him. 2) I will never show him. 3) I may never register him with AKC (although he is eligible for registration), because he is a companion dog. What's the point of registering him if he's never shown or bred?

He sleeps in my bedroom, we go for lots of walks and play fetch on our land, and visit parks and pet-friendly stores regularly.

Why do you feel the need to examine his pedigree? I certainly hope you're not saying that every Doberman has to be registered and their pedigree provided so anonymous people on an Internet forum can look up your pet on to see if it's worthy of their approval.

Not everyone who loves Dobermans and wants to add one to their family wants a show quality dog, or one to breed. I get that lovers of Dobermans want to ensure the breed is as good as it can be. But if breeders limit Dobe litters to only pedigreed and titled dogs, the breed will die out.
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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-04-2016, 01:26 AM
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OK guys... Me included. Let's give this argument a rest. I'm sure that the mods could step in. But that is totally unnecessary. We all love our dogs and want what is best for them. Let's leave it at that.

Tomorrow is another day.

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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-04-2016, 11:49 PM
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OK guys... Me included. Let's give this argument a rest. I'm sure that the mods could step in. But that is totally unnecessary. We all love our dogs and want what is best for them. Let's leave it at that.

Tomorrow is another day.

John Lichtwardt
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I agree. I wish the mods would delete this entire thread. 🙄
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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 12:14 AM
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Nah... This thread has run its course. Actually, a nice learning experience for all. This is what internet discourse is all about. As long as folks keep it civil, everyone is entitled to their opinion. (I constantly have to remind myself of that!)

John
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